Kino

[godardslave]

I'd just like to chime in and point out that dvdbeaver is, at the end of the day, just 1 mans (or a couple of peoples) opinion, it is no more worthy or important than any other person's opinion.

Sometimes it seems like people give the reviews/comparisons at dvdbeaver too much weight, treating them as "gospel".

[Tommaso]

Thus confirming what I've known all along: those who complain the loudest about this co usually knows the least.

Obviously it did not occur to you that I asked that list question because a) I avoided most of the Kino releases you mention because in many cases I had already opted for the Transit/Eureka/Divisa releases, and b) as I said, I wanted the list to leave out the 'disputed middle ground' of silents (after all that foregoing discussion) and wanted advice on the REALLY good and REALLY bad releases from them. This was a technical question, not a question on the historical importance of the respective film. All the films on your list are probably must haves, but not necessarily from Kino if available elsewhere.
Thanks for the info on 'Pomegranates': if it's due to the source materials I stand corrected (admittedly the version shown on German TV recently did not look better). It doesn't excuse unremovable and intrusive subs, though. And no, I don't speak Georgian, I simply want to have the option of enjoying the composition of an image without distraction from time to time.

they really hadn't investigated their catalog all that much

Why should I have done it considering their reputation and the readily available choice of alternatives for many of their dvds in the rest of the world? I am only worried about those films exclusive to them. If you say the Stiller's are fine, fine. That makes me feel better as I will definitely order "Sir Arne" next week....
I have most of the films you mention (though not necessarily from Kino).And I would never trade my Divisa/Film sans Frontieres editions of "Nibelungen", "Nosferatu", "Caligari", "Woman in the Moon" for Kino's. All of the divisa releases could certainly look better and are nowhere near the Transit/Eureka "Mabuse" or "The last laugh", but at least they have the original intertitles and no significant other deficiencies either.
I agree with you on "Avant Garde" and the Griffith box and would even add the "Movies Begin" box (if only for collectors'/historical interest, not because it is technically as good as it could be).

For my money, I have never been disappointed with a Kino release, although I can also say that almost all of them could be improved upon.

Exactly, and I simply would have liked to know those ones which are NOT in need of improvement, technically.

As to the rest of your post, this is an English speaking board. Divisa Red are such a below board co marketingwise (I once tried to upgrade my Kino FAUST to theirs & couldn't even get a site to work to do the transaction... and they're all completely unsubbed & interlaced anyhow).

What kind of an argument is this? Because this is an English speaking board it's okay to have the intertitles replaced? I really can't understand that you of all people who are otherwise very intent about preserving the 'original' state of a film (or even the print used, vide the Dreyer/Jeanne-Criterion discussion) now argue that divisa has to be dismissed simply because they do not cater for those who don't speak Spanish (and there are, sadly, very few companies in the non-english-speaking world that do English subs). If I cannot read Japanese titles and thus must possibly go without an unsubbed/original titled Japanese dvd it's a sad thing, but I would not blame the Japanese for my own lack of that particular language skill. As to getting the divisas: dvdgo.com , as mentioned, is a good source. International ebay is another.

About Denti's divisa question: "Nibelungen" is a must have as long as the new FWS/MoC restoration is still in the works, but as I said, it's not perfect (much grainier and less sharp than most of the others you mention, I have no idea if this is due to the source material or a transfer problem, but I suspect the source here). "Berlin" has original credit titles, but looks more worn than most of the others. It also has a terrible pseudo-avantgardistic electronic soundtrack that really makes it difficult for me to enjoy it. Does the Image disc have that same sound track? Sadly, the divisa does not mention who did this stuff... I'm sure it was NOT Art Zoyd, though...

"Nosferatu" and "Caligari" I have from the French Films sans Frontières label, but I believe they are identical printwise to the divisa. The French discs both look fine to me, and they are really cheapos if you try at ebay Germany or France. German intertitles, of course, and played back at correct 18fps. The soundtrack of the "Nosferatu" seems to differ: divisa has Art Zoyd, FsF another experimental soundtrack made exclusively with violins. Strange, but intriguing in my view ( but then, I really like the Art Zoyd soundtrack for "Faust", and thus will keep my divisa disc even if should update to MoC for the superior extras...

