UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

Is that good or bad? How green is it supposed to be?

The Criterion is widely believed to be the most revisionist version whereas the South Korean UHD and French BD are more aligned with the originally intended look.

[therewillbeblus]

Is that good or bad? How green is it supposed to be?

The Criterion is widely believed to be the most revisionist version whereas the South Korean UHD and French BD are more aligned with the originally intended look.

I believe Bong actually cites the Criterion as finally capturing his "original, intended" look, but plenty of us prefer the brighter version for reasons exhaustively stated in the film's dedicated thread

[nicolas]

Is that good or bad? How green is it supposed to be?

The Criterion is widely believed to be the most revisionist version whereas the South Korean UHD and French BD are more aligned with the originally intended look.

I believe Bong actually cites the Criterion as finally capturing his "original, intended" look, but plenty of us prefer the brighter version for reasons exhaustively stated in the film's dedicated thread

It‘d be interesting to know if his original, intended look actually is in a HDR version of the master we‘ve seen in SDR on the Criterion BD. That would make the Criterion master indeed something vastly different compared to the SDR 4K master that‘s making the rounds right now. HDR could make the excessive green more subdued but it’s obviously not guaranteed. If it’s SDR too, Bong and his DP probably just did a regrade as part of their supervision of the Criterion release. FWIW, Bong was interviewed for the French BD that presents the 4K SDR master and the venue was a cinema where he apparently reviewed the master. This may be a second Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas situation with Bong approving both grades.

[nicolas]

Curzon learned from their mistake of cheapening out on their disc encoding and hired Visual Data Media Services, a great authoring house, to do the encoding for Memories of Murder in 4K and BD. The BD in the set is sourced from the 4K master. It’d be a surprise if this isn’t as good as the Korean release.

Paramount’s Team America World Police received a glowing endorsement from Geoff on the other forum. The encode is strong even in HDR10. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=163

I’ve got 88 Film’s Fist of Legend UHD today and it’s more or less a disappointment as the new master was processed with DNR. Intensity isn’t consistent and alternates between shots from mild to severe. Opticals are definitely affected the most. I never saw or owned the film before and when looking at caps from
the less than optimal earlier BDs this film got, this is a definitive improvement but anyone (like myself) expecting an upgrade in the league of most of 88’s great efforts will be disappointed. Sound is sharp and detailed. Encoding is by MJMultimedia Ltd according to the booklet.

[Finch]

Both the 4K and the BD included in Sony's new Steelbook of Taxi Driver have been confirmed as the fixed versions of the new restoration, meaning no repeated shots in the scene of Travis with the gun dealer. The European versions should be identical though for some reason they're delayed till September. Manufacturing issues perhaps.

[colinr0380]

And Nikita (which is how I've always known it; I never really understood why the US distributors fiddled with the title) is pretty much exactly contemporary with King of New York.

I wonder if the title change was to avoid confusion with the now extremely obscure Sidney Poitier and River Phoenix film Little Nikita from the year or so earlier.

[MichaelB]

Very likely indeed, for much the same reason that Neil Simon's Only When I Laugh was given the horrendously clunky UK-only title It Hurts Only When I Laugh to avoid comparisons with the popular ITV sitcom of the era. And in that particular era - late 70s/early 80s - a popular ITV sitcom would have been very popular indeed, to an extent that current sitcom writers can only helplessly dream about.

[nicolas]

Anchorman - The Legend of Ron Burgundy looks like a solid upgrade and, bewilderingly, has one of Paramount's best catalogue 4K encodes: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=185
2010 BD screenshots: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Anchorma ... creenshots

Not enough trustworthy info on the other notable 7/2 and 7/9 titles yet.

[kniselyb]

Has anyone reviewed Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid yet? I hear the picture quality is reference but I am most curious how the new 50th anniversary cut is. I only know the Turner Cut

[nicolas]

Has anyone reviewed Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid yet? I hear the picture quality is reference but I am most curious how the new 50th anniversary cut is. I only know the Turner Cut

There’s a very (!) lengthy thread about the release over at Blu-ray.com which endlessly moved in circles with argument over argument since the UHD’s announcement. It was pointless reading but now that the disc is out, the first round of changes were shared and essentially, from what I gathered, the 50th anniversary version is a close relative to the 35th anniversary cut that was prepared by Paul Seydor for the 2008 (I believe) DVD release of the film. There’s been a constant back-and-forth about the merit of Seydor’s cut and whether it’s merely a “fan edit”. Seydor is an editor and Peckinpah scholar who wrote books on him but didn’t work on the film and based his editing decisions partly on Peckinpah’s visions and, crucially, his own opinion of how certain scenes should look like. Seydor explained his intentions in an audio commentary (which was dissected over at the BR.com thread) on the old DVD. In addition to Seydor’s own editing decisions, the other big problem he faced at the time was a limited timeframe and lacking access to more footage from the film to complete the anniversary cut, which is ironic as Peckinpah faced similar constraints when filming. In short, that 35th anniversary cut wasn’t even fully what Seydor intentioned but it nonetheless became the film’s “main” cut on DVD. The Turner Preview was included on that DVD on disc 2.

