UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[AxeYou]

Well, by only consuming the RPU (dynamic metadata), Zidoo messes up with a number of FEL titles since the RPU expects the FEL layer to be applied as well. Some are obvious (like Saving Private Ryan), others not so much but still wrong since the brightness is modified by the FEL layer. There is a spreadsheet tracking all those cases here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

A better approach is to convert such titles to P8. As a result,the RPU will be accurate to the Base Layer, and ignore all enhancements from FEL.

There are two separate issues with FEL releases. Unfortunately, converting to Profile 8 does not address any of them.

The first issue is a badly encoded HDR10 BL. Saving Private Ryan falls into this category (BL flashes in luminance in closing credits). Converting to P8 only discards EL and explicit references to it in the RPU, so it doesn’t help “fix” the BL.

The second “issue” is perfectly within DV spec: Some titles have a BL graded to 1000 nits peak, whereas the full FEL is graded to higher, e.g. 2000 or 4000 nits peak. Again, converting to Profile 8 doesn’t help, because the conversion does not touch any level-1 (automatically calculated per-shot luminance, measured from master) or level-2 (colorist’s manually defined tone mapping override) metadata. These two pieces of metadata, along with the display’s peak brightness, decide the tone mapping applied. As a result, a Profile 8 file will still be tone mapped too dark.

In both cases, I think a true FEL player is the only way to go. The spreadsheet you linked is a good resource to track them.

It really is unfortunate that Dolby muddied the waters so much with DV formats. For those of us who remux, there’s way too much to research to understand how to play back DV accurately.

[nicolas]

Sorry if I missed this: did anyone confirm whether the French subs on Millennium Mambo are forced?

You haven’t missed it. I forgot to mention that they’re optional.

[senseabove]

Excellent. Thanks!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Also received my Showgirls 4K today and it’s easily the best VS UHD encode I’ve seen. Their previous ones have ridiculously high bitrates but some of the worst highlights I’ve seen (Thriller - they’re all clipped to death) and their HDR grades were way too hot.

Showgirls feels exactly right from what I’ve seen. The colors are gorgeous, grain comes across perfectly with no issues on first glance. There are details in these bright makeup chair lamps (don’t know the exact term) which can be made out exactly as they should be. No DV needed to fix anything.

Once the audio and subtitle issues are fixed, this will be a reference release and definitive for the film.

Edit: I’ve had Road House in the same package and while it’s nicely encoded similar to Showgirls, the HDR grading is slightly too saturated. But it’s nothing you can’t fix on the fly. On my Panasonic player, I set the color balance in the HDR settings to -7 and the image looks a lot better straight away.

Thanks for your feedback about Millenium Mambo, I'm looking forward for my copy now.

Regarding Showgirls, it's one of my favorite Paul Verhoeven movie with Turkish Delight (still hoping a blu-ray release for this one!)
I have the MGM Blu-Ray (the French one was an open matte blu-ray, like "Black Book" open matte - interesting, but it's obvious the movie are for scope format)
Did you get an advance copy of the UHD release ? Because it's only for late July.
Do you think the Blu-Ray will be from the new 4K transfer ? It's by Vinegar Syndrome now- The MGM BR was already damned good in terms of details, color, natural film grain, all sweaty.

[nicolas]

Also received my Showgirls 4K today and it’s easily the best VS UHD encode I’ve seen. Their previous ones have ridiculously high bitrates but some of the worst highlights I’ve seen (Thriller - they’re all clipped to death) and their HDR grades were way too hot.

Showgirls feels exactly right from what I’ve seen. The colors are gorgeous, grain comes across perfectly with no issues on first glance. There are details in these bright makeup chair lamps (don’t know the exact term) which can be made out exactly as they should be. No DV needed to fix anything.

Once the audio and subtitle issues are fixed, this will be a reference release and definitive for the film.

Edit: I’ve had Road House in the same package and while it’s nicely encoded similar to Showgirls, the HDR grading is slightly too saturated. But it’s nothing you can’t fix on the fly. On my Panasonic player, I set the color balance in the HDR settings to -7 and the image looks a lot better straight away.

Thanks for your feedback about Millenium Mambo, I'm looking forward for my copy now.

Regarding Showgirls, it's one of my favorite Paul Verhoeven movie with Turkish Delight (still hoping a blu-ray release for this one!)
I have the MGM Blu-Ray (the French one was an open matte blu-ray, like "Black Book" open matte - interesting, but it's obvious the movie are for scope format)
Did you get an advance copy of the UHD release ? Because it's only for late July.
Do you think the Blu-Ray will be from the new 4K transfer ? It's by Vinegar Syndrome now- The MGM BR was already damned good in terms of details, color, natural film grain, all sweaty.

