218 Le cercle rouge

[bugsy_pal]

A similar thing was done with blurays of Diva - the French bluray and the Kino bluray have different text in the opening credits. The Kino appears to have original titles, as they look a bit fuzzy as you might expect from a film source. The French titles are sharper and the font and some characters are different. They did a pretty good job of duplicating original text animations in the credits.

What is more disturbing is that the two discs are in different pitch. The French disc is higher pitched, as if it has PAL speedup. I am hoping that the KL has not been incorrectly slowed down. I can't tell which is correct.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

I've seen plenty of restorations where at least some of the credits/titles have obviously been redone—as tenia said, the stability of the recreated text is usually a giveaway. Amusingly I've also seen one restoration (Woman Demon Human) that was missing those elements altogether, which made the opening and closing seem a bit more avant-garde than intended.

[dwk]

A similar thing was done with blurays of Diva - the French bluray and the Kino bluray have different text in the opening credits. The Kino appears to have original titles, as they look a bit fuzzy as you might expect from a film source. The French titles are sharper and the font and some characters are different. They did a pretty good job of duplicating original text animations in the credits.

What is more disturbing is that the two discs are in different pitch. The French disc is higher pitched, as if it has PAL speedup. I am hoping that the KL has not been incorrectly slowed down. I can't tell which is correct.

Ordinarily it would be safe to assume that Kino screwed up, but StudioCanal has a long history of issuing discs with the wrong pitch.

[trobrianders]

A similar thing was done with blurays of Diva - the French bluray and the Kino bluray have different text in the opening credits. The Kino appears to have original titles, as they look a bit fuzzy as you might expect from a film source. The French titles are sharper and the font and some characters are different. They did a pretty good job of duplicating original text animations in the credits.

What is more disturbing is that the two discs are in different pitch. The French disc is higher pitched, as if it has PAL speedup. I am hoping that the KL has not been incorrectly slowed down. I can't tell which is correct.

Ordinarily it would be safe to assume that Kino screwed up, but StudioCanal has a long history of issuing discs with the wrong pitch.

Je n'aime pas PAL speedup

[trobrianders]

My 2011 Criterion blu of Le cercle rouge has 'browned' and won't play. I guess a replacement disc, if it's approved, will be the Studiocanal version. I preferred the color on the Criterion disc.

By the way retailers are trying to sell the Studiocanal 4K UHD really cheap, £10-12. Not selling well?

[therewillbeblus]

My 2011 Criterion blu of Le cercle rouge has 'browned' and won't play. I guess a replacement disc, if it's approved, will be the Studiocanal version. I preferred the color on the Criterion disc.

Perhaps.. but I'm not so sure. This is the one Criterion 4K release that has only one option for purchase, the UHD, which leads me to believe they're not manufacturing straight blus outside of the package. I mean, I have no idea how manufacturing discs work, but if they were able to press blus for replacements why wouldn't they also offer the blu-only option? You might get lucky, if this is indicative that they have extra blus lying around. I'd at least email Mulvaney to ask. It's always worth asking, and they give you a prompt, straight answer.

[trobrianders]

My 2011 Criterion blu of Le cercle rouge has 'browned' and won't play. I guess a replacement disc, if it's approved, will be the Studiocanal version. I preferred the color on the Criterion disc.

Perhaps.. but I'm not so sure. This is the one Criterion 4K release that has only one option for purchase, the UHD, which leads me to believe they're not manufacturing straight blus outside of the package. I mean, I have no idea how manufacturing discs work, but if they were able to press blus for replacements why wouldn't they also offer the blu-only option? You might get lucky, if this is indicative that they have extra blus lying around. I'd at least email Mulvaney to ask. It's always worth asking, and they give you a prompt, straight answer.

You know I didn't stop to consider that but I won't be bummed if they're unable to replace. I already emailed their support desk so I guess I'll hear back soon. I'll let you know what they say out of interest.

