UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

Inn of the Gruesome Dolls (Rasthaus der grausamen Puppen), a rather unknown, black and white German crime film from 1967 has been released by Subkultur Entertainment, who previously did Deadlock and Out of Order. Both of these are reference discs and received US versions via Vinegar Syndrome Partner Labels. I remember reading that the US releases have the exact same discs as the German versions, except for the packaging of course. I don’t believe these are in the master list as of now.

Subkultur are back after a little break with the above film and based on the excellence of the previous discs and my enjoyment of the respective films, I blind-bought the new release despite me never having heard of the film or director before. The edition is limited to 1000 copies and has English subtitles as well as two versions of German audio - optical mono and magnetic mono.

But honestly, nothing could have prepared me for how flat-out phenomenal this UHD looks. It‘s a black and white film but oh my God, the UHD may reach the best the format has to offer. HDR10 and Dolby Vision (selectable in the menu) are both remarkable with not a single encoding deficit from what I saw. Everything from the blacks, to skies and bright lamps look uniformly great. And all that on a BD-66. Granted, the film is only 96 minutes long but other authoring houses fail desperately even if they used a BD-100.

I’ve no idea about the film but this presentation will guarantee a special enjoyment. From the visuals alone, this may be the year‘s best black and white release and among the very best UHDs I‘ve personally seen.

[ryannichols7]

anything out there for Ghost Dog yet? Orbit just got it in stock and as always, curious of reviews before buying

[nicolas]

anything out there for Ghost Dog yet? Orbit just got it in stock and as always, curious of reviews before buying

A very good first review: https://forum.blu-ray.com/newreply.php? ... p=21471298

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

In which category would we place Potter's Orlando and Almodovar's Volver? None of them are in the list, but both are Sony titles so I imagine they are both solid releases?

[hearthesilence]

I saw the 4K restoration of Orlando premiere at Metrograph (with Sally Potter present, absolutely wonderful) and it looked great. As long as they don't mess up the encoding, it should be a reference release. Then again, I said that about The Trial, and well, ugh...hopefully Sony is more reliable.

[The Narrator Returns]

I don't watch enough 4Ks or have nearly enough of an eye for encoding (aside from when it's completely fucked-up like more than a few Criterions) to be a reliable source on this, but I was gobsmacked by how good the Orlando 4K looked, it was my first time seeing it and it really appeared like it could've been shot yesterday.

[5meohd]

Mean Streets

[Finch]

Has anyone seen Ghost Dog theatrically back then and can you confirm if the movie had subtitles for when Ghost Dog talks to the French ice cream dealer? The Studio Canal 4k does not translate the French dialogue but the Criterion BD did. Apparently other home video editions were inconsistent with this, too.

[hearthesilence]

Has anyone seen Ghost Dog theatrically back then and can you confirm if the movie had subtitles for when Ghost Dog talks to the French ice cream dealer? The Studio Canal 4k does not translate the French dialogue but the Criterion BD did. Apparently other home video editions were inconsistent with this, too.

I saw a vintage 35mm print at MoMA earlier this year in a tribute to the film's casting directors, Ellen Lewis and Laura Rosenthal, and there were indeed English subtitles for the French.

[tenia]

Mean Streets

I'm curious to know which lab did this one.
The discussion over at blu-ray.com is in any case fascinating, as numerous numbers are sticking to "who are we to say to Martin Scorsese the movie shouldn't look like this ?", despite the various examples of restorations having been approved by directors and/or DPs and still bearing laboratories' color signatures. So we know these can be visible despite whoever approved what, meaning Scorsese might have well approved this, it doesn't mean it's the proper result.

[nicolas]

‍ Mean Streets

I'm curious to know which lab did this one.
The discussion over at blu-ray.com is in any case fascinating, as numerous numbers are sticking to "who are we to say to Martin Scorsese the movie shouldn't look like this ?", despite the various examples of restorations having been approved by directors and/or DPs and still bearing laboratories' color signatures. So we know these can be visible despite whoever approved what, meaning Scorsese might have well approved this, it doesn't mean it's the proper result.