The 50th anniversary cut on the Criterion UHD was again created by Paul Seydor and in collaboration with one of the film’s original editor and longtime Peckinpah collaborator Roger Spottiswoode. From reading the forum’s posts, the new cut is based on the work Seydor did for his initial cut and basically completes what he couldn’t finish at the time. He got access to more footage and reworked other things in the film. I’ve not participated in the discussion at BR.com but there’s been a near-constant arguing of two camps, one “pro Seydor cut” and another camp fully against it. The “pro camp” was primarily made up of one user who claimed to have inside sources close to the production of the new cut and this user defended Seydor’s doings. Less than two days ago, with the disc now out, it came out that this user talked a lot of BS re. their sources and that there were inaccuracies and flat-out lies stated by these “sources” and/or the poster to keep up face. This user is now also banned from the forum, ironically.

I haven’t seen the new cut, nor any of the other previous cuts of the film but one glaring change Seydor did was to restructure the opening scene which Peckinpah edited with “trademark” freeze frames even though there wasn’t any doubt that that this is what Peckinpah wanted. There is lots more but you’d need to visit the other forum for details here. FWIW, Seydor also started working with the Aubrey-sanctioned theatrical cut as his basis and not Peckinpah’s Turner preview, which is regarded as the best cut currently available.

I feel like this essentially sums it up. Criterion didn’t manage to license the Turner preview even though they apparently tried according to Mike Siegel, who did the Passion & Poetry documentary, over at Blu-ray.com. However, Criterion DID get access to the Turner cut’s film element in Warner’s vaults as Seydor and Spottiswoode used select trims from that element to complete their 50th anniversary cut. They just did not get the rights to license the actual cut in full. This is very unfortunate and I really hope Siegel got the right info here, otherwise Criterion messed it up.

It’s sad that Criterion invested a lot in this release only to end up with three cuts that are flawed in one way or the other. The second preview cut that’s on the third disc in the Criterion set is the cut that didn’t end up in 4K and also looks the worst grading-wise when judging from early screenshots yet it’s closest to the director’s vision. The 50th anniversary 4k master likely looks magnificent in 4K with great encoding. I think chances are slim that we’ll see another release of this anytime soon.

[andyli]

This conversation should probably take place in the dedicated thread, but doesn’t the inclusion of the second preview cut justify the omission of the first? If people want it they could always check out the dvd that’s available for 20 years.

[dwk]

One problem with the anti-Seydor camp over there, which seems to only be a couple people, is they keep refering to the 1st preview cut as a director's cut, which it obviously, in the way that they mean (Peckinpah's final, preferred version), isn't.

[hearthesilence]

So long story short, the second preview cut is the closest thing ever cut together that could be considered Peckinpah's true vision, and that's included in Criterion's set. So except for the fact that it's the worst-looking version on that set (I saw the caps - very obvious, especially for its sickly, pale yellowish look), that's probably the one to watch if you only want to watch one cut.

[tenia]

The preview cut's grading here makes me wonder if it's been grading by Ritrovata.

[nicolas]

The preview cut's grading here makes me wonder if it's been grading by Ritrovata.

This is what Criterion wrote about it:

[rrenault]

So the UHD of Army of Shadows is definitely a blue column title. The encode is fine, although the master can have a yellowish-greenish hue at times that’s slightly distracting. It’s nothing unwatchable though. It’s a fine presentation for the most part, but the old Criterion blu-ray is still surprisingly robust alongside the UHD.

It’s probably only a necessary upgrade if the film is comfortably within your all-time top 100.

[tenia]

The preview cut's grading here makes me wonder if it's been grading by Ritrovata.

This is what Criterion wrote about it:

Thanks for the detail. It looks like, unlike Once Upon A Time In America's longer version, this grading isn't down to lab, but actually to the elements.

[Finch]

If anyone could confirm whether the Blu-Rays of PG&BTK have a good encode, I'd be grateful. The second Preview version is what I'm most interested in so I may go for the Blu-Ray edition instead which is $15 less on Criterion's site.