And finally, because I read conflicting reviews about it, one saying it's atrocious and the other it's acceptable ( none of them from the Beaver): has anyone seen Kino's dvd of S. Ray's "The Chess players" and would give advice?

[vogler]

EDIT: Tomasso, they ruined THE COLOR OF POMEGRANITES? That's a near-consensus level good disc. ASHIK KERIB, yes, you're absolutely right, but POMEGRANITES is straight, clean telecine on a pristine vintage print showing you precisely what it looked like upon release. That was a film made on no budget, on the cheapest film stock. I'd really have to disagree on that one. You sure you're talking about the right film?

Are you sure YOU are talking about the right film? The Japanese dvd of Colour of Pomegranate looks absolutely stunning. The colours are far more vivid and it is far sharper than the Kino. In fact the Kino looks absolutely awful in comparison. This is nothing to do with the film stock used to shoot the film - the Kino is just made from a bad print. I don't blame Kino for this, however, and I'm sure they used the best print that they could. The problem with the Japanese dvd is that it is an edited (censored) version.

Generally I am a big Kino supporter and I'm just glad they release this stuff at all. As a huge fan of silent films, particularly European ones I am very grateful to them for making these films available. I own quite a few Kino dvds and hideous music aside (Sosin!!!) I am very happy with them. I generally don't notice most of the flaws people speak of and this is probably because I don't spend time looking for them. I think we need to spend more time watching the films and less time watching the transfers. In an ideal world I would like to see stunning Criterion/MOC quality discs of ultra obscure silent films but as HerrSchreck has pointed out this isn't going to happen. If companies only released beautiful progressive transfers then films like those by Stiller, Fanck etc. would be very unlikely to get released at all. I think it's a fair compromise and it's certainly far better than the appalling tenth generation vhs tapes that I used to watch.

I'm really hoping that Kino is going to release some Victor Sjostrom soon. Terje Vigen, The Phantom Carriage, The Outlaw & His Wife and Love's Crucible are absolute masterpieces and need to be seen. The Stillers that have been released are good although in my opinion the only masterpiece of the three was Sir Arne's Treasure. I really hope that they get round to releasing Gunnar Hedes Saga and Johan, both of which I find to be far better than Gosta Berling or Erotikon. I'm not complaining though and Kino deserve a huge amount of credit for releasing the Stiller discs and all the other forgotten masterpieces - there don't seem to be many other companies who will.

[yoshimori]

... they ruined THE COLOR OF POMEGRANITES? That's a near-consensus level good disc. ... POMEGRANITES is straight, clean telecine on a pristine vintage print showing you precisely what it looked like upon release.

I too am going to have dissent from the consensus on this point. Not only does the r1us disc probably not look like the ur-release print, it doesn't even look close - in color saturation, sharpness - to the decade(s?) old print I saw last year at the UCLA Film Archives. Is the disc unwatachable? No. Is it pristine, etc...? ...

[Tommaso]

The Japanese dvd of Colour of Pomegranate looks absolutely stunning. The colours are far more vivid and it is far sharper than the Kino. In fact the Kino looks absolutely awful in comparison.

ehh.. WHAT?! There's a Japanese dvd of it? PLEASE tell us more, I tried a quick search at cdjapan and they do not seem to have it. How is it censored? I really cannot remember anything that could possibly be objected to in that film. And: are there any other Japanese Paradjanov's you know about? Everything apart from "Ashik-Kerib" (available from Ruscico) is sorely needed...

[yoshimori]

WHAT?! There's a Japanese dvd? ... I tried a quick search at cdjapan and they do not seem to have it.

Here ya go.

I too, btw, am interested to know how it's censored.

[Tommaso]

Many thanks, Yoshimori. I simply spelled "Color" in the English way ("colour"), and thus the search engine did not find it (as the director is nowhere mentioned). Apart from the censorship issue, does it have any subs in a Western language?