Curious about this too. This restoration looks awfully like 2016-20 era Ritrovata blanket yellow, although I still doubt that they were involved particularly as they‘ve now transitioned to honor original colors more than they don’t. Second Sight mentioned that it‘s a joint effort between them and Criterion. The key question may be where the OCN is stored and what facility is closest to perform all duties.
With the final result merely being approved by Scorsese and Schoonmaker, I don’t expect that either of them did a shot-by-shot fine-tune. As with After Hours, I have a feeling that the newest Scorsese restorations were done while they were either filming or in post-production of Killers of the Flower Moon and therefore too busy to be more involved.

[Finch]

thank you hearthesilence! I hope Studio Canal recall the discs and fix this. Otherwise, I'm sticking with the Criterion.

[Finch]

Fascination (Indicator)

The Others (Criterion 4k) Chris's review

Waiting for encode comparisons with the Studio Canal before settling on a final score but both discs seem to be at least solid upgrades over the Blu-Rays.

[nicolas]

Fascination (Indicator)

The Others (Criterion 4k) Chris's review

Waiting for encode comparisons with the Studio Canal before settling on a final score but both discs seem to be at least solid upgrades over the Blu-Rays.

While the CC is still missing, the upgrade from the old BD is phenomenal. https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=39 ... 0&i=0&go=1

I never had the old disc but it looks dreadful and is framed in the wrong aspect ratio as well.
I presume it’ll be old BD -> Criterion (solid upgrade) -> SC (reference) with its added OG 5.1 track in addition to the encode. Nonetheless, I’d love to see Criterion comparison caps.

So far, two NexSpec SDR encodes (The Others and Moonage Daydream) seem at least solid compared to the DV disaster Walkabout.

[Finch]

Re the Mean Streets thread on BR, it'd be really funny if it turns out the new restoration isn't as yellow looking in real life and everyone got into a frothing rage because Atanasov took poor screenshots (to be fair, some people at least seem to take that into consideration).

[Finch]

Cujo review

[tenia]

Re the Mean Streets thread on BR, it'd be really funny if it turns out the new restoration isn't as yellow looking in real life and everyone got into a frothing rage because Atanasov took poor screenshots (to be fair, some people at least seem to take that into consideration).

It is a possibility, but Svet has been accurately taking BD screencaps for more than a decade, so except is there is a non-negligible gap in grading between the BD and the UHD (which would be abnormal), there is no historical reason not to trust his caps.
(I however wouldn't trust a second his downscaled 4K caps)

I also see some people there saying one needs to "stop looking at older HD masters as the goal post of how movies are supposed to look" and that "The frames on Criterion's website look what you'd expect 35mm film stock to look like once properly graded". I'm surprised by the 1st point : it's a decade now since we know that's not what the issue is; and it turns out I've been seeing archive 35mm exploitations prints now and then at my local Cinematheque for the past 4 years (plus a few others but a bit longer ago), and I have yet to see one that looks like it'd make me say "OK, 35mm copies can look like that" (just one), so that makes the 2nd point moot (which makes their "don't trust your memories" ironic, as they seem like they'd also need to be confronted to practice).

It might not be the exemple to remind this (as maybe the caps actually are inaccurate), but part of the structural issue with what has been happening at Ritrovata and Eclair (and what is now seemingly happening at Hiventy - some people are using The Three Colours trilogy as an exemple, but that's one exemple, while there is at least 3 counter-exemples to this : Le gendarme of Saint Tropez, Red Sonja and Cat's Eyes, so I wouldn't excuse Hiventy too much) on 250+ movies is enabled by people still not understanding what is being pointed out as problematic. It's been a very long time since most people aren't pointing this out because they're referencing older known-to-be-inaccurate transfers.

