UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

Based on some assessment on the other forum and my impression of the 4K-restored BD, I tempered my expectations for the new Pathé UHD of Le Samourai. I’ve now got my collector’s set and to my great surprise the 4K is FAR better than what’s been said. I’ll claim that this is the best French UHD encode for a catalogue title from a label that isn’t Carlotta. It’s every bit as impressive as what The Jokers have put out recently but I’d give Pathé a slight edge because of how perfect it looks in the often troubling areas like highlights. From what I’ve seen, the UHD has no problems there and retains a very fine, beautiful layer of grain throughout. I couldn’t detect any filtering.
It’s a gigantic improvement to all previous editions, including the Pathe BD which pales in comparison.

The only problem some might have may be the general lack of detail and definition in the source, although this is no fault of anyone working at this disc. When looking at the quality of this UHD, I’m very happy that they decided to do one based on the strengths of the format and not the amount of resolution.

Audio is rough but I can’t say whether that’s also source-based or due to filtering. I hope it’s the former.

Criterion need to work hard to match this quality particularly as the French disc has English subs. In the meantime, Pathé would be wise to issue a standard version now that the CE is generally sold out.

How does the new Criterion UHD compare with the Pathe version praised above?
I was led to believe that they would be very similar, but DVDBeaver seems to be lukewarm about it.

I don’t have the Criterion UHD and am not planning to get it but the Beaver caps look really good. Take them with a grain of salt though. The 4K master is the same on the French release as Pathé and Criterion collaborated on it. Gary / Beaver isn’t the most reliable reviewer in general but here he was seemingly irritated by the “new” look compared to the old Criterion master and the new grade. The old master is flawed but still significantly better than the Pathé HD master and its awful grading. The 4K master looked great to me in DV on the Pathe 4K and it’ll most definitely look just as good in HDR (Criterion). Since Criterion seemingly didn’t botch the encode, you should be safe with your purchase.

[hearthesilence]

If anyone could confirm whether the Blu-Rays of PG&BTK have a good encode, I'd be grateful. The second Preview version is what I'm most interested in so I may go for the Blu-Ray edition instead which is $15 less on Criterion's site.

I might have done this, but since I saved it for a 50% off sale, it's only a difference of $10. I wish they could've tried a real visual upgrade on the second preview cut from the best film elements, but the time and labor would have been too costly.

[bfaison]

If anyone could confirm whether the Blu-Rays of PG&BTK have a good encode, I'd be grateful. The second Preview version is what I'm most interested in so I may go for the Blu-Ray edition instead which is $15 less on Criterion's site.

Both UHDs and the Preview BD have good encodes.

[Finch]

Thank you, bfaison and nicholas! If the Preview BD is good, then the BDs of the other two cuts in the BD only edition ought to be fine as well. I won't be purchasing the film until Criterion's own 50% sale anyway so depending on what else I want to get or not at the time, I may spend an extra $15 on the 4K edition.

[rrenault]

So is PG&BTK finally a red or a blue title then? By the way, I posted some brief thoughts above about the UHD of Army of Shadows, but it’s been lost in the shuffle it seems.

In short, Peckinpah’s preferred cut of the former is still Blu-ray only? Is that correct?

[bfaison]

Thank you, bfaison and nicholas! If the Preview BD is good, then the BDs of the other two cuts in the BD only edition ought to be fine as well. I won't be purchasing the film until Criterion's own 50% sale anyway so depending on what else I want to get or not at the time, I may spend an extra $15 on the 4K edition.

I didn't have any reason to put in the other BD before but I've got it spinning now after reading your reply and the encoding is also very good on that disc for both versions. This is without a doubt a red category release IMO but much like Fear & Loathing I'm not going to argue with you guys about it!

[nicolas]

Thank you, bfaison and nicholas! If the Preview BD is good, then the BDs of the other two cuts in the BD only edition ought to be fine as well. I won't be purchasing the film until Criterion's own 50% sale anyway so depending on what else I want to get or not at the time, I may spend an extra $15 on the 4K edition.

I didn't have any reason to put in the other BD before but I've got it spinning now after reading your reply and the encoding is also very good on that disc for both versions. This is without a doubt a red category release IMO but much like Fear & Loathing I'm not going to argue with you guys about it!

I don’t think there’s any doubt about Pat Garrett being red category if the UHDs are as excellent as the BDs. In this particular case, we can’t really judge the lack of the other cuts and, like the majority of review ratings, can only base our opinions on what is on the discs in order to make a fair judgment for the category. The missing cuts IMO is part of a general content assessment and not the same as technical issues like wrong AR, encoding, bad grading, filtered audio etc.

[Finch]

I wouldn't downgrade this release only because restoring the Second Preview to the same standard as the other two versions may have been financially prohibitive. I'm looking forward to revisiting the film and comparing all cuts in a few months.