[therewillbeblus]

Good luck! I'm planning to double dip, but I'm holding onto my copy from the Studiocanal Melville blu-ray set which has a considerably polar-opposite color palette that I really enjoy. If you don't have that set and like the other Melvilles in it, it may be worth picking up for cheap concurrently (not sure if it's region-free though)- though maybe I'm just strange for my interest in examining the film under totally different visual tones to see if it changes the mood at all underneath

[trobrianders]

Good luck! I'm planning to double dip, but I'm holding onto my copy from the Studiocanal Melville blu-ray set which has a considerably polar-opposite color palette that I really enjoy. If you don't have that set and like the other Melvilles in it, it may be worth picking up for cheap concurrently (not sure if it's region-free though)- though maybe I'm just strange for my interest in examining the film under totally different visual tones to see if it changes the mood at all underneath

Thanks. I have the set. I often double up as UK titles are so damned cheap pre-owned and almost always contain different extras. In my experience Artificial Eye and Arrow are the best match for Criterion PQ/AQ. Studiocanal not so much, and anyway I'm biased against them (and Gaumont and Pathe) for releasing thousands of amazing French films on blu-ray, among them films by favorite filmmaker Bertrand Blier, but without English subtitles which I just don't get at all. It can't be a sound commercial decision. Are they so bloody-minded as to believe if foreigners want to enjoy French culture they have to learn French!

[rrenault]

My 2011 Criterion blu of Le cercle rouge has 'browned' and won't play. I guess a replacement disc, if it's approved, will be the Studiocanal version. I preferred the color on the Criterion disc.

By the way retailers are trying to sell the Studiocanal 4K UHD really cheap, £10-12. Not selling well?

To be fair, the 2011 blu-ray of Le Cercle Rouge is a "known issue" disc, so you might be lucky in trying to get it replaced.

[rrenault]

Good luck! I'm planning to double dip, but I'm holding onto my copy from the Studiocanal Melville blu-ray set which has a considerably polar-opposite color palette that I really enjoy. If you don't have that set and like the other Melvilles in it, it may be worth picking up for cheap concurrently (not sure if it's region-free though)- though maybe I'm just strange for my interest in examining the film under totally different visual tones to see if it changes the mood at all underneath

Thanks. I have the set. I often double up as UK titles are so damned cheap pre-owned and almost always contain different extras. In my experience Artificial Eye and Arrow are the best match for Criterion PQ/AQ. Studiocanal not so much, and anyway I'm biased against them (and Gaumont and Pathe) for releasing thousands of amazing French films on blu-ray, among them films by favorite filmmaker Bertrand Blier, but without English subtitles which I just don't get at all. It can't be a sound commercial decision. Are they so bloody-minded as to believe if foreigners want to enjoy French culture they have to learn French!

Hmm, I was under the impression Gaumont was one of the few French companies that does include English subs on its blu-rays. Gaumont's Pialat blu-rays are all English-friendly, for instance, as are City of Women and French Cancan. Studio Canal only does so when the film is getting released in an English-speaking territory by them directly. MK2 never includes English subs on its discs.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

So, Criterion messed up the encode on this one? Take a look at the smudged grain here: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0 ... 38&i=3&l=0

[Costa]

So, Criterion messed up the encode on this one? Take a look at the smudged grain here: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0 ... 38&i=3&l=0

Well, it wouldn't be the first time.

Although other screenshots look better in the Criterion. Look eg. at the sky here:
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=29 ... &i=11&go=1

And what is this? Chroma noise it is called?
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=12 ... 0&i=8&go=1

Really, don't know what release to pick.

[EddieLarkin]

Both releases are using FEL Dolby Vision, meaning those caps are not showing how the compression will appear during playback on either release. Both will look better (assuming you're DV capable). My money would be on the Criterion being the best given it has literally double the AVB (and indeed does already look better overall in HDR10, once you consider the dark areas)

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

Thanks, Eddie. So, basically, what you're saying is that caps-a-holic's UHD comparisons are useless. Of course one would always see a difference in resolution and detail (in most cases), but other than that? I see, though, that they include a nits number: Criterion 100 vs. SC 80, so the encodes certainly are different. And, if I've understood your many, very informative, previous posts, if one doesn't have DV capabilities, the SC would look less blown out than the Criterion, right?