As this pace, no wonder these labs can keep on doing whatever they're doing since even on specialized boards, people are still at misunderstanding an issue that has been characterized for quite some time already. Obviously, the labs are responsible for these results, but all the people who misunderstand the issue and/or find excuses, allow and approve these, accept and pay for the results, promote it in festivals or on video releases, are enablers and co-responsibles for this saddening state of things.

[nicolas]

A few new posts today regarding new UHD‘s.

First, Studiocanal‘s (France / Germany) Persepolis.
It‘s a nice digipack with a French-language booklet glued to the lid.

Regarding English subtitles, I have to disappoint right away. We only get French and German. There is a hidden English subtitle track included (one you can’t access from the disc menu) but I have no idea what it‘s there for. This track automatically starts once you select the English audio track. Sorry to disappoint anyone here, hope you still find some worth in this release, because…

…otherwise, it‘s fantastic. BD is a BD-66, presented in SDR .709, all language tracks (French, German, English) in lossless 5.1.

The image quality looks superb with a high-bitrate encode but honestly, if you compare the BD and UHD side-by-side, I doubt you'd notice a difference. The included BD is remastered and has the 2023 bonus features with Marjane Satrapi, subtitled in German. (I don’t have an older release for PQ comparison).

Audio quality is interesting though. The (OG) French track has considerably more fidelity and dynamics compared to the other two tracks, which I think are dubs. The French one has strong LFE engagement as well.

All in all, an exceptional release for European fans that should be considered definitive.

For those missing English subs, either choose the dub or consider a remux

[nicolas]

Studiocanal‘s Ghost Dog (UK / Germany):

This disc is (slightly) more problematic than the French subs issue in the PQ department as well.

BD-100, HDR10 only as mentioned. Audio is 5.1 and sounds excellent with superb low-end.

I have a feeling that this disc was encoded by the new facility Criterion uses (NexSpec) and the same facility that ruined their Walkabout UHD.

The film‘s OCN shots have a solid to great amount of resolution with no eye-catching filtering but I don’t quite like how the very thin grain moves in a strange, swarm-like manner in a number of (exterior) shots. It‘s a different feel than a grain-managed Paramount master or something like The Pianist. I don’t imply grain management, the master is surely excellent but not as well encoded as it should be.

The skies that affected Walkabout go into the same direction here but it‘s nowhere near as bad. Macroblocking is present and more prominent the brighter the image.
Brightness is the catch here - the film doesn’t appear to be that bright. Weather is often overcast. This toned down the issues and makes the film look better. Nonetheless, skies and highlights feel flat.

Optical shots are more problematic due to a general low bitrate here. I’ve observed that they drop very low in darker moments and rise slightly in normal shots but optical shots of skies for example have a very low bitrates again. That kind of encoding likely makes the difference to the OCN shots even more visible.

I‘d still go with this version as it‘s currently the best but far from perfect by any means. Most people likely don’t notice anything bad (which is why the criticism against Criterion‘s encodes are limited to forums like this). The French subtitle issue definitely warrants a replacement though! Until this is fixed, a disappointing release. Afterwards, a solid upgrade.

For slip cover collectors - Rarewaves shipped mine without one but I‘ve seen pics with slip.

[Finch]

Studio Canal are giving the best label in the world a run for their half-assed efforts. We either get a good or an underwhelming disc. Glad Persepolis turned out well but naturally of the three titles, I was looking forward to, it's the least important one that's turned out best (Ghost Dog and Delicatessen are the other two). I'm not sure I'll part with my Criterion BD of the Jarmusch even if SC recall their 4ks to add the French subs back in, and I'll wait for a sale on Delicatessen (and a UK/US edition announcement for Persepolis). Now I'm like this [-o< waiting for the Peeping Tom reviews!

