Criterion Discussion and Random Speculation Volume 7

[Mark L.]

I would bet on Criterion releasing the Doinel set on 4K. They have bigger budgets than the BFI so need less justification for it and, by all accounts, Ben Stoddart's skepticism was specific to The 400 Blows while reviews of the French set are pretty positive towards the later Doinel films.

I’m not so sure. I mean they decided to skip 4K for The Worst Person in the World and Drive My Car, which are sure to sell more copies than a Doinel box. Even Tales of Hoffman, an older film that would have really taken advantage of a 4K disk, didn’t get one. Criterion have been more cautious with what they decide to put on 4K than I was expecting.

I think what’s more likely is they do what Arrow did with the Children of the Corn set in the UK (probably the first time these series have been compared in recorded history) and have the flagship title be in 4K with the rest on regular old bluray all in the same box.

[The Narrator Returns]

I won't speak for Hoffmann but Worst Person and Drive My Car were both finished at 2K, and Criterion hasn't yet put out a 4K upscale like those would be.

[Calvin]

I’m not so sure. I mean they decided to skip 4K for The Worst Person in the World and Drive My Car, which are sure to sell more copies than a Doinel box. Even Tales of Hoffman, an older film that would have really taken advantage of a 4K disk, didn’t get one. Criterion have been more cautious with what they decide to put on 4K than I was expecting.

They've been less cautious than I was expecting - For All Mankind? Devil in a Blue Dress? Shaft? I don't think those are titles that people would have questioned if they had chosen to release them on Blu-Ray only. I don't think any other label would have taken the gamble.

There were technical reasons behind them not releasing Worst Person and Drive My Car on 4K UHD.

[Computer Raheem]

I’m not so sure. I mean they decided to skip 4K for The Worst Person in the World and Drive My Car, which are sure to sell more copies than a Doinel box. Even Tales of Hoffman, an older film that would have really taken advantage of a 4K disk, didn’t get one. Criterion have been more cautious with what they decide to put on 4K than I was expecting.

I think what’s more likely is they do what Arrow did with the Children of the Corn set in the UK (probably the first time these series have been compared in recorded history) and have the flagship title be in 4K with the rest on regular old bluray all in the same box.

To be fair to Criterion (and to piggyback off of what Narrator say already), Drive My Car was shot and finished in 2K, and while I've seen conflicting info about what The Worst Person In The World was finished at, the master that Neon provided to Criterion is in 2K. Criterion appears to be hesitant to do 2K-to-4K upscales, and will only put a film on 4K if the master was already done in that resolution. While that doesn't explain why a film like Tales of Hoffman didn't receive a UHD disc (other than what I could imagine being a presumed lack of interest), it does explain why some recent films have had a UHD release ruled out.

They've been less cautious than I was expecting - For All Mankind? Devil in a Blue Dress? Shaft? I don't think those are titles that people would have questioned if they had chosen to release them on Blu-Ray only. I don't think any other label would have taken the gamble.

There were technical reasons behind them not releasing Worst Person and Drive My Car on 4K UHD.

I think there would some outrage over Shaft not getting a UHD with a 4K restoration, but I'll second Criterion not being entirely cautious with what Criterion has released on UHD. While obvious high-profile titles (Citizen Kane, Double Indemnity, Raging Bull) and recent titles (Uncut Gems, Okja, Sound of Metal) make sense in 4K, others, like Menace II Society, The Last Waltz, and For All Mankind, show that 4K is a proper commitment to Criterion. It only seems that financial considerations (Tales of Hoffman) or resolution issues (anything restored or finished in 2K) keep a title from UHD.

[Mark L.]

They've been less cautious than I was expecting - For All Mankind? Devil in a Blue Dress? Shaft? I don't think those are titles that people would have questioned if they had chosen to release them on Blu-Ray only. I don't think any other label would have taken the gamble.

There were technical reasons behind them not releasing Worst Person and Drive My Car on 4K UHD.

I’ll take a mulligan on Drive My Car and Worst Person. Forgot about the 2K factor.

I’d still disagree that Criterion hasn’t been cautious. For All Mankind was also an early bluray upgrade, there must be some factor we’re not considering that makes upgrading that a no brainer for them. Shaft I think is legitimately a big title, so not surprised there. Devil in a Blue Dress is a little surprising, but I think it’s in line with Criterion’s commitment to releasing films by a more diverse selection of filmmakers, which is extending into 4K. I think that also explains Menace 2 Society and Virgin Suicides (an upgrade I wasn’t expecting for a while).

If all caution was truly thrown to the wind, I think Pink Flamingos (a notable film people having been begging Criterion for and features a restoration in 4K) would have been a 4K release. I think some people on the board were even surprised it wasn’t.

