UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[bfaison]

a different looking movie altogether

This is flat-out BS, but I'll rest my case here.

[Finch]

Interesting that the b/w scenes are sepia in the new transfer. If I was a fan of the film, I'd go with the Arrow myself.

[nicolas]

Interesting differences! I'll stick with my Arrow, which I think has a preferable color scheme for the film. But for those who have shelf space to spare, there's just one more reason to double dip - for the extras and a different looking movie altogether (i.e. Le Cercle Rouge all over again)

Fully agree. I’m also very happy with the Arrow for superior colors in the range alone and obviously the brilliant encode.

[therewillbeblus]

a different looking movie altogether

This is flat-out BS, but I'll rest my case here.

Ok, wasn’t trying to start a fight. And I meant that in a complimentary way. While other people often complain and obsess about deciphering the ‘correct’ color timing, I typically attempt to find a creative way to analyze the movie based on its different palettes, finding merits in each. The caps look.. very different, but that’s not a bad thing to me. Anyways, obviously it’s not a different movie, but I think it’s fun to look at movies that way sometimes (i.e. why does this cooler or warmer or realist or alien palette enhance a particular theme)

[cdnchris]

I don't know, I think I might prefer the colors on Criterion, at least based on those captures. Arrow's has a standard home video look. I should be getting this Friday and I'm curious how it will compare in person, but I was still very happy with Arrow's 4K when I watched not that long ago.

[dwk]

Here is what the booklet says about the Fear and Loathing transfer

Supervised and approved by director Terry Gilliam, this new 4K restoration was created from the 35 mm original camera negative. A 35 mm print, courtesy of Universal Pictures, was used as a color reference
Mastering supervisor: Lee Kline
Colorist: Greg Fisher/Company 3, London

It is a tough one to judge, because it isn't a natural looking film, but, looking at tose caps, often the Arrow does look "too" magenta, while the Criterion is "too" yellow. Be nice if someone could screen that print they used for reference.

[tenia]

I don't know, I think I might prefer the colors on Criterion, at least based on those captures. Arrow's has a standard home video look. I should be getting this Friday and I'm curious how it will compare in person, but I was still very happy with Arrow's 4K when I watched not that long ago.

What's fascinating is that Gilliam supervised and approved both grades, seemingly within less than 5 years.

While other people often complain and obsess about deciphering the ‘correct’ color timing, I typically attempt to find a creative way to analyze the movie based on its different palettes, finding merits in each. The caps look very different, but that’s not a bad thing to me. Anyways, obviously it’s not a different movie, but I think it’s fun to look at movies that way sometimes (i.e. why does this cooler or warmer or realist or alien palette enhance a particular theme)

I think it's a discussion we already had, but while I understand trying to find something positive in such a situation, I think it remains just that. It's just trying to analyse a movie based on an incorrect reference. I can't imagine trying to find meaningful things into a movie being presented in the wrong AR for instance, or an heavily censored version. It looks to me as overanalysis, and I strongly believe that nobody should be placed in a position to do so, just because suddenly, somebody distorded a movie in a un-ethical manner. If a movie that never been a certain way now is, it can't be telling anything about the movie, its helmers etc.

I don't want to have to wonder if Autumn Sonata is supposed to have a very warm palette or a colder one and guess how the movie's look is supposed to be in relation to its thematics : I just want to know what's what, and get that.
I've seen Red Desert with 3 very different color gradings : this is a movie what was lauded for its bold use of colors... but which colors ? I just want to know what was lauded back then and get that.

I get that some people might think it better to find something good out of it, maybe at least for reassurance or because yeah, why not, but this isn't "complaining and obsessing about deciphering the correct timing", it's about wanting to be able to discover movies people like me (37 yo) never saw before, and not wanting to see something that different from what was conceived back then. Most people are perfectly fine with minute differences, because we know it's a fluid target with millions of nuances that even 2 different exploitation prints wouldn't hit in the exact same way. It's okay. But nobody wants a movie to suddenly be drenched in blue or yellow or teal or green or gold if it just wasn't supposed to be.