[nicolas]

Studio Canal are giving the best label in the world a run for their half-assed efforts. We either get a good or an underwhelming disc. Glad Persepolis turned out well but naturally of the three titles, I was looking forward to, it's the least important one that's turned out best (Ghost Dog and Delicatessen are the other two). I'm not sure I'll part with my Criterion BD of the Jarmusch even if SC re-call their 4ks to add the French subs back in, and I'll wait for a sale on Delicatessen (and a UK/US edition of Persepolis). Now I'm like this [-o< waiting for the Peeping Tom reviews!

I hope for either a FiM or Visual Data encode. This being a UK title with a restoration made in the UK, I can’t imagine anyone other than these two encoding it. It’s just speculation but I think I see a pattern with SC encodes. Depending on where the restoration was done, a party close to that delivers the encode. Cutthroat Island - French restoration, French encode. Ghost Dog - Criterion doing the restoration and their (almost) in-house NexSpec seemingly doing the rest.

And another addition to the master list for superior imports: Cross of Iron, Australia Via Vision. According to Svet, the reference UHD is the same as Studiocanal’s (thank God) but that AU edition has vastly different and exceptional bonus features with Sam Peckinpah scholar Mike Siegel as well as exclusive crew interviews.

[nicolas]

Studio Canal are giving the best label in the world a run for their half-assed efforts. We either get a good or an underwhelming disc. Glad Persepolis turned out well but naturally of the three titles, I was looking forward to, it's the least important one that's turned out best (Ghost Dog and Delicatessen are the other two). I'm not sure I'll part with my Criterion BD of the Jarmusch even if SC recall their 4ks to add the French subs back in, and I'll wait for a sale on Delicatessen (and a UK/US edition announcement for Persepolis). Now I'm like this [-o< waiting for the Peeping Tom reviews!

While we’re at it with the best label in the world, Red Dragon seems to be exactly that. A good / excellent restoration with a mediocre, autopilot encode that looks mostly solid but has problems in brighter areas and their surroundings. Three Days of the Condor says hello. In addition to the frequent audio issues, PQ is now affected by sheer laziness as well. Incredibly sad.

On the contrary, Shout now frequently knocks it out of the park. Their occasionally questionable choices of which cut gets a 4K aside, what’s on the discs as of late is all stunning. My Bloody Valentine for example is a Paramount transfer and has hints of grain management but the exceptional encode renders it almost invisible.

[Finch]

I'm reading good things about Shout's The Blob UHD but it's not clear to me yet how much of an improvement over their earlier BD it is. I'm guessing it qualifies at least as a solid update. I've not seen complaints about Sony's encode.

[nicolas]

I'm reading good things about Shout's The Blob UHD but it's not clear to me yet how much of an improvement over their earlier BD it is. I'm guessing it qualifies at least as a solid update. I've not seen complaints about Sony's encode.

I’m sure it’s a solid upgrade if not more.

Finch, I’d like to make a suggestion for Cross of Iron. Right now, only the AU Via Vision release is visible in the master list. I’d add the SC to that one as the 4K discs themselves are identical even with the UK logos in the AU set (as seen on photos). The only difference are the additional bonus features on the AU but the SC is more budget-friendly and likely suffices for most.

Also, I’m missing Inn of the Gruesome Dolls on the list. (In case you’re wondering, this is no adult film or anything in the like. The title sounds like something Vinegar Syndrome would release but it’s certainly been phrased that way in the 60s in order to provoke people / censors etc. It’s actually a fairly tame, PG-13 kind of film).

I similarly didn’t notice Persepolis. Despite no English subs for the main French track, I’d still count it as a good release for an English crowd due to the inclusion of the dub.

No rush, of course. Just wanted to point this out. Thanks for all the updates!

[AxeYou]

I hope for either a FiM or Visual Data encode.

Between Engine House and Visual Data, is there a general consensus on who's usually more competent? I remember reading something about that somewhere.

And a heartfelt thanks to Nic for your numerous reviews of the latest catalog 4K releases. I'm curious do you literally preorder all these at MSRP? We're truly in your debt