The Musicals List REDUX

[domino harvey]

I assume the answer’s no but what’s the consensus on something such as Ken Russell’s Mahler being labeled as a musical? Asking because it does build enough sequences around the classical music of Mahler akin to a proto-music video for a case to be made of it being a musical but because the music is often used in a way that’s very reminiscent to a standard score, I don’t feel exactly comfortable with calling it a musical just yet until I can get another opinion on the matter.

FWIW, the general protocol for genre/category lists like this has been: if you believe it qualifies, vote for it, and make your case in the thread if you want others to as well. Caveat is that, if you're the only vote for it, it'll get orphaned and you're wasting a spot on your list that could have been used to boost an actual contender. Maybe you like it enough that you don't care about that—and there's a case to be made for that position, as the orphan lists are often interesting in their own right. Since "Musical" is about as hard a genre to pin down with consensus as noir, I expect we'll have a lot of edge cases just like yours.

Broadly true for many lists but the first iteration of this list had more stipulations based on Altman’s definition. I don’t know if I’ll be as hardlined this time, but stuff like concert films and music videos are absolutely not gonna be eligible. So, more guidance will be provided when the list starts

[soundchaser]

Gold Diggers of 1935 and Party Girl - two very different films over the last two nights, but some interesting points of comparison. Both have far fewer musical numbers than I was expecting, and I’d hesitate to even call the latter a musical in the traditional sense. Both involve prior engagements or marriages the audience wants to end pronto. Both have shocking moments of violence alongside seemingly disconnected production numbers. Both are probably not making my list, but they’re worth talking about anyway.

I’ll stretch the metacomparison a bit more and talk about mirrors, since we’re pretending the films are mirrors of each other. Ray uses some notable mirror imagery in his direction - the first conversation takes place in front of a set of mirrors, as we get the sense that most of the girls working at the Golden Rooster are living in a world of images, not reality. Later, there’s a very clever scene in which Charisse’s character is reflected in an unbroken shot lasting several minutes, which contrasts her with Roberts Taylor’s ex-wife. In a sense, she is a mirror image herself for Taylor: his estranged wife comments as such. She’s a second chance for him, even if he’s truly thrown away his opportunity for one. Ray’s direction is the best thing here, which is good news, because the script is pretty thin otherwise, and Charisse and Taylor have absolutely zero chemistry. It’s probably not a new observation to say that it’s tonally all over the place, or a new suggestion to wish this had been a full-blown musical noir - that would have been fun.

Gold Diggers is also kind of all over the place, but in a different way. It’s tonally exactly what it wants to be: a frothy, non-entity of a film right up until the final production number. Some of the comedy works, but not a lot of it. There’s a recurring bit with Anna Russell-soundalike Alice Brady making a humming noise when she’s thinking about something that Berkeley seems to consider the height of comedy, but it lands with the effect of, well, a dull hum. Conversely, Adolphe Menjou and Joseph Cawthorn are a hoot - my favorite non-musical sequence is them dizzyingly arguing about how to split their take from Brady’s “Milk Fund Follies.” But we know what we’re here for. The “Lullaby of Broadway” sequence is rightly lauded, but I also loved the bizarre ballad that precedes it. I won’t spoil the central idea, but I do wonder how much of the budget went to its major prop(s). I don’t really jive with the structure of the Berkeley films I’ve seen so far, where there’s lots of mediocre comedy leading up to the spectacular stuff (and it really is spectacular - if “Lullaby” were its own film, it would easily earn five stars), but they’re a fun way to spend an hour and a half. Also, Dick Powell and Gloria Stuart are the leads. They’re fine, I guess.

[soundchaser]

A dreaded double post, but I have to talk about Guys and Dolls - which existed in my head as a sort of ur-musical, done only in high schools with administrators who found Sondheim too salacious (read: my own high school). Which is to say I wasn't predisposed to like it, and I was worried by Mankiewicz's initial direction, which almost confirmed my worst fears about the sort of "stagey capital-B Broadway show" I'd always envisioned. Then Stubby Kaye started singing, and I remembered just how many incredible tunes there exist apart from my conception of the thing, and I was pretty much sold immediately. Kaye is kind of a miracle himself here, and imo far and away the most successful piece of casting. Every tune he's a part of - hell, every tiny gesture he makes - is solid gold. I gather I'm not the only one to feel Sinatra and Brando are *slightly* miscast, but apart from "Luck Be a Lady" I thought Brando's singing voice was fine. (But then I adore At Long Last Love, so what do I know?)

It's probably a little too long, although I'm not entirely sure what you could cut (maybe some of the Havana stuff? Definitely not "If I Were a Bell"). But it won me over in spite of my own stubbornness. It'll almost certainly be on my list somewhere.

