Vinegar Syndrome and Their Partner Labels

[jt938]

Cutter’s Way vs Married to the Mob: which film will win the boutique label hopping trophy?

The Breathless remake.

[dwk]

plus the debut duo from our latest Sub-Label, Iconoscope

They have lost their fucking minds with the number of sublabels that they have created. For anyone wanting to keep track, this is the 9th VS sublabel.

That counting the 3 or 4 sublabels of their porn sublabel?

[Finch]

Are the Cinematographe releases available as LEs and regulars at the same time or do you have to wait for the LE to sell out? I've heard worrying things about the discs getting damaged in the LE packaging. I can't abide the media book style packaging anyway.

[jt938]

Are the Cinematographe releases available as LEs and regulars at the same time or do you have to wait for the LE to sell out? I've heard worrying things about the discs getting damaged in the LE packaging. I can't abide the media book style packaging anyway.

They have to sell out first.

[Matt]

They have lost their fucking minds with the number of sublabels that they have created. For anyone wanting to keep track, this is the 9th VS sublabel.

Let's see, in the main line we've got:

1. Vinegar Syndrome (original recipe)
2. Vinegar Syndrome Archive ("forgotten cinematic oddities from the video store era")
3. Vinegar Syndrome Labs ("testing area for releasing genres and eras of film that one might not immediately expect to come from VS")
4. Vinegar Syndrome Pictures (debut releases of contemporary genre films?)
5. Vinegar Syndrome Ultra ("extravagant UHD/Blu releases of ‘major’ 80s and 90s titles that might not always fit into the regular VS milieu")
6. Cinématographe ("auteur driven studio films" - '60s-'90s)
7. Degausser Video (shot-on-video genre films)
8. Distribpix (sexploitation/softcore)
9. Pink Line (Asian erotic films, "pink" films)
10. Iconoscope (???)

I can't figure out which of the Mélusine labels are VS and which are partner labels.

[Finch]

Are the Cinematographe releases available as LEs and regulars at the same time or do you have to wait for the LE to sell out? I've heard worrying things about the discs getting damaged in the LE packaging. I can't abide the media book style packaging anyway.

They have to sell out first.

Thanks! If it's Married to the Mob, then the wait for Radiance (likeliest UK label to do this after the Cutter's Way announcement) to come through is going to be challenging. I love this film to death.

[jt938]

Are the Cinematographe releases available as LEs and regulars at the same time or do you have to wait for the LE to sell out? I've heard worrying things about the discs getting damaged in the LE packaging. I can't abide the media book style packaging anyway.

They have to sell out first.

Thanks! If it's Married to the Mob, then the wait for Radiance (likeliest UK label to do this after the Cutter's Way announcement) to come through is going to be challenging. I love this film to death.

I love it as well, been waiting for a good release of it for ages it feels.

[dwk]

They have lost their fucking minds with the number of sublabels that they have created. For anyone wanting to keep track, this is the 9th VS sublabel.

Let's see, in the main line we've got:

1. Vinegar Syndrome (original recipe)
2. Vinegar Syndrome Archive ("forgotten cinematic oddities from the video store era")
3. Vinegar Syndrome Labs ("testing area for releasing genres and eras of film that one might not immediately expect to come from VS")
4. Vinegar Syndrome Pictures (debut releases of contemporary genre films?)
5. Vinegar Syndrome Ultra ("extravagant UHD/Blu releases of ‘major’ 80s and 90s titles that might not always fit into the regular VS milieu")
6. Cinématographe ("auteur driven studio films" - '60s-'90s)
7. Degausser Video (shot-on-video genre films)
8. Distribpix (sexploitation/softcore)
9. Pink Line (Asian erotic films, "pink" films)
10. Iconoscope (???)

I can't figure out which of the Mélusine labels are VS and which are partner labels.

I think the following are considered sublabels of Mélusine
Quality X
Command Cinema
Distribpix
Peekarama
Pink Line
Mitchell Brothers Film Group

VS had another sublabel that is now defunct: Etiquette Picture.

[Peacock]

I think the number of sub labels is great. Vinegar Syndrome is obviously doing well financially, so why complain about them diversifying and releasing more titles? Or are people saying they wish they had never made Cinématographe?