[Matt]

I was pretty certain For All Mankind was timed to coincide with the 2022 anniversaries of the Kennedy Space Center and the Apollo program, not to mention all the other space program films that were recently popular (like that Apollo 11 IMAX movie).

[ryannichols7]

not to mention, For All Mankind has always been a really big title for Janus anyway as they were fairly involved with it - the Turrells are thanked in the credits and there's a piece on the Channel with Jonathan talking about it. it's definitely as much of a "flagship" title for them as anything else in the library, and one they're obviously immensely proud of - rightfully so, I may add (it's a personal favorite)

I do think Criterion is taking risks with the format and thinking outside the box, compared to the initial Bluray era where they took a lot of big ticket titles, be it Janus holdings (The Seventh Seal, Walkabout) or easy studio licenses (Fear and Loathing, Bottle Rocket, et al). I certainly would've never expected Devil in a Blue Dress as such a release, nor do I see as many people excited for it as they were Menace II Society or Shaft - now Criterion need to do it all right and release some more asian films on the format - Okja isn't cutting it. which speaking of that - I don't think the average collector would've expected the first Japanese UHD from Criterion to be a horror film from a Kurosawa..and not Akira! but we'll find out in the morning if that guess stands or not. I personally think it would be silly to not release anything remotely resembling horror on the format - those collectors are rabid, insane, and will buy basically anything 4K, you'd be silly to not cash in on it! I'd also love to see Millennium Mambo but that would be a dream. I wonder what other Asian titles would be in consideration? the Wong Kar-Wais would've been an easy pick but that doesn't seem to be happening. Crouching Tiger would've been a great grab but Sony did it themselves, as they have for almost all of their 4K releases. I wonder if they'd dare to do A Brighter Summer Day or Yi Yi, especially since the latter supposedly has a new restoration and the Bluray can absolutely be updated on.

I'm sure Roma will eventually come too to cover a latino base as well - it should've been 4K from the beginning, like Parasite, The Irishman, Fast Times.., among others.

as for Pink Flamingos, I want someone to attend John Waters' shows to ask him about that. a good slew of directors are actually against 4K/UHD - Paul Thomas Anderson most notably appears to be so (Licorice Pizza was literally shot on 65mm and yet?), Barry Sonnenfeld is actively on Lee Kline's podcast being against HDR, and I feel like there's another example out there. maybe Waters felt that the film should've been kept "trashy"? but then why do a restoration - clearly David Lynch has no issues with this for Inland Empire. I find it all very intriguing (and I'm more intrigued by Waters himself than his films) but that's absolutely a title that would've sold well on the format. I can complain about Written on the Wind, Mississippi Masala, The Tales of Hoffmann, and Summertime not getting the format bump, but I will completely concede that Pink Flamingos is a bigger title that I trust would've sold well enough as a UHD. but who knows, I definitely am curious of the answer!

[rrenault]

Well Blow Out and Devil in a Blue Dress are both post-1980 films starring A-list Hollywood actors. That alone gives them both a built-in market a Michael Powell film wouldn't have. Of the 18 UHDs so far, only four are pre-1970. Two of those four sit comfortably on the IMdb top 250, one is a Beatles film, and, well, it's The Beatles, and the other has obvious appeal as a demo title if authored properly, regardless of the financial considerations, while also being a pet favorite of Martin Scorsese.

There's also the "would some relatively curious film bro blind buy this" factor I think. The Tales of Hoffmann is clearly a no, whereas I'd put Menace II Society, Devil in a Blue Dress, and Le Cercle Rouge in the 'yes' category. Rouge is a genre film and has the Mann/Woo factor going for it, as well. Post-1970 films, especially when they're genre films and/or star recognizable actors (i.e. Denzel Washington), tend to be easier sells to some more casual film fans, and Menace is definitely the type of film one could easily see Arrow releasing on UHD.

[Calvin]

not to mention, For All Mankind has always been a really big title for Janus anyway as they were fairly involved with it - the Turrells are thanked in the credits and there's a piece on the Channel with Jonathan talking about it. it's definitely as much of a "flagship" title for them as anything else in the library, and one they're obviously immensely proud of - rightfully so, I may add (it's a personal favorite)

Nevertheless, it's surely something of a surprise that a company that was initially very resistant to UHD would choose a title that originates from a 35mm blow-up of 16mm footage as one of its first forays. Personally I just wouldn't call it a 'cautious' choice - not everything that sells well on previous formats is guaranteed to transfer its audience across and if they were playing it cautious I would have expected them to focus on more obviously 'visual' titles: Malick, Fellini, King Hu, etc.