[domino harvey]

If you enjoy Kaye, prioritize Lil Abner next!

[soundchaser]

Definitely moving it up my kevyip for the project now!

[domino harvey]

THE MUSICALS LIST REDUX
(May 11 - December 26)

Select and submit a list of 25-50 feature films, ranked in order of preference. Your top 25 will weigh the same no matter how many movies you vote for (ie your number one selection is worth 50 points no matter how many films are on your list)

PM your selections to me, domino harvey, by the morning of December 26

To qualify for the Musicals List Project, the title in question must be a feature-length narrative film. However, for the purposes of this list, Hollywood revues without conventional narrative, such as Till the Clouds Roll By or Ziegfeld Follies, are eligible. If you are voting for a musical, it also needs to actually be a musical. This, sadly, needs to be emphasized.

FRIENDLY REMINDER:

I feel like we need to embrace the spirit of the list more with the next round. To give a personal example, when teaching musicals last year, I finished the unit with Billy Wilder's Irma La Douce, which of course is a Broadway musical adaptation with all the music numbers excised. We examined how it remained a musical in all ways, stylistically, narratively, &c but one, and it to my eyes is a musical. But at the same time, I can't in good conscience make the argument here that it's a musical and should be eligible, regardless of my personal affinity for the film. Yeah, you could try to shoehorn in Mulholland Dr or something because there's a singing scene, but why are you? That seems to be almost willfully missing the point of a musical list. I still more or less abide by the Vote For It rule, but I wonder if we can't all just agree to take a few personal hits from our contestable favorites at the service of a more stable list-making and discussion process?

TV series are ineligible. TV movies and miniseries (using the American definition) are eligible. Animated musicals are eligible. No documentaries. No music videos. No concert films. No filmed stage performances. Films with staged and structured musical performances by real acts, such as the Girl Can’t Help It or It’s Trad, Dad!, are eligible. Invitation to the Dance is eligible. Narrative feature films about composers, assuming there are multiple sequences of music being played or performed, are eligible. Scott Pilgrim is eligible. If you need an eligibility ruling, just ask!

If someone wants to concurrently tabulate a “Best numbers” list, you have my blessing, but I know for sure I won’t have time or inclination to tabulate a tertiary list

[soundchaser]

Very excited about this project; even just pregaming for it has been a joy.

Capsule thoughts on some others that were either orphaned or left off entirely before:

Little Shop of Horrors - I hope folks have had the chance to re-appraise this one now that the Director's Cut is widely available. Frank Oz's direction and blocking (particularly for a show like this one with very little dancing) are spectacular, and

Presenting Lily Mars - I'm going to get around to the big one eventually, but for now this is my vote for feel-bad Judy Garland film. The third act swerve it takes feels both surprising and earned, especially for a film of this period.

Emmet Otter's Jug Band Christmas - Maybe save this one for the tail end of the project. Terribly affecting, with some fantastic tunes by Paul Williams.

Has Anybody Seen My Gal? - Douglas Sirk's best American comedy by a country mile. Maybe secretly one of his best films. "Garbo laughs"? Psh - Charles Coburn dances.

The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle - It's likely some other Astaire/Rogers films will earn pretty high placements on the final list, but for me this is one of their most joyful pairings - although it may work better in the context of so many "will-they-won't-they" struggles before it.

I'll have longer thoughts on Haut bas fragile and At Long Last Love in the coming months. If anyone needs access to the latter, which I think it's safe to say will definitely be making it out of the Orphans List this time around, please PM me.

[Never Cursed]

domino mentioned this, but I suggested to him a while ago that there be some kind of separate "best musical number" list, which I would be happy to tabulate. The deadline and eligibility rules as mentioned above would apply. I specifically suggested that the list be for numbers from films that one is not voting for on one's main ballot (i.e., that it function as a list for "rescuing" great numbers from movie that otherwise wouldn't merit a vote), but I am open to suggestions if anyone else actually wants to do it and has strong feelings in other directions.

Separate eligibility question: I assume opera films (The Tales of Hoffmann, Zulawski's Boris Godunov) are eligible so long as they are actually made like film musicals (i.e., are not filmed stage performances)?

[soundchaser]

I like the idea - although I know for me it would probably be Busby Berkeley pretty much all the way down. Same sliding scale of 25-50 numbers?

[Never Cursed]

I might want to cap it at 25 because the number of eligible choices are several times larger than the number of musicals and I wouldn't want too many orphans.

[swo17]

Little Shop of Horrors - I hope folks have had the chance to re-appraise this one now that the Director's Cut is widely available. Frank Oz's direction and blocking (particularly for a show like this one with very little dancing) are spectacular, and

Were you eaten midsentence?