What Ritrovata and Eclair do recurringly, structurally, endemically, "fit" several of their projects, turning cold cop stories into steely blues and drenching westerns into golden hues... but that's not how these movies were conceived, only how they're handled by these labs are doing for no other reasons that their ways of working. It might "make sense", but I don't care for that : I only care about what was originally prepared, and want to get that. Maybe blues enhance cop stories and gold enhance westerns, but if nobody wanted this back then, why would it be fine now ?

[dwk]

The example of Red Desert is a good one, because, as we know, both the BFI and Criterion Blu-rays use the same scan, but the color timing was based on different references (different prints.) So which is correct? If you happened to see a print that looked like the BFI, then the Criterion is wrong. But if you saw the print that looked like the Criterion, then the BFI is wrong. Without an answer print or color timing notes, how can you be sure if anything is right or wrong? You look for other references and do your best.

I think that this is a separate issue from the lab signature look from Ritrovata and Eclair.

[nicolas]

The Lino Ventura film The French Detective / Adieu poulet was released in 4K by Rimini Editions in France from a TF1 master made in 2017.

This is a very good UHD from an excellent master free of teal, DigiSmear, DNR, raised blacks,… as a competent party did the grading (Lumière).

The encode (BD-66, Dolby Vision) is almost spotless, however some (almost blown-out) highlights don’t look too good but it isn’t the biggest concern as grain exposure is otherwise excellent.

No English subs are available.

I’ll provide screenshots as soon as the disc can be opened.

[MichaelB]

McCrutchy confirmed that English subtitles are actually on the UHD!

I'm not surprised; there are no rights issues regarding the UK, StudioCanal owns the subs outright, and if they decide to release it in the UK they won't have to reauthor the disc. So it really made no sense at all to drop them.

[MichaelB]

The example of Red Desert is a good one, because, as we know, both the BFI and Criterion Blu-rays use the same scan, but the color timing was based on different references (different prints.) So which is correct? If you happened to see a print that looked like the BFI, then the Criterion is wrong. But if you saw the print that looked like the Criterion, then the BFI is wrong. Without an answer print or color timing notes, how can you be sure if anything is right or wrong? You look for other references and do your best.

I can't speak for Criterion, but James White told me that his magic formula when working on the BFI release (which came out first) was to ensure that the fleshtones were consistent throughout.

And yes, as you say, with this film it's literally impossible to be certain. The properly preserved archival reference 35mm copies that Criterion and the BFI used were equally authoritative.

[ianthemovie]

Has there been any (reliable) word yet on Discotek's Belladonna of Sadness? I tried looking for information about it on The Other Forum and ended up wasting twenty minutes wading through ten pages' worth of posts that left me feeling considerably stupider than before.

[therewillbeblus]

The example of Red Desert is a good one, because, as we know, both the BFI and Criterion Blu-rays use the same scan, but the color timing was based on different references (different prints.) So which is correct? If you happened to see a print that looked like the BFI, then the Criterion is wrong. But if you saw the print that looked like the Criterion, then the BFI is wrong. Without an answer print or color timing notes, how can you be sure if anything is right or wrong? You look for other references and do your best.

I can't speak for Criterion, but James White told me that his magic formula when working on the BFI release (which came out first) was to ensure that the fleshtones were consistent throughout.

And yes, as you say, with this film it's literally impossible to be certain. The properly preserved archival reference 35mm copies that Criterion and the BFI used were equally authoritative.

Reminds me that I'm dying to get a Red Desert UHD from BFI especially (so that I can own both color schemes!)

[M-A]

Reminds me that I'm dying to get a Red Desert UHD from BFI especially (so that I can own both color schemes!)

There is the 4K restoration on the French and Japanese BDs with its own (very blue) grading. Unfortunately the restoration has terrible frozen grain for the whole runtime.

[mhofmann]

Has there been any (reliable) word yet on Discotek's Belladonna of Sadness? I tried looking for information about it on The Other Forum and ended up wasting twenty minutes wading through ten pages' worth of posts that left me feeling considerably stupider than before.