[nicolas]

If anyone could confirm whether the Blu-Rays of PG&BTK have a good encode, I'd be grateful. The second Preview version is what I'm most interested in so I may go for the Blu-Ray edition instead which is $15 less on Criterion's site.

I don’t have the BD yet but the screenshots shared on the other forum look surprisingly good for what Criterion considers a mere curiosity: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=728

Another post that shows the grade: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=730

Edit: DVDBeaver has more caps available: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/Film13/blu-ray ... 4K_UHD.htm

The 50th anniversary cut also looks good on BD but the second preview is less compressed than the former and the theatrical cut.

[dwk]

Lee Kline did a lecture about Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid at the Il Cinema Ritrovato Festival, but, if they recorded it, it doesn't look like Cineteca di Bologna is going to post it on their Youtube page and I haven't seen any reports on what was said.

[JamesF]

Lee Kline did a lecture about Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid at the Il Cinema Ritrovato Festival, but, if they recorded it, it doesn't look like Cineteca di Bologna is going to post it on their Youtube page and I haven't seen any reports on what was said.

I was there (and saw the film the day before, though I can't really offer much of value since it was my first time seeing it in any version). Kline gave the talk with Roger Spottiswoode, and it was less a lecture than a gentle conversation with Kline prodding Spottiswoode for anecdotes about how he came to work on the film and working with Peckinpah, who supposedly didn't wake up in the morning until someone roused himself with another bottle of booze at 11am and was rarely in the cutting room, instead preferring to watch whatever the editors had assembled that day. Otherwise, it mainly focused on comparing the new cut with the other versions, in particular the Second Preview Cut which they showed some clips of, with Spottiswoode justifying why the scene with Coburn and the prostitutes was not reinstated to the film, and amusingly declaring a preference for the Pickens death scene without the Bob Dylan vocals even though they are still present in the new version.

[dwk]

Thanks James. I was hoping that it would have been more on the tech side, oh well.

[JamesF]

They might have done and I've forgotten, but my memory is that it was primarily focused on Spottiswoode's involvement in the original editing and the new cut.

Again, take my feedback with a heavy pinch of salt since the 50th anniversary cut was my first and so far only time seeing the film, but I thought it played great, and based on what I've heard, generally feels like it is the least messy and compromised version of the film. I can't fault Spottiswoode's reasons for omitting the prostitutes scene (which, in isolation at least, feels like a deeply stupid and misogynist addition that would only serve to derail the tone and momentum of the film as it reaches the end; at least seeing him dissolutely in bed with them afterwards plays well with the restoration of the wife scene), as well as various additional lines of dialogue that just inelegantly blurt out what plays out just fine in elegiac silence, and an end text crawl that mostly just lists a bunch of names and events that have little actual relevance to what we've just seen.

[dwk]

I trust you memory of the chat. I was mainly interested in hearing more specifics about the elements used for the re-instated bits in the 50th anniversary cut. The anti-Seydor people on the Blu-ray.com forum seem to think that there is a copy of the 1st preview that is suitable for a UHD release and there is some conspiracy from Warner and/or Criterion to keep it locked up.

[kekid]

Based on some assessment on the other forum and my impression of the 4K-restored BD, I tempered my expectations for the new Pathé UHD of Le Samourai. I’ve now got my collector’s set and to my great surprise the 4K is FAR better than what’s been said. I’ll claim that this is the best French UHD encode for a catalogue title from a label that isn’t Carlotta. It’s every bit as impressive as what The Jokers have put out recently but I’d give Pathé a slight edge because of how perfect it looks in the often troubling areas like highlights. From what I’ve seen, the UHD has no problems there and retains a very fine, beautiful layer of grain throughout. I couldn’t detect any filtering.
It’s a gigantic improvement to all previous editions, including the Pathe BD which pales in comparison.

The only problem some might have may be the general lack of detail and definition in the source, although this is no fault of anyone working at this disc. When looking at the quality of this UHD, I’m very happy that they decided to do one based on the strengths of the format and not the amount of resolution.

Audio is rough but I can’t say whether that’s also source-based or due to filtering. I hope it’s the former.

Criterion need to work hard to match this quality particularly as the French disc has English subs. In the meantime, Pathé would be wise to issue a standard version now that the CE is generally sold out.

How does the new Criterion UHD compare with the Pathe version praised above?
I was led to believe that they would be very similar, but DVDBeaver seems to be lukewarm about it.