I don’t receive advanced copies (obviously wish I could), this is the regular box set copy as sold by Vinegar Syndrome directly. I assume the standard edition releases in July.

The Blu-ray should have the same 4K-restored transfer, yes. I haven’t checked myself but the cover mentions it. The film has its own BD-50 with another BD for the extras, so it should look pristine in HD as well.

As of now, we don’t know if the regular retail copies will be pulled because of the issues so I guess at the moment it’s best waiting for VS’ statement. Hope you’ll eventually enjoy your copy. I can’t wait to finally see the film for the first time!

[Rupert Pupkin]

is there a limited edition by Vinegar Syndrome ? or several edition of the upcoming Showgirls ?
I can only see this reference : https://www.wowhd.co.uk/showgirls/814456027654
3 disks : thus, I assume 1 Blu-Ray with the movie, the UHD disk, and another Blu-Ray disk for the extras, that's it ?

[nicolas]

is there a limited edition by Vinegar Syndrome ? or several edition of the upcoming Showgirls ?
I can only see this reference : https://www.wowhd.co.uk/showgirls/814456027654
3 disks : thus, I assume 1 Blu-Ray with the movie, the UHD disk, and another Blu-Ray disk for the extras, that's it ?

Yes, it‘a a limited edition with three discs as you said but currently not available for purchase on their homepage like all non-partner label editions.
The standard edition probably doesn’t come with the box, booklet and slip cover, but disc contents should be identical.

For more info on what’s included you can take look here in the meantime: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=360516

[MichaelB]

Vinegar Syndrome has confirmed that the 5.1 track of Showgirls is indeed being fixed.

If it's anything like the Flesh for Frankenstein situation, people who bought it directly from them will be sent replacement discs automatically.

[rrenault]

Would anyone happen to have any knowledge regarding the Eagle Pictures UHD of Breathless in Italy? Is it just a direct port of the SC UHD available in France and the UK?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Good news regarding Millennium Mambo UHD. Spectrum‘s disc is a winner and by far the best French (non-FiM) catalogue UHD encode since The Jokers‘ JSA and Memories of Murder

The film looks very, very beautiful in 4K. The disc is a BD-66 with only the film on it. As previously mentioned, HDR10 and Dolby Vision is available and apparently commissioned / made by Spectrum themselves. Both grades are very good. Tasteful, no artificial “pop” and (I assume) to bring out the best in Hou Hou-hsien & Mark Lee Ping Bing’s color palette.

I only took a quick look at the disc (will see the film in HDR10 due to remuxing) but I highly doubt that Kino Lorber / Metrograph’s disc will come close. As of publishing my post, I’ve already canceled my order. It’s a great shame that they decided against an English-friendly UHD when it’s clearly proven that arthouse titles can sell well (Eternal Sunshine and the rapturous early response re. Lost in Translation).

Our infamous bright highlights (for example in lamps, skies, candles etc.) which have been all but clipped in other French 4Ks by bad encodes look really beautiful here. We can actually make out a small layer of grain!

Again, based on my random spot check, I couldn’t see any faults in the encode apart from one shot of an office building (?) near the end. A small portion of the image gets slightly blocky there (on the corners) but it’s really no big deal at all in the grand scheme.

As always, I can’t really comment on the audio due to lack of experience / equipment.

It’s a fantastic release and delivers more than I expected from such a small label. Based on that great of an impression (including a good amount of extras!), I’d highly recommend for anybody remotely interested in this release to buy their copies NOW as there are apparently less than 200 left. My limited edition number is 699 of 1000. Also, I’d recommend Spectrum to release an unnumbered print run as it would be a huge shame if this gem of a disc is prohibited the longevity and exposure it deserves. So many other worse discs stick around for eternity but real quality work dies out way too soon.

Packaging pictures see BR.com or here:

https://ibb.co/17RFDY2
https://ibb.co/F510r0v
https://ibb.co/sQy572Q
https://ibb.co/0QtpzFC
https://ibb.co/BPmQTPM
https://ibb.co/ZRsN1Vd

I made Spectrum aware of my post and they immediately responded. I asked about maybe extending the print run but they didn’t answer that question. They told me that the HDR / DV master is indeed theirs and no other company has asked for it so far.

They also generously shared some of their upcoming 4K UHD titles with me, although I’m not sure if I can disclose it.

If you have the release and are happy with it, let them know and what other titles you’d buy from them. I mentioned more Hou or other "arthouse" directors like Edward Yang in 4K. They currently aren’t on the list they’re working on, so maybe the good response to this film will make them consider taking on this niche too.