Someone posted a screencap comparison here (link in this post), which shows the Discotek release to be significantly grain reduced and badly encoded on top. The UK UHD, compression issues aside, appears to remain the best release out there.

[tenia]

Wow, that Enigmo1 guy is a pain.

[ianthemovie]

I have no idea whether anything posted on the other forum can be trusted, so I'm going to continue to wait for a more credible source to weigh in before I make a decision about Belladonna of Sadness.

[dwk]

Some more from the Blu-ray.com thread about Fear and Loathing and the use of color gels, quoting an American Cinematographer article from '98

[Peacock]

Some more from the Blu-ray.com thread about Fear and Loathing and the use of color gels, quoting an American Cinematographer article from '98

Really interesting info. However it ignores the variable of the film stock used. They ran tests with different gels - shooting with the film stock they were going to shoot the rest of the picture with. The real life colour of the gel is irrelevant and unimportant.

[Michael Kerpan]

Mentioned elsewhere but, for the record here -- the Cinema Guild 4k/UHD of Somai's Typhoon Club strikes me as "essential".

[mhofmann]

I have no idea whether anything posted on the other forum can be trusted, so I'm going to continue to wait for a more credible source to weigh in before I make a decision about Belladonna of Sadness.

Yeah, I hear you. I’ve been taking a pretty strong stance there but after a lot of pointless circle-jerk discussion over there that thread has been Ruined…

[dwk]

Really interesting info. However it ignores the variable of the film stock used. They ran tests with different gels - shooting with the film stock they were going to shoot the rest of the picture with. The real life colour of the gel is irrelevant and unimportant.

Yes,and the still in the article, while not the one in the Blu-ray.com post, looks more like the older releases. But it seems the only ones that appear way, way different, based on the few caps out there, are the B&W montage being sepia and the blue in that conference room. The rest tend to boil down to the Arrow being more magenta leaning.

[nicolas]

Coin de Mire Cinéma released Classe tous risques (1960) and That Man from Rio (1964) in 4K in March. The restorations were done by TF1 and grading by Hiventy and Éclair respectively. Both UHDs are BD-100s with Dolby Vision MEL and HDR10+ and both are unquestionably reference releases. Classe tous risques was previously released by BFI and it’s a substantial upgrade to their BD. So beautifully fine-grained and detailed in every shot and with a remarkable grayscale. That Man from Rio had a very problematic previous 2K restoration that was used for the Cohen Media BD (see caps below). I don’t have their set and the new 4K restoration is revelatory compared to how the Cohen BD caps looks. The yellow signature and teal look is gone and now the film looks like something that originated on celluloid. Encoding is again spotless. I wouldn’t be surprised if both discs were handled by one of the top authoring houses (LSP or FiM). The remastered BDs included in the sets are ridiculously bad and the exact opposite of how the UHDs look with such strong macroblocking that it makes them unwatchable. Unfortunately, no English subs on both releases.

HDR caps for Classe tous risques:

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Caps for That Man from Rio:

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Cohen 2015 BD caps: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/That-Man ... creenshots

[nicolas]

Well, this is a surprise the fewest of us probably expected: Early word on the upcoming Paramount Chinatown UHD is strong. They actually used a BD-100 and allowed the film a generous bitrate. This studio really is something, my God. How fantastic that we’re having Eagle for Once Upon a Time in the West but shame on Paramount for their inconsistency and never-ending IDGAF attitude towards their catalogue.

[nicolas]

As per MA's link, the German import of Night Porter is a big improvement in 4k over the poorly encoded Criterion Blu-Ray.

I've received the Carlotta BD of the film with a supposedly new restoration. This is not the case. It's the one used for the Cult Films BD and Wicked-Vision UHD and it was made in 2018.
The Carlotta BD is easily the best version of the three as it's received the best encode by LSP and is superior to the UHD.
Colors are identical to the Cult Films BD and were not altered by Carlotta / LSP compared to the gentle regrade on the Wicked Vision UHD. English audio is available but only French subs.

Are you comfortable with adding this as a caveat to the Wicked Vision UHD even though it's in the solid upgrade list? I still think the UHD is solid but the BD is definitely the one to recommend.