M: Dialogue Error Disc Replacement

[Hofmeister]

There's a very odd occurrence on the re-released M disc where 12 seconds of dialogue have been replaced by a passage from a different scene. I wonder whether this slipped by the folks at Criterion and the forum (and if so, how). I hope that forum members can help clear the matter.

What follows below is the spoken text (not the subtitles), with the speakers identified and the 'lifted' or re-used part underlined. I use the dialogue as opposed to the subtitles, because in the inserted passage the subtitles still reflect what we SHOULD hear. I'll start with the dialog passage's proper place/origin, followed by what it replaces, and finally by the misplaced insertion; timings reflect total timing on the later Criterion DVD. For the insertion I'll give both versions (what we should hear, what we do hear) to make the issue easier to diagnose.
______________________

Origin, 35:24 to 35:39 (with 35:27-35:39 the part being lifted):

CARDSHARP (standing): "Spitzel! Spitzel müssen wir haben. Wir müssen von den Absichten der Polizei beinahe eher verständigt werden als die Polizei selber." -

FRANZ (seated right): "Die Weiber müssen sich mehr an die Bullen heranmachen! Wie oft ist einer von uns verschütt gegangen, bloß weil ihn das Mädel bei dem er geschlafen hat, an die Polente verpfiffen hat! Jetzt sollen sie mal die Polente an uns verpfeifen!"

The later scene affected is situated at 41:34 to 41:55. There you ought to hear this:

SCHRÄNKER: "Wir müssen die Stadt mit einem Netz von Spitzeln überziehen. Jeder Quadratmeter muss unter ständiger Kontrolle stehen. Kein Kind dieser Stadt darf einen Schritt tun, von dem wir nichts wissen!"

JEWEL THIEF & CARDSHARP: "Ja gut, aber wie?" - "Wer?"

SCHRÄNKER: "Es müssen Menschen sein, die überall hinkommen, ohne Aufsehen zu erregen. Die jedem auf der Straße nachgehen können, ohne aufzufallen. Die jedem Kind in jedes Haus folgen können, ohne Misstrauen zu erwecken." (...)

Instead, you hear (41:40-41:51 was lifted from "origin"):

SCHRÄNKER: "Wir müssen die Stadt mit einem Netz von Spitzeln überziehen. Jeder Quadratmeter-" (breaks off)

CARDSHARP: "-chten der Polizei beinahe eher verständigt werden als die Polizei selber."

FRANZ: "Die Weiber müssen sich mehr an die Bullen heranmachen! Wie oft ist einer von uns verschütt gegangen, bloß weil ihn das Mädel bei dem er geschlafen hat, an die Polente verpfiffen hat! Jetzt sollen sie mal die Polente an uns verpfeifen!" (resumed) "-sehen zu erregen. Die jedem auf der Straße nachgehen können, ohne aufzufallen.Die jedem Kind in jedes Haus folgen können, ohne Misstrauen zu erwecken." (...)
______________________

Now if you went to 41:40 and didn't hear the underlined part; if instead you heard what you should hear, then you definitely own a different disc than I do. Can it be just my copy? I doubt it as the wrong dialogue can also be heard faintly in the background behind the audio commentary. I'm very much interested to learn what you have, and should you need any other data, I'll be more than happy to supply them.

I should add that I am more than familiar with the film and that I followed the restoration efforts closely over the years. The sudden change in dialogue was like a slap to my ears. The mistake described above has never been present in any of the numerous earlier incarnations/ restorations/ releases of the film (nor in their respective DVD counterparts). I won't venture a hypothesis on how the error came about but I guess that, once there, it could remain unnoticed because it affects off-screen dialogue.

Looking forward to your views of the matter!

[denti alligator]

Good job catching that! Indeed this is a MAJOR fuck-up.
You should email Criterion about this. I'm assuming the Eureka version and the earlier Criterion version don't have this problem.

It might be the cut to the shadows on the wall that distracted most of us (myself included), leading us to think that this new dialogue (if we didn't recognize it from earlier--I didn't) was meant to correspond to these figures (who are actually the same ones, but nonetheless, the cut seems at first to suggest otherwise...).

[Tribe]

Good job catching that! Indeed this is a MAJOR fuck-up. You should email Criterion about this. I'm assuming the Eureka version and the earlier Criterion version don't have this problem.

I just cued the original M release, and I couldn't find any dialogue that sounded out of place (of course, I don't understand German), but I could be wrong.

Major fuck-up indeed.

Tribe

[Hofmeister]

None of the previous releases I've seen suffers from this (or a comparable) defect, no matter which state of the restoration they were based on. It's not a question of the film elements at all and seems to have been induced rather late in the making of the DVD. (A future collectors' item perhaps, like a postage stamp misprint?)
This release has been out for some time and I'm sure many more German speakers have it; strange that the issue didn't surface until now. Did everyone else just go for the commentary?

[Cinesimilitude]

A future collectors' item perhaps, like a postage stamp misprint?

What an incredibly large can of worms you've opened. This forum houses people who called Jules and Jim the worst criterion release of 2005 for mirroring 2 shots. This could get interesting.

[denti alligator]

(A future collectors' item perhaps, like a postage stamp misprint?)
This release has been out for some time and I'm sure many more German speakers have it; strange that the issue didn't surface until now. Did everyone else just go for the commentary?

You assume that Criterion will be fixing this problem. I seriously doubt it! But by all means, let's make them aware of it.

I've only watched the film twice since purchasing the new edition. Once for the commentary, and the second time I screened it to a class of undergraduates who have no German. I might have registered that there was something odd going on with the audio in that scene, but I was surely distracted by the subtitles, which--even when I know the language being spoken--I paid more attention to than usual.

[Tribe]

A future collectors' item perhaps, like a postage stamp misprint?