For example Yang’s longer films would surely be breathtaking in UHD. I’ll take lots of Asian cinema straight away but dramas like this are my favorites.

You were right, I have just watched Millennium Mambo (Spectrum) on UHD, and the transfer is gorgeous; way beyond my expectation (I was almost reluctant to order it because it was a French release (I'm French) . There is some fine grain film like, great details; and a lot of scene (for instance the night clubbing in blue where probably really hard to encode and it looks great; with some amazing details; no "poterisation" as far as I can tell) the blu-ray is also amazing in terms of picture quality and film grain.

Simple menu with the beautiful scene with Shu Qi walking (no pop-up menu to change chapters; but movie is chaptered; subtitles are removabled as confirmed in a previous post (with your remote control of your player, there is no menu to remove the subtitles)
I did not have the time to look at the extras; Apparently most of them are upscaled and from the DVD Ocean/TF1 (which I had).
Even with just the blu-ray this is a pure bliss of cinema/theatrical experience.
Indeed that's sad that such great restoration is available only in a limited edition via Spectrum (who did a great job).
Had the Wong Kar Wai collection been restored like that we would have been in heaven.

I forgot how I fell in love with Shu Qi ; now smoke gets in my eyes, The Platters now rings into my head, and Rain And Tears...
Which brings me to the existential question : will "Three Times" (I remember the "present" time was a kind of return to M.Mambo (my favorite part being the "first time") be released on blu-ray/UHD ?

Just a thought : I wonder if A.Kiarostami was influence by this movie for the jealousy scenes in "Like Someone In Love" with her boyfriend.
And for a brief moment there is no subtitles at all (this is the "snow" scene) I guess that it's because they are talking in Japanese and as far as I can remember there are a few inserts here and there which were not on the TF1/Ocean DVD and the first theatrical release in France.

[AxeYou]

The 2.0 tracks on Kino's Serpico and The Manchurian Candidate UHDs are both split-L/R-stereo mixes, instead of proper dual mono representations of their OG mixes.

It's very simple to verify in Audacity:

1. Invert the phase of one of the two channels.
2. Downmix the inverted channel together with the other untouched channel to 1.0.
3. If the resulting waveform flat-lines, the original 2.0 is a dual mono. Otherwise, it's split stereo.

This works because two identical but phase-inverted signals will cancel each other out when added together.

Result on Serpico:


Result on The Manchurian Candidate:


Neither is a flat-line as a true dual mono would be.

For The Manchurian Candidate, Moshrom/Blah-ray has previously concluded that the Criterion Blu-ray's mono sounds the best. I haven't found existing audio comparisons on Serpico yet, so I'm planning to examine some BDs.

I've also compared a few other titles recently. Will write those up soon.

[yoloswegmaster]

This is why KL is considered to be the best label in the business!

[Finch]

VS told a BR poster via email that they'll be fixing the Showgirls subs, too.

The audio issues with those Kino 4ks are getting to be annoying. If the Criterion BD of Manchurian has the best audio, I may just get that instead or see if Arrow upgrade their disc. Apparently, Kino also put a big spoiler in their blurb for the film on the back cover for those that hadn't seen the film yet. Slow claps all round.

Speaking of Arrow, Mallrats if compared to their own BD.

Initial reactions to Kino's Ronin 4k are pretty positive, ditto 88's Burial Ground (no apparent snafus like with their last two Italian titles).

[AxeYou]

The audio issues with those Kino 4ks are getting to be annoying. If the Criterion BD of Manchurian has the best audio, I may just get that instead or see if Arrow upgrade their disc. Apparently, Kino also put a big spoiler in their blurb for the film on the back cover for those that hadn't seen the film yet. Slow claps all round.

To be fair to them, the best label in the world never bothered to tell us what exactly their 2.0 tracks are . Their specs have always been vague.

They had a few genuine hits early on in their 4K slate, like sourcing superior LaserDisc tracks for TGTBTU and The Apartment. With them also correcting Ritrovata’s signature color timing, I was cautiously optimistic at one point. Now it seems like almost every Kino UHD release features a downmix in place of the OG mono.

Given this trend, in a perverse sense I’m relieved they are now putting out stereo mixes instead of dubious dual monos. Saves us so much trouble—It takes 5 minutes to decide whether a 2.0 is stereo, but much much more difficult to decide whether a mono track is a downmix.

[nicolas]

Seven Samurai Toho UHD. BD-100. 2160p SDR with PCM 2.0 for Dual Mono and 2.0 surround each.

