criterionforum.org

denti alligator wrote:Actually, I think a discussion thread is unnecessary, but perhaps something like this ought to be added in the "lists" section with all the other Criterion factoids.

If organized this can be a helpful reference, but if the mods decide to throw this in the LISTS thread, that could be okay.

And I wasn't out to be mean spirited. Certainly the KINO threads are mean-spirited enough. I just think it's a good thing to keep track of nonetheless -- especially for those who may not check out the individual spine threads before buying (or blind-buying) the DVD.

Hofmeister wrote:If I were to venture a guess as to what may have occurred, I'd say it reminds me of a problem one encounters with damaged files/ DVDR; the audio skips back to a previous intact section and resumes after the damaged or unreadable passage.

Something very much like this occurs sometimes when I'm editing video in Adobe Premier (consumer grade editing software, nothing like what I presume Criterion uses). Sometimes when I open a linked audio/video file and drag it down into the editing window, the audio will start correctly but at some point revert back to an earlier part of the audio clip (the video plays on). Like you say, probably due to some corruption in the file, but I think in this case the corruption is introduced when the file is dragged into the editing window. To "fix" it, I simply delete the file from the editing window, reopen it and drag it down... and it works.

kevyip1 wrote:Well, I think it's a reasonable request to add this stuff to the Criterion FAQ. Why is this mean-spirited?

A compendium added to the Criterion Reference thread isn't unreasonable, but a discussion thread on the topic (even in the Lists section) is pretty damn silly. The major issues here have been tossed around at GREAT length elswhere on this forum (Jules And Jim, Kwaidan, Pictureboxing, now M is getting its turn) and the minor issues, as redbill pointed out, are pretty fuggin' minor. This thread really serves no purpose.

Justleblanc, I would suggest compiling this list as the latest section to be added here, and let that be that.

-Toilet Dcuk

Sounds like a plan.

toiletduck! wrote:

kevyip1 wrote:Well, I think it's a reasonable request to add this stuff to the Criterion FAQ. Why is this mean-spirited?

A compendium added to the Criterion Reference thread isn't unreasonable, but a discussion thread on the topic (even in the Lists section) is pretty damn silly. The major issues here have been tossed around at GREAT length elswhere on this forum (Jules And Jim, Kwaidan, Pictureboxing, now M is getting its turn) and the minor issues, as redbill pointed out, are pretty fuggin' minor. This thread really serves no purpose.

Justleblanc, I would suggest compiling this list as the latest section to be added here, and let that be that.

-Toilet Dcuk

The Dcuk has spoken. This thread is redundant.

A FAQ list for reference makes sense, but surely it needs to be focussed on specifically Criterion-induced errors (or at least errors that are unique to Criterion's discs). In no time at all this thread devolved into an open-mike bitch-fest about everything from poor source prints, historical gaffes and the subsequent discovery of better or more complete elements. Still, at least nobody mentioned Michael Bay. Shit.

And we haven't even gotten yet to the inevitable postings that it is a mistake for Criterion to not release anything by Naruse.

Tribe

kevyip1 wrote:I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs.

Wrong attitude. I for my part won't buy the DVD until there is a statement.
Good work Hofmeister.

golgothicon wrote:

kevyip1 wrote:I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs.

Wrong attitude. I for my part won't buy the DVD until there is a statement.
Good work Hofmeister.

Thanks for proving my point. #-o

SncDthMnky wrote:

golgothicon wrote:

kevyip1 wrote:I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs.

Wrong attitude. I for my part won't buy the DVD until there is a statement.
Good work Hofmeister.

Thanks for proving my point. #-o

Of course we can all "live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs", but why should we? Especially since the defect lies not in the source material and no other release shares it. It's particularly sad because Criterion's edition is easily as much of an improvement over the Eureka as the Eureka was over the UFA/Transit disc.

What happened here is that a fault has been added to the film, and this is problematic. After all, Criterion exists precisely because they cater to people who care passionately about films. Therefore it affects Criterion's basics when a mistake such as this eludes them -- or, quite possibly, when such a mistake may even have been induced while the material was in their hands.