[vogler]

ehh.. WHAT?! There's a Japanese dvd of it? PLEASE tell us more

The copy I have is not entirely, erm, legitimate shall we say - don't tell anyone though. However I have the following link to a page on the dvd that my copy was made from.

http://columbia.jp/dvd/titles/zakuro/story.html

I have english, japanese and russian subtitles but I can't be sure that these are on the Japanes dvd. I can't find much information on the disc by searching the net and this is probably because it's all in Japanese.

Here is some info (not written by me) about the censoring of the version on the japanese dvd.

It is well known that Paradjanov was creating his art under unfavorable political and social circumstances of the totalitarian communism in Soviet Union. His affiliations with ethnic traditions and the religious motives of his works were sharply at odds with the unitarism and aggressive atheism of the government. This conflict has caused the existence of several distinct variants of the movie.

The version presented in the Kino Video release (which boasts to be the "director's cut", even though it appears to be debatable) is the one that has been screened in Armenia and has not been approved for a country-wide distribution by the authorities. The movie has been re-edited in an attempt to make it more suitable to the Moscow's official tastes (even though I doubt it has been widely shown even after that), and it is this re-edited version that has made it to the Japanese DVD. The better preservation of the print is probably correlated with the degree of governmental approval.

Below, I have summarized some of the differences between the two versions. Whereas I believe that a true admirer of Paradjanov's artistic legacy should certainly watch the both existing versions of the movie, the Japanese release is probably better suited for the first viewing since the higher image quality is more likely to help the viewer to immerse him- of herself in the unique visual world of the film. It is nevertheless good to keep in mind some of the important differences between the two versions (I'll refer to them as the Soviet and the Armenian version, for obvious reasons):

1) The Soviet version is about 5 minutes shorter. I haven't noticed any pivotal scenes having been cut out. One section that I dearly miss, however, is the low-key interlude where an old woman holding two roosters relates a story of how she went to a bathhouse in Tiflis with her husband, and what a nice bath they had, and how they wanted to buy some grilled meat afterwards, and then they heard that a troubadour came to town, but when they checked it out, he turned out to be not a troubadour, but a cobbler...

2) The original Armenian intertitles with the poems by Sayat Nova have been replaced by (rather mediocre) Russian translations. Please keep in mind that the final intertitles glorifying the immortality of a poet DO NOT appear in the Armenian version.

3) The voiceover reciting from the Book of Genesis that accompanies the opening thunderstorm scene in the Armenian version has been censored by the Soviet authorities

[HerrSchreck]

The list I provided Tomasso, are those for which-- with no guarantee that there is some teeny tiny corner of the world with subs in unreadable Mayan Codices that has a decent interlaced transfer too-- a good english intertitling or subbing is required. And most of the discs on my list don't have alternative, or better (there are some inferior Fairbanks discs) releases around the globe. There are no Transit releases of the non German stuff on my list, which I already pointed out in the appropriate cases there are better releases for. So you don't have "transit" releases of Stiller, Stroe, Fairbanks, Edison, etc.

Ledos, for the zillionth time-- that cap is from the Eureka release.

Tommo,"Because this is an English speaking board it's okay to have the intertitles replaced?"-- son I have no idea what you're talking about. When did I recommend replacing intertitles? I'm giving reccommendations for good Kino discs-- it goes without saying folks here require some form of english in translation/intertitling. Am I going to call your countrymen a bunch of douchebag second-string nitwits for being German and therefore needing dubs or subs when you watch my glorious country's NYC/Hollywood film heritage? It's just life, and a neceesary vehicle for communication. I prefer originals & subs like you. On most of my list there are no better substitutes (there are some unsubbed equivalents that are interlaced), and have avoided the vast bulk of the updated Transit stuff for which there's new restorations.

On the POMEGRANITES issue, what you're seeing is the difference between vintage color sensitivity and modern color sensitivity vis newer restorations perhaps. Back in the day there were about five folks (and all had retired to the cannabis fields of the big Island of Hawaii) who even knew who Sergei Parajanov even was. Shitbudget arthouse flicks in the 60's & 70's looked even worse than what you're seeing on the Kino dvd in the cinema circuit. Forget television. These films are getting serious makeovers nowadays with the films hardly resembling their 1st run originals... and this goes back to the issue, in the age of digital transfers/telecine/coloring, and the loss of older dye processes, what the actual "look" of "the film" is supposed to "be". But the washed out technicolorish, low grade sensitivity of Parajanav (who epitomized a fringe filmmaker, fringe of the fringe of the fringe, working with complete nonprofessionals, with nary a dolly track or a coffee budget) is essentially what the films looked like upon release. And like anyone else I'm anxious for news of upgrades on this material, for which it doesn't sound like a definitive release-- in the case of SAYAT NOVA-- has appeared. "Unwatchable/ruined-the film", however, is just pure chat-board novice posing.