[nicolas]

The Dolph Lundgren film Dark Angel, released by Shout, looks exceptional in these caps and could very well be a red category title: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=83

[nicolas]

I’ve got Shout’s Matinee and Purple Rain UHDs. The former is currently in the blue tier but I think it should be in the red one as it’s a huge upgrade compared to the old BD. To my shame, I’ve never heard of the film before the UHD was announced and this is probably for the best as the old Universal master is just awful. Shout’s encode is almost perfect and only has minimal highlight issues in a small number of instances. As some forum members here tend to confuse mentioning issues like that with complaining, I’m emphasizing that this is merely me stating my observations and nothing more. I love how this UHD looks and don’t have to buy any other release of this again!

Purple Rain is not yet listed and it’s a blue category disc. I consider this a disappointment as the film received an 8K restoration by WB. They cheapened out by putting the film on a BD-66 and the encode is clearly affected by this. No compression issues per se but the film looks low-pass filtered and not as detailed as this film has to be in terms of grain definition. I wish I knew if the opticals can’t look any better than they do on the UHD as they’re awful and look DNR’d. Sheri Eisenberg worked on this and since she’s anti-DNR, I assume this is the best it can get. (Bitrates aren’t to blame). The HDR grade is as hot and aggressive as hinted at in the caps we’ve gotten a few weeks ago. From watching select moments, I don’t think it’s a particularly nuanced grade as it favors broad splashes of colors instead of fine nuances. However, the sound mix, created from the original tracks, is sensational and worth the purchase. The film sounds like a live concert with exceptional dynamics in 5.1 but the 2.0 is just as great.

[Finch]

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Criterion) (tied with Arrow)

Blue Sunshine (Synapse) (tied with Camera Obscura)

[Finch]

Le Samourai (Criterion) (relevant post on the other forum here)

Better encode on the HDR10 layer and better audio than the Pathe disc (the Pathe has Dolby Vision). Both discs have grading differences and as with Fear and Loathing, it'll come down to your own preferences but overall, the Criterion edges ahead overall.

[rrenault]

Are we certain the Criterion edition of Le Samourai is unequivocally better than Pathé’s? CC’s looks quite dark to my eyes, and this is the first I’ve heard about compression issues on Pathé’s disc. To me, it seems more like a Piano situation where the CC and SC each have pros and cons.

In short, is it seriously worth a double dip for folks who have the Pathe already, and did the former disc need to removed from the red column? Nicolas said it was the best non-Carlotta UHD encode from a French company he’d yet seen.

[nicolas]

Are we certain the Criterion edition of Le Samourai is unequivocally better than Pathé’s? CC’s looks quite dark to my eyes, and this is the first I’ve heard about compression issues on Pathé’s disc. To me, it seems more like a Piano situation where the CC and SC each have pros and cons.

In short, is it seriously worth a double dip for folks who have the Pathe already, and did the former disc need to removed from the red column? Nicolas said it was the best non-Carlotta UHD encode from a French company he’d yet seen.

This is what I contributed to the discussion on the other forum:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=167
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=170

Bottom line: Both UHDs are at the very least solid with each having pros and cons. The Criterion may be too dark but these are still just early caps and we need to see it in motion. I’ve already decided to get a copy of the Criterion UHD after seeing these caps. The Pathe is recommended for people watching in DV (I can’t emphasize enough how good the encode looks in DV) and those that don’t mind the blue-ish grade, which isn’t a tint and on a properly set-up / calibrated TV, these blues are subdued and make a wonderful fit with the image. It’s undoubtedly a stylized grade according to the old statement by Pierre Lhomme that Melville always wanted a feeling of black and white in color. My first sentiment after putting in the Pathe disc for the first time was that this was faithfully achieved. Whether it’s correct - we don’t know. Criterion went in the direction of grading it “normally”, which they did as they likely didn’t have any authoritative color reference made by the DP, director, color timer etc.

(Another note regarding the Pathé encode: I’ve never scrutinized it in HDR10 or SDR when I praised it last year and again the day before the Criterion caps were posted. I will do so later today and when I see anything garish, I’ll update my posts but from my personal feeling, I don’t think the Pathe turns out unwatchable even in HDR10. Had this been a situation like Paramount and their lousy HDR10 encodes, we would’ve seen traces in DV, such as in the highlights. The highlights on the Pathé are hot and bright but the encode preserves a fine layer of grain, which does take effort and Pathé’s encoder achieved it. The opticals are also not carelessly encoded with low bitrates in the single-digit MBs.)

Should the Criterion be completely free of grain management, it’ll obviously be on Pathé and whoever decided to mess with the grain, albeit minimally. Should this be true, it’s definitely valid to downgrade the Pathe.

[rrenault]

Ok, but based on the screen grabs alone, I’m not really saying what advantages the Criterion release aside from a more “refined, slick, and appealing” color grade that’s nonetheless probably more of a departure from Melville’s original intentions, and there is some noticeable low pass filtering in a couple of the Criterion caps, notably #15 and #20 among the 30 provided in the Blu-ray.com thread. I think people are just falling for slick Criterion branding on this one, but that’s just me. I’ve seen the film multiple times since the DVD era, and the Pathe definitely feels closer to how it’s always looked color-wise.