I wonder what other Asian titles would be in consideration? the Wong Kar-Wais would've been an easy pick but that doesn't seem to be happening. Crouching Tiger would've been a great grab but Sony did it themselves, as they have for almost all of their 4K releases. I wonder if they'd dare to do A Brighter Summer Day or Yi Yi, especially since the latter supposedly has a new restoration and the Bluray can absolutely be updated on.

Considering they're already from 4K masters, I'd have thought Once Upon a Time in China and the King Hu titles would be most likely. Unsure what their HDR status is though.

[rrenault]

For what it's worth, I see a lot more resistance/indifference to UHD in various corners of film culture than one did with respect to blu-ray a decade ago. This ranges from certain film directors, such as the Coens, to certain subsets of cinephiles mainly preoccupied with discovering rare forgotten films unlikely to ever make it to the format.

[EddieLarkin]

I suspect that whether or not a title has an HDR master available is going to be the biggest factor. Devil in a Blue Dress clearly did, so why opt for BD only even if it is seen as a minor entry in the catalog? Whereas Tales of Hoffman was presumably only available in its 2015 SDR master. That's certainly a big long awaited upgrade, but there's little point in using funds for a UHD if you only have a fairly outdated source.

It would be interesting to know if Criterion, since moving to UHD, have released a film that is known to have been available in HDR, but opted for BD only.

[rrenault]

It would be interesting to know if Criterion, since moving to UHD, have released a film that is known to have been available in HDR, but opted for BD only.

One Night in Miami possibly. In all honesty, The Virgin Suicides and Devil in a Blue Dress are the only titles I was massively surprised to see get a UHD release so soon. With films like For All Mankind and Menace II Society I could just chalk it up to them “having their reasons”. The Last Waltz has the Scorsese factor. After all, some of the less popular Hitchcock and Kubrick films are getting released on UHD by other labels.

And since Menace, Mankind, and The Last Waltz are all reference discs per Finch, the point of whether or not it was worth a UHD seems moot to me.

[Calvin]

It would be interesting to know if Criterion, since moving to UHD, have released a film that is known to have been available in HDR, but opted for BD only.

I suppose another question would be are Criterion giving all of their new 4K restorations an HDR pass? Summertime would be an example of a recent 4K restoration that has been kept Blu-Ray only, so if it doesn't have an HDR master that was presumably a choice in the restoration phase itself. I've not yet had time to listen to the full HDR panel chaired by Lee Kline at Il Cinema Ritrovato.

And since Menace, Mankind, and The Last Waltz are all reference discs per Finch, the point of whether or not it was worth a UHD seems moot to me.

I don't think anyone was debating their worth but just whether Criterion would be too 'cautious' to release the full Antoine Doinel set on UHD and, considering they've all been released on 4K HDR in France, I really would be shocked if they don't.

[Roger Ryan]

... I've not yet had time to listen to the full HDR panel chaired by Lee Kline at Il Cinema Ritrovato...

I did watch the entirety of this panel. While very interesting, the level of discussion wasn't nearly as in-depth or technical as found here on this forum. The main points being the need to educate filmmakers that HDR is a tool to enhance what's already on the negative, not add anything to it... while still being careful not to overdo HDR enhancement when doing a 4K restoration because you can ruin the look of a film! The fact that one panelist routinely referred to UHD discs as "Blu-rays" was emblematic of the lightness of the discussion.

[barbarella satyricon]

...

[therewillbeblus]

Don't second guess yourself, Bringing Out the Dead will be announced as a literal dedication to Halloween month

[yoloswegmaster]

Announcements are delayed till Monday, though it looks like Lost Highway will be announced for October.

[eerik]

1968 USA
1944 USA
1997 France
1997 Japan
2019 Guatemala
1997 USA

[domino harvey]

A reminder to all to not be a dick now that we have an insider clue again

[domino harvey]

Also I’m going to guess 1944 USA is Laura

[FrauBlucher]

guesses
1944 Laura
1997 Japan Cure
Obviously 1997 USA Lost Highway

[domino harvey]

1997 France— I’d bet Ma vie en rose, knowing Criterion (though technically it’s Belgian, but I don’t know what other French film from this year Criterion would realistically release— the Resnais doesn’t translate for non-French audiences, and the Guédiguian is his most popular film but is he even remotely well known enough here for Criterion to release it?)

[FrauBlucher]

guesses
1944 Laura
1997 Japan Cure
Obviously 1997 USA Lost Highway

1968 Night of the Living Dead UHD

[criterionsnob]

1968 Night of the Living Dead

[Never Cursed]

...is Criterion releasing La Llorona (not to be confused with The Curse of La Llorona from the same year)???