As with the other Toho Kurosawa 4K re-releases, this is by far the best version of Seven Samurai. A very surprising gain in detail across the board, yet the very top layer of grain has been taken off via noise reduction. Again, as with the others, this is far from any sort of atrocity. The new master is very much watchable and should ideally be made available like that all over the world. I wouldn’t complain, not at all. If your viewing distance is further away, you likely won’t notice anything.
One more thing regarding detail, due to the lack of the original negative, you don’t get the sharpest 4K image akin to Ikiru. Whereas I consider the restorations of Ikiru and Stray Dog barely HD (also due to more DNR), Seven Samurai achieves a solid HD-quality texture as part of this new master. I assume that this is everything the remaining elements yield, so all good on that end. And, by the way, what surprised me a little was how much dirt is still present in the images. Restoration hasn’t been 100% perfect across the board but I’d rather have that instead of too much taken away.
Encoding is excellent. (The film uses 79 GB disc space by the way with a huge amount of other small files on the disc I can’t get my head around).

Audio has also been improved without a doubt although I’m no expert and couldn’t analyze this via waveform or other tools. I simply went by my ears and it sounds amazing in both Dual Mono and the 2.0 track. A wide, rich field of sound with the most gain in the music which sounds very lively compared to the muffled Criterion. Spoken words not so much but I think this also feels like a source limitation.

If you can remux or add external subtitles, go for it. An easy recommendation for all fans of the film. I couldn’t be much happier at this point and only hope that this wasn’t the last Kurosawa UHD as there are still lots more that could greatly benefit from an upgrade.

21 screenshots over here (linked by BR.com post for clarity): https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=29

[rrenault]

I have a technical question. If you create a remux and put it on a Plex server does the computer you’re connecting your streaming device to need to support HDR/DV? By this I mean if I’m viewing a film on Plex on a TV via an Apple TV that supports HDR and DV does the laptop where the Plex server is based also need to support HDR and DV in order for the file to output on the TV with DV, assuming both the panel and ATV support DV. As an example, imagine you have the remuxes on an external HD connected to a Mac laptop from 2014 or 2015 that doesn’t have HDR support of any kind. Will it be a problem?

[nicolas]

I have a technical question. If you create a remux and put it on a Plex server does the computer you’re connecting your streaming device to need to support HDR/DV? By this I mean if I’m viewing a film on Plex on a TV via an Apple TV that supports HDR and DV does the laptop where the Plex server is based also need to support HDR and DV in order for the file to output on the TV with DV, assuming both the panel and ATV support DV. As an example, imagine you have the remuxes on an external HD connected to a Mac laptop from 2014 or 2015 that doesn’t have HDR support of any kind. Will it be a problem?

I don't have a Plex server (I'm using Kodi via Nvidia Shield and two SSD's connected) but I think you should be good to go. As long as your file has all the right information for your TV to detect, you should be good. But I don't know how the bandwidth connection will be like. My Shield is tested to its limits when I play a 4K HDR10 Atmos file for comparison.

I think you just have to try and see if it works. Maybe there is some demo material you can use before deciding anything else.

[rrenault]

I have a technical question. If you create a remux and put it on a Plex server does the computer you’re connecting your streaming device to need to support HDR/DV? By this I mean if I’m viewing a film on Plex on a TV via an Apple TV that supports HDR and DV does the laptop where the Plex server is based also need to support HDR and DV in order for the file to output on the TV with DV, assuming both the panel and ATV support DV. As an example, imagine you have the remuxes on an external HD connected to a Mac laptop from 2014 or 2015 that doesn’t have HDR support of any kind. Will it be a problem?

I don't have a Plex server (I'm using Kodi via Nvidia Shield and two SSD's connected) but I think you should be good to go. As long as your file has all the right information for your TV to detect, you should be good. But I don't know how the bandwidth connection will be like. My Shield is tested to its limits when I play a 4K HDR10 Atmos file for comparison.

I think you just have to try and see if it works. Maybe there is some demo material you can use before deciding anything else.

Okay. Sounds good. That said, is creating a remux the only way to pair these Kurosawa discs with externally sourced subtitles? I can’t for example put subs onto a hard drive and connect it to the UHD player via the usb port that my Panasonic player has and just sync them with the film on the disc?

[M-A]

Okay. Sounds good. That said, is creating a remux the only way to pair these Kurosawa discs with externally sourced subtitles? I can’t for example put subs onto a hard drive and connect it to the UHD player via the usb port that my Panasonic player has and just sync them with the film on the disc?

The UB9000 can load external subtitles, and the UB820 can do it with custom firmware.