To keep things honest, I just think we should avoid playing up too heavily the CC’s virtues at the expense of the Pathé’s as if this were a Le Cercle Rouge situation(or a Carrie situation between Shout and Arrow) which it’s clearly not.

[Finch]

I have no horse in this race and no loyalty to Criterion. Fkid felt the CC had superior encoding and audio and that's what my rating reflects. Given that the Pathe does have Dolby Vision and looks great in DV, I'm okay with adding it back in the red column but it feels fair to list the CC as the (marginally) better disc (grading is a toss up). Also, the Criterion extras are English friendly where needed, the Pathe is not. FWIW, I'm happy with the Pathe and will not double dip.

[rrenault]

Fair enough. I just felt the color grading on the CC looked like quite a departure from what one would expect.

[nicolas]

One last update re. the Pathé: I checked the disc in HDR10 and it’s indeed a step down, slightly more than anticipated but it isn’t horrendous. To put it into perspective, I’d be happy if all KL UHDs were encoded like this.

In HDR10, the blue grading is more pronounced and slightly more bright and “punchy” whereas in DV colors appear more subdued and, for my taste, perfect for the film. It’s nothing aggressive and no blanket tint. Highlights in HDR don’t resolve as well as in DV but still better than from other labels, including Criterion. (Criterion and NexSpec have recently changed their encoding workflow to omit the low-pass filter they used forever, however at the expense of clipped highlights if the HDR grade is "hot").
Grain management is more visible in HDR10 than in DV whenever they used it. Opticals in particular don’t look good.

In short, in HDR or SDR, the grain management and some aspects of the encode are bothersome, in DV it’s almost like watching a different encode altogether. I apologize to anyone who bought the Pathé disc and watched it in HDR10 or SDR while anticipating the DV presentation that I praised. I will check HDR layers in the future to make really sure. (I’ve also concluded that this is just fine for what I need and feel is right and will pass on the Criterion).

Finch, are you comfortable with putting the Pathe into the Good in DV category?

[Finch]

Yes sure. OP updated. The Pathe is also listed in the Good to excellent imports tier.

[bfaison]

Glad to see F&L go red. Have any of you emailed them about the B&W>sepia as well?

I really hope Criterion keeps up this trend of stellar encodes. Le Samouraï looks amazing.

[Finch]

Kino's Turbulence 4K is not amazing. No one has reviewed the BD yet but it may be better to go for the BD instead. Blown Away has censored and mediocre audio but supposedly looks good.

[nicolas]

Kino's Turbulence 4K is not amazing. No one has reviewed the BD yet but it may be better to go for the BD instead. Blown Away has censored and mediocre audio but supposedly looks good.

On the other hand, unexpectedly, Narrow Margin, a SDR UHD, looks phenomenal in 4K. I’ve watched the film yesterday and the encode is essentially flawless, even in highlights. What a turn of events. Maybe it is pure luck or someone actually made an effort to figure out their tools. The 4K master is also very beautiful and the improvements to the included, filtered BD are significant for those with large screens. The SDR grade is beautiful and more nuanced than expected. This is their new authoring houses’s best encode to date, at least since The Night of the Hunter.

[rrenault]

Sorry to people if I was getting a tad snappy on this thread before about Le Samourai. I guess I was having some of the sentiments expressed in the Alice Toklas thread echoing in the back of my mind.

[Yakushima]

I watched Shout Factory's 4K UHD of The Boy and the Heron last night and noticed a playback issue affecting the disc at about 1hr:30min time point. The image freezes briefly, and some color artifacts appear at the top part of the screen. Playback resumed without any further problems. I tried to play this part several times, and the issue was always there. Has anyone experienced a similar hiccup with the disc? I am considering exchanging it for a replacement.

Other than that, the presentation was stellar, and the film was as impactful and, I daresay, magical as in my theatrical viewings. This is a great debut for a Miyazaki film in UHD format. I hope the rest of his films will follow in short order.

[nicolas]

I watched Shout Factory's 4K UHD of The Boy and the Heron last night and noticed a playback issue affecting the disc at about 1hr:30min time point. The image freezes briefly, and some color artifacts appear at the top part of the screen. Playback resumed without any further problems. I tried to play this part several times, and the issue was always there. Has anyone experienced a similar hiccup with the disc? I am considering exchanging it for a replacement.

Other than that, the presentation was stellar, and the film was as impactful and, I daresay, magical as in my theatrical viewings. This is a great debut for a Miyazaki film in UHD format. I hope the rest of his films will follow in short order.

Have you cleaned your disc after seeing the artifacts? If cleaning doesn’t help, check for scratches as these are probably responsible for what you’re experiencing. Then you’d need to exchange the disc.