[soundchaser]

I was torn between discussing the plant puppetry and the score, and in my haste to decide, I apparently went with neither. So pretend I said something clever about both.

[domino harvey]

Separate eligibility question: I assume opera films (The Tales of Hoffmann, Zulawski's Boris Godunov) are eligible so long as they are actually made like film musicals (i.e., are not filmed stage performances)?

Yes, I won’t go full Altman here. Eligible!

Never Cursed, once you figure out what approach you want to take, let me know and I’ll update the first post

[Never Cursed]

I'll devise some rules once at least 5 users (counting myself, soundchaser, and you I presume) express interest to me

[Dr Amicus]

Looking forward to this, it will give me an excuse to watch something than Hammer and horror…

I’m not looking to actually vote for any, but I can say that some of the recent filmed stage productions that have become more common as cinema screenings have had more cinematic flair than some established “proper” film musicals. A production of The Kings and I from a few years ago was much more satisfying on just about every level than the film.

[therewillbeblus]

I'm game for the best numbers list, but I'd want to be able to include numbers from films I am voting for as well. It'd be nice if some outliers were thrown in, but the list should be reflective of the actual BEST numbers to be able to YT/return to regardless of if you're voting for the film already. I think it'd just be a cool thing to recognize if the, say, 48th film on my ballot contained one of my favorite numbers, but I wouldn't want that to be excluded by rule. Plus I don't think I'd be able to conceive of enough musicals to make that work

[Never Cursed]

That's fair. How do we feel about a 1 number/film cap then? If we do have numbers from the films on the main ballot, I still wouldn't want a submission to contain half the numbers from Singin' in the Rain/The Band Wagon/whatever

[domino harvey]

Presenting Lily Mars - I'm going to get around to the big one eventually, but for now this is my vote for feel-bad Judy Garland film. The third act swerve it takes feels both surprising and earned, especially for a film of this period.

I’m pretty sure I was the lone vote for this last time. Agreed, great and somewhat atypical Garland vehicle. Is this the only WB-held Garland movie missing from Blu?

EDIT I guess there’s still the two Rooney musicals with blackface

[domino harvey]

Looking forward to this, it will give me an excuse to watch something than Hammer and horror…

I’m not looking to actually vote for any, but I can say that some of the recent filmed stage productions that have become more common as cinema screenings have had more cinematic flair than some established “proper” film musicals. A production of The Kings and I from a few years ago was much more satisfying on just about every level than the film.

Interesting. Any non-RH musicals in this format that you recommend? Or these the theatrical live screenings I see advertised every so often and thus unavailable after the fact?

[therewillbeblus]

That's fair. How do we feel about a 1 number/film cap then? If we do have numbers from the films on the main ballot, I still wouldn't want a submission to contain half the numbers from Singin' in the Rain/The Band Wagon/whatever

Obviously up to you, but I don't think it'd hurt to leave that open-ended. Some people might throw in half the numbers in the big films, but I trust that most people will try to diversify. I would look at this particular list as a way to re-appreciate aspects of films I overlooked (rather than familiarize myself with blind spots, which the main list is for), so if someone thinks a throwaway number from a big film is awesome, I'd like to (re)consider that alongside the obvious one from that film that they can't not pick (i.e. "Dancing in the Dark"). I guess I just don't see a need to restrict this

[domino harvey]

Is this a safe space to confess that “I Love Louisa” is my favorite number in the Band Wagon?

[soundchaser]

Presenting Lily Mars - I'm going to get around to the big one eventually, but for now this is my vote for feel-bad Judy Garland film. The third act swerve it takes feels both surprising and earned, especially for a film of this period.

I’m pretty sure I was the lone vote for this last time. Agreed, great and somewhat atypical Garland vehicle. Is this the only WB-held Garland movie missing from Blu?

EDIT I guess there’s still the two Rooney musicals with blackface

Little Nellie Kelly (which I haven't seen) too.

[therewillbeblus]

Is this a safe space to confess that “I Love Louisa” is my favorite number in the Band Wagon?

I don't even think "Dancing in the Dark" is my favorite number either, but it'd feel weird to concoct a list of "bests" without its inclusion

[domino harvey]

I also just love that film gives us two weird novelty numbers (the other being the I Will Die On This Hill That It Rules “Triplets”)

[therewillbeblus]

"Triplets" was the main example I was thinking of when forming my argument. It'd be nice to have a list with that being more prevalent, which people would be more encouraged to do if not restricted to one-per-film, and again - I'd personally use this particular list as inspiration to revisit some of the lesser-appreciated numbers