I'm not all that certain that this is a minor or negligable issue. This is not about 'perfection'; nobody's reproaching Criterion with anything worse than negligence. But negligence does count in Criterion's field of activity. This concerns the integrity of the presentation, the very basis of Criterion's reputation.

Let's forget even that the mistake affects a major turning point of the plot in M. Think of a film that you care about, any film. Pick any spot, then imagine you're being denied the dialogue of this passage and being fed text from a different passage. In Videodrome, would you mind it if you saw Brian O'Blivion but heard Barry Convex instead? In A Matter of Life and Death, would you mind it if you saw Peter Carter in his burning plane but heard a piece of the opening narration again? Conversely, is it minor or negligable in M because it's not in English?

I agree wholeheartedly that it's not a catastrophe and that it's only a movie. Less than that, it's merely one of several DVD editions of M. But the scene we're talking about is no longer a scene from M.

SncDthMnky, is there nothing in this you can relate to?

the fact that its not english, and the fact that I will most likely never learn much german, contribute to the fact that I really don't care. I would cartainly be in favor of all non-english releases being listened to by someone fluent in both english and the audio's language to prevent this from happening, but mostly to stop people from harping on 50 humans just trying to put out the best product they can. I am very glad you're being civil about this, I just knew someone was going to initiate the inevitable attempt at a boycott. I'm sure I'd be a lot more vocal if it were an italian release, but I still wouldnt care enough to demand reissue, or even a statement, to the effect of why things were changed. eh... we'll see what the others have to say.

Not to be an obnoxious American, but as long as the subtitles are okay, it wont bother me as much.

Making a major mistake regarding the dialog is an utterly trivial problem -- compared to using a less-than-ideal cover design or the wrong type of DVD case.

Hofmeister -- you need to keep things in the proper perspective.

;~{

Criterion should indeed recall this disc -- and fix the problem.

Not to be an obnoxious American, but as long as the subtitles are okay, it wont bother me as much

So basically Criterion can fuck up any soundtrack and you won't care as long as you don't speak that language?

I can't believe this is the general attitude of the forum. Since the earliest incarnation of the board some 5-6 years ago we have bitched about minor details in every release. Even now people make a major fuss about windowboxing. Here is something that is not a wrong judgment, nor a flaw in the original material, but quite simply a technical error by Criterion, and nobody is going to call them on it?

It is eleven seconds. It is a very important line in the dialogue. But, hey, we don't don't understand the language so who cares...!

I thought this board was all about film as an art form and the representation of it, but apparently people's care and interest is limited to covers and cases for the non-english releases.

My (new) copy of M plays the quoted german passage fine, both in the original and the audio commentary. You should ask Criterion for a replacement of yours. And I would find a flaw like this to be very annoying.

justeleblanc wrote:Not to be an obnoxious American, but as long as the subtitles are okay, it wont bother me as much.

Ditto, for this release. If it were an Italian or Frenc or Spanish film (3 languages I can see myself taking at college in the coming years) I would care more, but I would never email criterion to ask them to recall and fix it.

Le Samouraï wrote:

Not to be an obnoxious American, but as long as the subtitles are okay, it wont bother me as much

So basically Criterion can fuck up any soundtrack and you won't care as long as you don't speak that language?

I can't believe this is the general attitude of the forum. Since the earliest incarnation of the board some 5-6 years ago we have bitched about minor details in every release. Even now people make a major fuss about windowboxing. Here is something that is not a wrong judgment, nor a flaw in the original material, but quite simply a technical error by Criterion, and nobody is going to call them on it?

It is eleven seconds. It is a very important line in the dialogue. But, hey, we don't don't understand the language so who cares...!

I thought this board was all about film as an art form and the representation of it, but apparently people's care and interest is limited to covers and cases for the non-english releases.

Stop being so fucking righteous. We as a forum are all for film as an art form, but to be perfectly honest, no one who's been here since the M reissue came out, has been able to find this, and it didnt change the effect the film has on the viewer. We were reading the correct subtitle translation, and didnt know right from wrong. The extra features are invaluable, the transfer is FUCKING AMAZING for a film this old, and It's something I've already paid money for. The only problem I would have with this now is if criterion acts ignorant to emails they have no doubtedly already received, an put out M in HD or some other format without going in a fiing the problem. but a recall and replacement is so damn stupid. We call ourselves their devoted customr base, yet we rake them over the fucking coals every time something like this comes up. Instead of posting errors here in the future, I urge everyone to EMAIL CRITERION about a problem, and wait atleast 2 weeks for a response. The post there response here, or just the problem and the fact that they didnt respond.