ASHIK KERIB is another story, a genuine total disgrace release like LILIOM. They absolutely positively should have held off until better elements were found.

[Ledos]

Ledos, for the zillionth time-- that cap is from the Eureka release.

(No, this is the first time you directly answered that question)

Okay. If that's case the Eureka version has a different title card than the Transit release. They don't look alike.

[HerrSchreck]

From the original post with the cap (scroll back, dude)

As you can clearly see, these, from the Eureka, are recreated new intertitles:


[screencap]

What the hell is happening to this board lately?

[Tommaso]

Many thanks, Vogler, for this info. Although it's deplorable that this is not the original Armenian cut, the superior image quality probably makes up for it. Most likely Paradjanov fans will have to have both...

[vogler]

On the POMEGRANITES issue, what you're seeing is the difference between vintage color sensitivity and modern color sensitivity vis newer restorations perhaps. Back in the day there were about five folks (and all had retired to the cannabis fields of the big Island of Hawaii) who even knew who Sergei Parajanov even was. Shitbudget arthouse flicks in the 60's & 70's looked even worse than what you're seeing on the Kino dvd in the cinema circuit.

I don't for a minute believe this. Just in case you are wondering the difference between the kino and the japanese dvd is absolutely astounding. I don't know which 'cinema circuit' you are talking about however. The U.S. perhaps? Maybe bad prints were used in small 'arthouse' venues - I really wouldn't know. But did the original film made by Paradjanov look like the Kino print - I doubt it. I agree with you on most of your arguments regarding Kino HerrSchreck but it feels like you may now be misleading people to maintain the illusion that you are right - I think sometimes it's better to admit you may be wrong.

The Kino dvd - no it's definitely not unwatchable and I'm very glad to have it in my collection.

As for supplying the information about the Japanese dvd, I'm glad to help Tommaso. Did you manage to find out if there are any English subtitles on the dvd? I can only find information in Japanese. If there are I may consider buying the Japanese dvd and upgrading my somewhat dubious copy of it. In any case the film is very visual and would probably still be worth owning anyway, especially if you are familiar with the translations on the Kino version.

[Tommaso]

. Did you manage to find out if there are any English subtitles on the dvd? I can only find information in Japanese.

Me as well, so no news about it. As on your copy you have three different options (none of which is Chinese, apparently), I would assume that it's a straight port of the original. I think I'll put it on my list for the next Japan shopping (which may still take some weeks regarding the number of unwatched films that have amassed here in recent time...)

[HerrSchreck]

[I don't for a minute believe this... but it feels like you may now be misleading people just to maintain the illusion that you are right - I think sometimes it's better to admit you may be wrong.

.

Have you witnessed the phenomenon that I'm speaking of? Are you over say 35 where you saw even big budget color features from WB that looked completely different in the cinema than they do nowadays, and are you privvy to the digital-age discussion that's ongoing on this topic?

I wouldnt deliberately mislead anyone about anything-- I'd appreciate an apology on that if you kids plan on hanging around here. No offense but this German Crew coming in on this thread sound very young. And very VERY new to this board, to the kind of discussions we have around here, and what I myself am all about... and deliberate deception is not one of them. Only someone new here could say something so absurd to me. Ledos & Vogler & the rest of you guys, enough already. Find something nice to talk about. Start a thread, open a positive line of discussion. Stop attacking tired sleepy Schreck because you're European & want to say something heavy on German silents.

[vogler]

Stop attacking tired sleepy Schreck because you're European & want to say something heavy on German silents.