[EddieLarkin]

DV enhancement layers cannot be recombined with the base layer to create a screencap, so everyone's comparisons of DV FEL discs are "useless", not just caps-a-holic's. Outside of DV FEL discs, caps of UHD/HDR sources are great for comparing compression.

The nits number they are quoting is regarding their own SDR conversion, and isn't representative of the disc. No idea why they'd capture one set at 80 and another at 100. As for how the discs will look in HDR10, since they are the same master they should have the same HDR10 metadata, meaning they should look the same in terms of HDR reproduction.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

Thanks for clearing that up, Eddie. Makes sense. Since I don't have DV capabilities, I guess it's no big deal to me, other than for future-proofing. I was confused about caps-a-holic's nits numbers as I thought referred to the mastering as in Sony's archival titles being mastered at very high nits levels -- which just doesn't look good on my (projector) system.

[mhofmann]

DV enhancement layers cannot be recombined with the base layer to create a screencap, so everyone's comparisons of DV FEL discs are "useless", not just caps-a-holic's. Outside of DV FEL discs, caps of UHD/HDR sources are great for comparing compression.

There should be zero need to encode that kind of high-frequency detail in DV enhancement layers as opposed to the base layer. Sounds like a very careless approach to me at best if it's even true. No one conclusively demonstrated with visual evidence yet that DV FEL actually saves any of the Criterion encodes...

[EddieLarkin]

There should be zero need to encode that kind of high-frequency detail in DV enhancement layers as opposed to the base layer. Sounds like a very careless approach to me at best if it's even true. No one conclusively demonstrated with visual evidence yet that DV FEL actually saves any of the Criterion encodes...

There is zero need for it. Indeed, it's precisely why David M almost never uses it. Why waste disc space on an exclusive enhancement layer when ultra grainy sources need all the bitrate they can get in the base layer?

But you seem to be under the impression that it's being done deliberately, which I doubt is true. Rather, it's simply a byproduct of the nature of FEL. If your HDR10 base is iffy, then the FEL will automatically fill in at least some of those gaps when the comparison with the source master is performed and the difference data is generated. In other words, Criterion discs played back in DV will look better than HDR10, the question is by how much? It may be insignificantly so, or it may be a great deal. Since you can't demonstrate it with screen grabs, it is hard to determine this.

That said, there are plenty of phone screenshots about that show the improvements FEL does for other discs, if you haven't seen them?

[mhofmann]

If your HDR10 base is iffy (...)

Well, it shouldn't be, so I'd call that a deliberate act even if it is incompetence.

[Michael Kerpan]

So -- is the best way to depict what something actually looks like on a properly-calibrated screen taking a photo (with a good quality camera) and then making certain what you caught is color-matched properly to the (paused) screen?

[EddieLarkin]

I doubt you'd really be able to achieve fidelity that way, but it's the only way to capture any differences between the HDR10 base and the DV FEL.

[tenia]

I doubt you'd really be able to achieve fidelity that way, but it's the only way to capture any differences between the HDR10 base and the DV FEL.

Geoff D is kind of doing this on Blu-ray.com when he wants to show differences between the HDR10 base layer and the HDR+DV stream, that's the only thing he wants to show and he reminds people everytime about how they shouldn't be using these for anything else. In cases like the problematic SC UHD encodes of some Carpenter movies, it does the job anyway.
But if you want to do more than this, I'm even sure you could do it with such a good setup, because you'd end up adding several layers of intermediates between the screencaptures and the digital sources anyway, even if possibly negligible. Since we're already discussing the distorsions on Beaver caps, it's very likely these would be discussed too.

[therewillbeblus]

Regardless of what is ‘right’, I find the bleaker color palette of the SC blu to be more meaningful to what I get from the film: namely that the sterile atmosphere these characters populate manifests as a gravitational force of spiritual (rather than corporeal) betrayal. When taken this as a given, schematically representing powerlessness over this objective worldview in the way the film is shot, the details for how the characters are constantly surrendering to and -within that compromise- ascending from their milieu's pull, to actualize meaningful exchanges of intimacy, become more pronounced and consequentially profound. I like that I have to work a bit harder as a viewer to discern these moments against the formidable portrait of what they’re up against and working within to achieve these existential wins, and I’m not sure the film would play as celebratory regarding the meditations on the power of agency if the exterior space were brightly lit with a sunny glow.