It feels strange that people are complaining about more stuff being put out. I wonder if these people complained about the Eclipse line by Criterion? If Criterion was to release a silent film sub label or a Japanese classics sub label would people complain? It would mean more regular releases of titles they have been sitting on.

The only downside I see is it’s a bit confusing what some of the differences are between the labels without refreshing your memory each time, but that’s very much first world problems.

[domino harvey]

VS operates on a subscription model but as they’ve grown they’ve increased overall output but diluted the subscriber benefit by increasingly releasing more titles that are not eligible. The multitude of offshoots also points to a lack of brand cohesion

And yes, of course people complained about Eclipse! “These movies are streaming so why release them on disc without extras”, etc

[CSM126]

They have lost their fucking minds with the number of sublabels that they have created. For anyone wanting to keep track, this is the 9th VS sublabel.

Let's see, in the main line we've got:

1. Vinegar Syndrome (original recipe)
2. Vinegar Syndrome Archive ("forgotten cinematic oddities from the video store era")
3. Vinegar Syndrome Labs ("testing area for releasing genres and eras of film that one might not immediately expect to come from VS")
4. Vinegar Syndrome Pictures (debut releases of contemporary genre films?)
5. Vinegar Syndrome Ultra ("extravagant UHD/Blu releases of ‘major’ 80s and 90s titles that might not always fit into the regular VS milieu")
6. Cinématographe ("auteur driven studio films" - '60s-'90s)
7. Degausser Video (shot-on-video genre films)
8. Distribpix (sexploitation/softcore)
9. Pink Line (Asian erotic films, "pink" films)
10. Iconoscope (???)

I can't figure out which of the Mélusine labels are VS and which are partner labels.

Don’t forget Reviver.

[Matt]

I think it's just plain confusing, and the fact that subscribers get none of the sublabel releases is probably frustrating for some people. Of course most of these sublabels exist because subscribers complained about getting types of films they didn't want.

And don't underestimate what home video collectors will complain about! There is someone in another thread complaining about the existence of Criterion's "Criterion Premieres" sublabel. (BTW, Eclipse was originally meant to be Criterion's genre film sublabel.)

[Peacock]

VS operates on a subscription model but as they’ve grown they’ve increased overall output but diluted the subscriber benefit by increasingly releasing more titles that are not eligible. The multitude of offshoots also points to a lack of brand cohesion

And yes, of course people complained about Eclipse! “These movies are streaming so why release them on disc without extras”, etc

Indeed, but no one seems to be complaining about Eclipse now is my point, we likely wouldn’t have gotten all those Kiarostami’s etc otherwise.

Arrow is an example of a label which has become more narrow in their curation in some ways, doing away with Arrow Academy and leaning more into horror and studio releases. Am I the only one who misses the Academy line? I don’t agree that a lack of brand cohesion is an issue personally.

I can see why VS subscribers might be upset, but VS puts out so much schlock around the occasional diamonds that I’ve never understood why people here would subscribe in the first place…

I think Matt hit the nail on the head!

[ryannichols7]

I think that's different though as we very clearly have a for all intents and purposes continuation of Arrow Academy in Radiance, complete with many of the same directors we saw from AA. Arrow still do Academy-like releases here and there, I don't count them out entirely, but I do admire their laser sharp focus on releasing definitive editions of a lot of big titles. their curation is significantly better than when they first killed off AA

as for Vinegar Syndrome, I do enjoy our forum's growing collective distaste towards their wacky practices. so now Cinematographie is just focusing on 4K upgrading previous partner label releases? another new label? come on folks, what are we doing here. obviously I'm not in their target market at all and fully recognize that, but even I feel like they could run things a lot better than they do

[BoltzmannBrain]

Are the Cinematographe releases available as LEs and regulars at the same time or do you have to wait for the LE to sell out?

Neither, as the standard editions are not available on day 1 but you don't have to wait for the LE to sell out. I have the standard edition of Go Fish whose Limited Edition has sold poorly and is not even close to selling out. Other titles that have standard editions even though the LE hasn't yet sold out include Child's Play, Bang the Drum Slowly, Joyride, Female Perversions, and more. The initial plan was to release standards only after the LE has sold out but VS changed this due to customer feedback, as people kept asking for standards, and now standard editions are released a couple of months after the LE.

I think the following are considered sublabels of Mélusine
Quality X
Command Cinema
Distribpix
Peekarama
Pink Line
Mitchell Brothers Film Group

VS had another sublabel that is now defunct: Etiquette Picture.