[AxeYou]

I have a technical question. If you create a remux and put it on a Plex server does the computer you’re connecting your streaming device to need to support HDR/DV? By this I mean if I’m viewing a film on Plex on a TV via an Apple TV that supports HDR and DV does the laptop where the Plex server is based also need to support HDR and DV in order for the file to output on the TV with DV, assuming both the panel and ATV support DV. As an example, imagine you have the remuxes on an external HD connected to a Mac laptop from 2014 or 2015 that doesn’t have HDR support of any kind. Will it be a problem?

Only the media player and display need to support HDR/DV. Just keep in mind that, with 4K remuxes, you'll need fast data connection along the entire path. In your example:

• External HD to Mac: USB 3.
• Mac to router: 1 Gbps ethernet.
• ATV to router: 1 Gbps ethernet.

This will get you a very smooth playback experience. You can also get it to work with USB 2 and 100 Mbps ethernet or Wi-Fi. I used to run it that way with an old Raspberry Pi 3. It'll just take (a lot) longer to initially load a film and to FF/RW.

Specifically regarding Plex on ATV, maybe others can chime in, but it was never clear to me whether it genuinely played DV instead of just playing the HDR10 layer and forcing the display into DV mode. Infuse plays profile 8 for sure.

[andyli]

This conversation might belong to the technical thread, but keep in mind that even when these streaming devices (i.e. ATV, Nvidia Shield, etc.) supports DV, they only support single-layer DV. When you remux a 4k blu-ray there is a way to retain the dual-layer structure but the profile is not supported by any of the streaming devices or HTPCs out there. Last time I checked, the only way so far to play remuxed dual-layer DV without issues was via a 4k blu-ray player directly connected with External HDs.

[tenia]

Good news regarding Millennium Mambo UHD. Spectrum‘s disc is a winner and by far the best French (non-FiM) catalogue UHD encode since The Jokers‘ JSA and Memories of Murder

One thing that bothers me though is that the 5.1 track, while pretty decent as a whole, is mixed very low.
I compared it to the French DVD released by TF1 Vidéo / Ocean Films back in the day, which also had a 5.1 track, and it's indeed mixed at a much higher and more traditionnal level. Interestingly, there's very little surround activité on the DVD, while it's much more recurring on the BD.

[nicolas]

Good news regarding Millennium Mambo UHD. Spectrum‘s disc is a winner and by far the best French (non-FiM) catalogue UHD encode since The Jokers‘ JSA and Memories of Murder

One thing that bothers me though is that the 5.1 track, while pretty decent as a whole, is mixed very low.
I compared it to the French DVD released by TF1 Vidéo / Ocean Films back in the day, which also had a 5.1 track, and it's indeed mixed at a much higher and more traditionnal level. Interestingly, there's very little surround activité on the DVD, while it's much more recurring on the BD.

If true, that would be a big disappointment. I wish I could comment on this but the UHD is my first edition of the movie, so I don’t have the reference. I also didn’t get the chance yet to watch it but it’s likely I wouldn’t have noticed anything also because of my lack of proper equipment.

One can only wonder who did the new mix and approved it.

[tenia]

Overall, I don't use any specific equiment. My AV receiver is simply set up to always start, once turned On, at the same volume (-32.5dB), and so I can hear if it's way too loud (which can also happen) or way too low (which is the case here : I had to increase to -22.5dB).

However, I then did double-checked this by ripping both 5.1 tracks and then having a look at them with Audacity, and it was clear the BD one is a much quieter volume that the DVD one.

I can't say much about the channels' use of both tracks except it's not exactly the same, but it's not different in a weird way, just... different. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the DVD that was wrong, since there's activity only during the 1st nightclub scene and not the other ones, and I can't think of a particular reason for this.
So I'm more curious about the volume.

[nicolas]

Overall, I don't use any specific equiment. My AV receiver is simply set up to always start, once turned On, at the same volume (-32.5dB), and so I can hear if it's way too loud (which can also happen) or way too low (which is the case here : I had to increase to -22.5dB).

However, I then did double-checked this by ripping both 5.1 tracks and then having a look at them with Audacity, and it was clear the BD one is a much quieter volume that the DVD one.

I can't say much about the channels' use of both tracks except it's not exactly the same, but it's not different in a weird way, just... different. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the DVD that was wrong, since there's activity only during the 1st nightclub scene and not the other ones, and I can't think of a particular reason for this.
So I'm more curious about the volume.

That definitely sounds like something went wrong on the DVD… but notwithstanding that disc’s lossy compression if there’s more dynamic range than in the new one, something is clearly faulty with that one too. Still, the new UHD has such great PQ that I’m almost willing to forgive Spectrum, just turn up the volume and move on to the next one.