Having said that, I’ll probably pick this up anyways, if only to give myself an opportunity to find new significance under different conditions. Maybe it won’t change anything. Maybe the new color grading will reveal other invisible depths and allow me to have an entirely novel experience.

I finally watched the Criterion UHD and have mixed feelings overall for how the color timing affects the filmgoing experience (for the first time ever, who am I?) The yellowy skin tones are particularly bold in the bookends, but also during several other scenes to varying degrees of annoyance. I wasn't bothered too much in brightly lit scenes with Delon (though the early pool room scene did indeed feature yellow cue balls when they escaped into the shadows), nor was it a problem when he hides the guns in the boot of his car in the beating-down sun (weather is au naturale), and the nightclub just seems like a seedy place where lighting would bleach all you see in the color of urine and cheap ale - and those places often are, in my experience. The overcast scenes still retained their power, and if anything, the brighter skin tones only elevated the juxtaposition between the cool exteriors and the existential demand to resist the cosmic betrayal with harmonious codes of trust and respect. Love amongst thieves, if you will. Though as an aside, the sunnier sheen really emphasized something I missed about that first section: All within a few hours, we see Delon get out of his car on what could mirror as as L.A. interstate in the hot summer sun, then dining in a cafe in a wintry mix of snow and sleet, and then confronting Volonté in a muddy field in what appears to be spring rain... Paris weather, I guess!

Anyways, the real problems with the color occurred whenever Inspector Mattei popped up. I don't know if it's just Bourvil's pale complexion compared to the likes of Delon and Volonté's tanner skin that makes him light up like a bulb under this mixing, but their skin tones are like night and day different. This really irritated me until the very end, when a light-bulb the shade of Bourvil went off in my mind, and a recontextualized reading emerged in specific reference to this color palette: That figures and spaces that represented a sense of faux-safety and deceptively purist morality shone the brightest. These indoor rooms of business, order, expectations... these policemen and their ethical guidelines that will lead all to reform and justice... they're all ruses, in a world intrinsically designed to betray us. The police director spouts his ethos about "all men" and only in the final moments does the Inspector, brightly-lit but gradually fading in spirited disposition, walk against the backdrop of pitch black darkness. The contrast in colors makes him seem on the verge of being swallowed into an abyss, his face uneasy as he is beginning to entertain this sober outlook that challenges all his ideological safeguards that hold his fragile identity in check. Without it, all he has is his oft-neglected cats.

So is the yellow emphasized during moments and on characters who are trying to usurp or mimic God or their projected perspective of the cosmos' nature? Bring the sun into the clubs, into the homes of our brave civil servants, wear the color beaming from their faces to convince themselves and the world of their good-naturedness and deserved positions, as an unconscious plea to God, to define them as those this world should not betray, pathetically unaware that they are not exempt. If so, the new color timing redefines and potentially introduces themes I missed under the old palette that treated everyone with equitable forced cooling. That rendition repeatedly reminded us that they are all prisoners to a world of betrayal, with only the behaviors of the criminals shining through implicit action rather than visual aids, to liberate themselves momentarily from this prison with untethered gestures of individualized agency. Bourvil was uninteresting and aloof, and the film treated him cooly, as a man lost trying to fight against an atmosphere so clearly disinterested in his moral terms. What this new coloring offers is a chance to engage with Bourvil as he sees himself, and with the spaces as he and his kind, and even the criminals trying to coexist in a world of rules, choose to see them. The delusions elide into reality, and vice versa, until the very final shot that abruptly ends as the empty blackness threatens to vacuum Bourvil's soul, or worse, forces him to consider that his soul doesn't matter much after all.

[movielocke]

Here's a timely article that popped up in my feed yesterday that illustrates a handful of the many failure points that exist in reproducing color accurately within professional workflows, and doesn't even touch the professional-->to-->consumer workflows which is obviously even more fraught and more complex.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/under ... anagement/