You do a fair bit of attacking and insulting yourself Schreck - I thought you'd be able to take it. The post you just made for example - very presumtuous and patronising. I don't mean to cause offence and as I stated I agree with much of what you say but you were presenting this information on Pomegranate like it was gospel truth and had convinced others on the board of your point of view. I think it pays to keep an open mind on these things. A number of people who know far more about this film than I have told me that the prints they have seen have been far better than the Kino so I tend to believe them.

Let's keep it open minded and balanced.

I did want to talk about something nice a few posts back - Stiller and Sjostrom silents - some of my most beloved films of all time. Do you think there's any likelyhood we'll see the release of films like Terje Vigen, The Phantom Carriage, The Outlaw & His Wife and Love's Crucible any time soon on Kino? And Gunnar Hedes Saga and Johan by Stiller? All masterpieces that need to be seen.

[HerrSchreck]

Agreed on all points. We've been waiting for CC to put out the most basic of basic Sjostrom "PHANTOM COACH" forever, but I'm not holding my breath. Someone said a girl at Kino heard from someone at CC that the are putting out PANDORAS BOX, but this isn't anywhere near as desperately needed as the Sjostrom & Stiller titles you just mentioned.

To explain myself a bit further, the anger at the "interlaced" "ghosting" sniffing... I was just pm'ing someone about this and my feeling is this:

There is so so much that needs to come out in the zone of silents. Nick at MoC made a nice start but he's slowed down an incredible amount, partly, I believe, because of exposure to this kind of conversation, where now he feels if he releases something in an interlaced edition, he's going to be relegated to the psychological schlock bin, and has let his people down. And this serves to slow the rate that we'll get to see these films down so much, once we get past the new editions of all the old Lang/Murnau standby's, we'll all be dead & gone.

My anger is at the idea-- and no I rarely will jump on someone out of the blue who hasn't attacked me and say BULLSHIT! your belief is bull-poo (because frankly I dont care enough and operate viz "Cest La Vie".. though you're right I have my moments too)-- the idea of not wanting these editions to come out at all because they are not going to be perfect. And by that I mean replaced theatrical intertitles or non-progressive framing. I'm one of those psycho loons who loves this kind of film so so so so (and anyone who's been around here long enough knows that about me and thus knows I wouldn't steer anyone towards something I dont myself own & love) much that I own every single film I discuss. I don't even have a rental membership anwhere, and haven't for at least 3 yrs.

When a new title comes out that didn't previously exist (that's substantively worth something to see, of course) I can't help myself-- I must own it. That's the reason I know so much about all these silent releases... I could do a similar list for Image & Milestone BFI etc but they don't get abused the same way... I hear "O I wouldn't buy that, that's probably not progressive, etc," and I say to myself "couldn't really be hopelessly in love with silent film, otherwise would have no choice but buy the film like a grovelling slave and make the surprising discovery that this is actually not a bad release".

On POMEGRANITES, lets phrase the question this way. Kino received that print from the Russians, when the film was smoked out, from the days when the film was occasionally, rarely circulating in the LD/VHS era. The contrast is basically sharp, black levels par. The question (a friendly one) is: Why do you think the print's color looks the way it does?

[vogler]

The question (a friendly one) is: Why do you think the print's color looks the way it does?

I really can't say but from what I have seen and what people more knowledgeable than I have told me I tend to believe that the Kino print is not a very good one. There is the issue of the two versions of the film as well - maybe there is no decent quality print of Paradjanov's original version in existence. I don't really know.

With regards to the whole interlaced, progressive, ghosting blah, blah, blah I can't help feeling that sometimes it might be better if people just weren't aware of this techno crap. It seems to be really impeding people's ability to enjoy a good film. For a while I even started checking whether dvds were encoded progressively or interlaced using power dvd but then I though shit, I've been indoctrinated with techno crap by the beav. No offence to beaver who do provide a wonderful service.

I have many interlaced dvds that look and play great, far too much emphasis is being placed on this. Let's just get the films out there so we can see them. If people stop looking for faults in dvds they may stop noticing them and enjoy the films. There are of course exceptions where dvds really do look like a right piece of shite.

Whilst I love MOC I do actually kind of miss the old eureka who were releasing far more films, especially silents - they were kind of the kino for the U.K. (where I am from) so I kind of loved them as you love Kino. I think you are absolutely right that the silents coming from MOC have slowed down because of this techno babble and I think it's a real shame.