Then we can have something to discuss. And if one person says "but what if we buy the release between the time they find out the problem and the time they post it, I would be so pissed!" I'll fuckin' lose it. These are classic films in special editions that deserve our hard earned money.

Galen Young wrote:I just checked my copy of the M Ouch! I'll write Criterion to see if they have replacement available for it. Maybe they were hoping nobody would notice?

I am sorry but... DON"T BE SO FUCKING DELUSIONAL. I can guarantee you, they themselves did not notice or they would have fixed the problem. They have delaye numerous releases because there was something wrong or something missing. They don't have a replacement, and if they ever reissue it, you're going to have to fork over another 30$ for 11 seconds of restored dialog for a language you most-likely dont speak.

good day.

The surprising thing to me is that no one ever notices the relationship between the two most common complaints around here:

1. Criterion should be held accountable for every minor error.
2. Criterion won't release all the Naruse/silent Ozu/Mizoguchi/etc. films they own.

These high standards to which everyone holds Criterion are more than likely the reason they're don't release products for which they can't find superior elements. Why would they release a film that's not in pristine condition when they hear endless and bitter complaints about minor defects on titles--like Jules and Jim and M--which they've spent a lot of time and money to make look absolutely beautiful? I'm not saying anyone's wrong to want to hold Criterion to an even higher standard, as long as you understand that requiring such strict accountability is going to lessen your chances of seeing films you may not otherwise get to see.

I don't speak much German.

I've watched the Criterion (re-release that is) 3 times and never noticed this (although I did notice the flip in Jules & Jim. I thought Truffaut was making a statement on duality. Doh.).

So although M is not a problem to me, after spending all that money putting together a second release you'd think they'd have got it 100% right.

If this was say, a big black through the last 10 minutes of Tunes Of Glory, I wouldn't see this as an issue, as I'm just happy to have a long-forgotten film. However we are talking about the definitive version of a major piece of cinema and considering the effort that has gone into restoring it, I wouldn't mind a seeing a recall (not that I'd swap mine, because like I say, I don't speak much German), just because it is the right thing to do.


Talk of boycotting buying this is hot air. If someone on this forum was going to buy this they would have done so by now.

golgothicon wrote:

kevyip1 wrote:I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs.

Wrong attitude. I for my part won't buy the DVD until there is a statement.
Good work Hofmeister.

Of course I want this mistake corrected. But as I already own 2 other DVD versions (as well as VHS tapes, laserdiscs, etc.; this is one of my most-bought movies), I can live with this for the time being. Let's not become a bunch of nazis about this.

Ya know, it's a good thing that the mistake was discovered, although I would have never noticed (and the mistake is in fact there... I can't understand what they are saying, but reading the script that was posted, I can wing reading German enough to follow it). And yeah, it's not good that this happened.

On the other hand, self-righteous statements to the contrary, the 11 seconds is not crucial information. Even if this were in English, the mistake would have been nothing more than annoying and life, as well as the movie, goes on.

It never fails to crack me up when something like this is discovered and all this silly indignation is posted.

Tribe

1+1=3 wrote:My (new) copy of M plays the quoted german passage fine, both in the original and the audio commentary. You should ask Criterion for a replacement of yours. And I would find a flaw like this to be
very annoying.

Are you sure about this? This would mean they've corrected the problem and re-pressed the disc. This seems hard for me to believe. Does it says it's the second printing?

mine is fairly new, I'll check when I get home.

kevyip1 wrote:Let's not become a bunch of nazis about this.

For Christ's sake, man, get another metaphor.

How about "Let's not become a bunch of child murderers about this."

jasloat wrote:How about "Let's not become a bunch of child murderers about this."

Make it "Jewish child murderers" and we've got a deal.

-Toilet Dcuk

Hindsight Edit: "murderers of Jewish children"