What an incredibly large can of worms you've opened. This forum houses people who called Jules and Jim the worst criterion release of 2005 for mirroring 2 shots. This could get interesting.

Not only that....they didn't even realize it was the "worst criterion" until they saw it on DVDBeaver.

While I was watching the re-issue today, trying to "see" if my ear could catch the foul-up, I still find this an impressive release, and likely still the definitive R1 version of M for quite some time.

Tribe

[miless]

Not only that....they didn't even realize it was the "worst criterion" until they saw it on DVDBeaver

It looks fine on DVDBeaver to me... I would say "Worst Criterion" would go to any number of the early DVD releases that are non anamorphic, shuch as Walkabout

[kevyip1]

I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs. I just have to wonder why they managed to effed up what should've been a straightforward audio transfer from an existing source. Why was there a need to edit that particular part of the audio in the first place? Also, I hope they would offer some kind official notice this time. Is it true that there's still no official acknowledgment about the image-flipping in "Jules and Jim"?

[miless]

I guess I can live with 11 seconds of misplaced dialogs. I just have to wonder why they managed to effed up what should've been a straightforward audio transfer from an existing source. Why was there a need to edit that particular part of the audio in the first place? Also, I hope they would offer some kind official notice this time. Is it true that there's still no official acknowledgment about the image-flipping in "Jules and Jim"?

it is quite possible that the error was in the restoration done by the munich film museum

[Hofmeister]

it is quite possible that the error was in the restoration done by the munich film museum

No, this mistake is not part of any of the film restorations. Both the Munich and the subsequent Berlin restoration are fine. I've seen prints of both restorations projected on several occasions. (As for DVDs, an early Munich version was used on the first Criterion release, while Berlin formed the basis of the Eureka and the UFA/Transit Film releases. Once again, none of them displays that mistake.)

Broadly speaking, the work done in Munich brought together the contents. Berlin then built on this when they gained access to earlier generation elements which had not been available to Munich. Berlin also chose to go digital, which is why there's room for two restorations: One produced with only optical and photochemical means, and one which left the realm of film for 'prettification' and returned in a more impressive form (but with drawbacks from a purist point of view, which of course are moot in the video realm).

Let me set the record straight again if necessary: What we are talking about is not a defect inherent in the film elements. The film looks and sounds excellent. If I were to venture a guess as to what may have occurred, I'd say it reminds me of a problem one encounters with damaged files/ DVDR; the audio skips back to a previous intact section and resumes after the damaged or unreadable passage.

[Le Samouraï]

I would be really interested to hear what Criterion has to say about this.

I have the Eureka DVD and was thinking about buying the Criterion, but I guess I won't be doing that now. I speak German fluent, so any problems with the soundtrack would be very noticeable to me.

[justeleblanc]

In light of the recent M revelation, it might be a good idea to compile every other Criterion errors into one thread for an easy reference. Right now the ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

M - dialogue/audio incorrect for one scene
Jules and Jim - flipped image in one scene
The Golden Coach - final minutes not restored

Others may know more about incorrect aspect ratios or a complete list of titles that are windowboxed.

[dadaistnun]

There's that "blueout" (as opposed to "blackout") in Black Narcissus.

[denti alligator]

Incorrect AR on Discreet Charm, Gertrud, Le Million, Marriage of Maria Brown. (Others?)

[montgomery]

The very long and brilliant opening crane shot in Ugetsu is ruined on Criterion's DVD (not their LD), when a several-second shot of a foggy lake is overlayed (not spliced) in the middle of it.

[Narshty]

Inspiring this forum.

[J M Powell]

- 5.1 audio mixes on "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" are missing the foley track (CC's excuse is that these were the only elements the studio could provide; apparently we're supposed to believe that the discrete foley track has been lost for this film and survives only as integrated into the 2.0 mix).

- Botched audio throughout "Alexander Nevsky" (probably as "restored" by the Russians, who seem to have overdubbed new audio elements where none originally existed).

- Pictureboxing.

[miless]

it has to do with source material, most likely, but about 10-15 seconds of a shot (not the whole shot, but only confined to the latter half of that one shot) in Viridiana is from a degraded low-contrast print (the source material was probably deteriorated and they had to augment with another source material, probably an old theatrical print)

[Tribe]

- Pictureboxing.

That's not a mistake...they did that on purpose. reasonable minds can differ on whether that's a fuck-up.

Tribe

[manicsounds]

Kwaidan was the shorter edit of the film
Gimme Shelter's radio corespondence goes haywire in the middle
Stray Dog on one menu screen says "KUROWSAWA"

[Napoleon]

it has to do with source material, most likely, but about 10-15 seconds of a shot (not the whole shot, but only confined to the latter half of that one shot) in Viridiana is from a degraded low-contrast print (the source material was probably deteriorated and they had to augment with another source material, probably an old theatrical print)

That isn't an error. Its called making the best of what you've got.

[Matt]

The individual threads for each disc are rife with discussion on all of these gaffes. Is another list really necessary? It seems so silly, negative, and mean-spirited.

[denti alligator]

The individual threads for each disc are rife with discussion on all of these gaffes. Is another list really necessary? It seems so silly, negative, and mean-spirited.

Actually, I think a discussion thread is unnecessary, but perhaps something like this ought to be added in the "lists" section with all the other Criterion factoids.

[montgomery]

I think this thread is useful and could be a necessary resource.
I don't think it's mean-spirited; on a forum called "criterionforum" that is devoted to The Criterion Collection, where people come to discuss (and possibly obsess over) the details of each release--and to celebrate and pay tribute the films, and the collection--I hardly see one lone Topic that deals with Criterion's mistakes, which are not always minor, as "silly, negative or mean-spirited."