Just a few more films that I really hope get released by Kino (or someone else):
L'Herbier silents - mostly L'Inhumaine & L'Argent - where the hell are these.
Jean Epstein Coeur Fidele and others
Gance - where the hell are the Gance dvds - I can't believe there aren't any except the australian Naploeon - what about La Roue and J'Accuse.
Why has Gance been largely forgotten in favour of the Russians and Germans (all great of couse). Anyone who hasn't seen Gance will be amazed to discover that rapid cutting wasn't invented by the Russians at all.
Kinugasa - we must have Page of Madness.
The list goes on and on....

I really hope we see some of these soon and if they are interlaced then fine. I don't even care if they have ghosting etc. I just really would like to see these masterpieces on dvd.

[HerrSchreck]

You have good taste and it's a lot like mine. And like my old comrade DaveHare just wrote in a pm, it's the viewing experience that counts. I have some VHS's taped off of 80's tv which murder me more than progressive dvd's.

Have you by any chance been keeping up on the (momentarily derailed) fascinating info about Gance's NAPOLEAN on it's dedicated thread here? Lots of new (and hopelessly depressing, in it's answers to your question re why no dvd outside of the atrophied australian edition) news therein by someone obviously on the inner periphery of the 04 Brownlow resto.

[vogler]

Have you by any chance been keeping up on the (momentarily derailed) fascinating info about Gance's NAPOLEAN on it's dedicated thread here?

I have and I am utterly disgusted with Copploa - is he trying to compete with Irving Thalberg for the most terrible abuse of a film masterpiece of all time. The man is a ***t (As if Bram Stoker's Dracula wasn't enough - what a piece of crap - Bram Stokers my arse). I missed the London screenings of Napoleon for which I will never forgive myself. I have the Australian dvd and am quite happy with it all things considered.
My question is more concerning La Roue and J'Accuse - do these have similar legal issues and if not I don't see why there is no sign of a dvd release. Please Kino release some Gance.
I already have copies of most of the films I have mentioned as .avi files, some excellent quality and some terrible, mostly without subtitles but I would really like to have decent versions on dvd.

I think I may be going off the kino topic. I hope Kino release some Gance if at all possible.

EDIT: I didn't mean to say that bram stoker actually is my arse - I am merely disputing the fact that this version is 'Bram Stoker's' version as claimed by Coppola.

[justeleblanc]

I like the use of 'arse' as if we were reading Fox Lorber subtitles.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

I like the use of 'arse' as if we were reading Fox Lorber subtitles.

Bram! Stoker my arse! might have scanned better.

[Scharphedin2]

I have started compiling an "annotated" list of Kino's releases:

http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/vie ... 9072#79072

Basically it is just a compilation of external reviews and forum members' comments. It will take some time to finish, but hopefully it can be a good resource. Comments and help is welcome.

One can really only be in awe, once diving into Kino's catalogue like this. There really are a lot of interesting titles that I had forgotten, or, not even heard about. Great with the sale at DDD

[justeleblanc]

Wow! Great job with the annotations!!!!

[zedz]

Are you sure YOU are talking about the right film? The Japanese dvd of Colour of Pomegranate looks absolutely stunning. The colours are far more vivid and it is far sharper than the Kino. In fact the Kino looks absolutely awful in comparison. This is nothing to do with the film stock used to shoot the film - the Kino is just made from a bad print. I don't blame Kino for this, however, and I'm sure they used the best print that they could. The problem with the Japanese dvd is that it is an edited (censored) version.

This has come up before, and I think the difference in quality reflects the two different edits of the film. Paradzhanov's original edit made it to the west some time in the early 80s (I think), and whenever I've seen it it's been a bit washed out and muted (and 16mm). The 35mm print I've seen several times has vastly superior picture quality and stronger, truer colour. Unfortunately, it's the Yutkevich re-edit. I've never seen the two versions side by side and did not notice any major differences between the two, but if the Kino is the Paradzhanov edit, there may not be better elements in existence.

EDIT: Looks like vogler beat me to it above!