Pretty sure Command Cinema is not a sublabel, it's a separate company. Distribpix also used to be its own company but by this point Distribpix has merged into VS/Melusine and Steven Morowitz (owner of Distribpix) gets his paycheck from Vinegar Syndrome.

VS operates on a subscription model but as they’ve grown they’ve increased overall output but diluted the subscriber benefit by increasingly releasing more titles that are not eligible. The multitude of offshoots also points to a lack of brand cohesion

If all the sublabel titles were included in the subscription, then obviously the price of the subscription would not be the same but it would be at least twice as expensive and I'm sure they would lose a load of subscribers with that kind of price hike. (The price of the 2026 subscription is $1095; if it was $2K instead I think they wouldn't have many subscribers anymore.) But subscribers do get a discount on all sublabel releases.

[beamish14]

Cutter’s Way vs Married to the Mob: which film will win the boutique label hopping trophy?

The Breathless remake.

I think Miami Blues might take the cake

[Finch]

What gets me is the bad encodes on so many partner labels' discs, Film Movement being the most frustrating one because they have so many interesting titles. I invariably wait for a UK label to treat those films with greater care. I think the only title I bought from VS recently-ish was Southern Comfort and I still hope Second Sight get eventually around to it because VS's grade results in red skin tones.

[MichaelB]

Am I the only one who misses the Academy line?

In what way is Radiance not Arrow Academy V2? Especially since it largely involves the same people and curatorial priorities (i.e. heavy on French, Italian, Japanese and US titles)?

[luxta]

10. Iconoscope (???)

TV

[Peacock]

Just to be clear, both Ryan and Michael have compared Radiance to Arrow Academy. Yes I totally agree there are similarities (although Radiance goes much further), but my point was about single companies having diverse sub labels, not about other labels covering different kinds of films. If Arrow Academy was still around that wouldn’t prevent Radiance from releasing great things, it would just mean more films of that ilk. Obviously it benefits Radiance that the Academy line is dead, but personally I would love if Academy was still around filling in the gaps Radiance can’t get to.

[MichaelB]

Just to be clear, both Ryan and Michael have compared Radiance to Arrow Academy. Yes I totally agree there are similarities (although Radiance goes much further), but my point was about single companies having diverse sub labels, not about other labels covering different kinds of films. If Arrow Academy was still around that wouldn’t prevent Radiance from releasing great things, it would just mean more films of that ilk. Obviously it benefits Radiance that the Academy line is dead, but personally I would love if Academy was still around filling in the gaps Radiance can’t get to.

But Academy and Radiance are essentially the same outfit run by the same people, and I'm not aware of any titles that Academy had access to that Radiance can't get. The only difference is that Fran is in total charge, instead of being answerable to his paymasters at Arrow.

So if Academy hadn't been shut down, there wouldn't be any need for Radiance to exist.

It seems to me that Indicator (which currently employs several former Academy people, yours truly included) and Radiance pretty much cover the entirety of the beat that Academy covered, and to a far greater extent.

[Peacock]

Not even from a budget point of view? I mean Radiance and Arrow don’t share a bank account. How many titles does Radiance put out a month versus what Arrow Academy was able to? Unless the figure is less, then my argument still stands.

I’d rather have Flickey Alley and Kino release silent films than only Flicker Alley, because it doesn’t automatically mean that if the other company doesn’t exist that the label which now has a monopoly will release enough titles to make up for their competitor’s loss.

So my point stands provided sub labels result in even one more title being released than would occur if they didn’t, then there is a value to them.

[MichaelB]

I don't recall Arrow Academy ever putting out more than about two titles per month (sometimes just one), and Indicator and Radiance's combined monthly output will typically quadruple that. And the same people are behind them, applying the same curatorial standards—so effectively the Academy ethos continues to this day, only at far greater volume.

[Peacock]

Exactly! So thank God for Radiance. If we only had Arrow Academy we would have much less titles. If we had both we would have 1 or 2 more a month than we do now.

[MichaelB]

But we don't, because it's the same people doing it. So who exactly would run this revived Academy sub-label who isn't already up to their eyeballs working on other stuff?

I don't think you're really appreciating just how few people work full time in this particular field, which demands a very unusual skillset that's mostly self-taught and learned through extensive experience.