denti alligator wrote:At 40 minutes before midnight, New York time, this list is looking VERY interesting, indeed.
Some stats (not likely to change, as I don't expect more votes, though I'll hold off until tomorrow to reveal the final list):
- 12 lists submitted (my own included)
- 226 different films voted for
- 107 received votes from at least two people
- 32 films from voters' top 15 did NOT make the final list
- only 1 film ranked by a voter #1 did NOT make the final list
Strike that! A new submission has made the final list even more delicious! (Though it has sadly knocked some obscure gems from the top 100, including Lubitsch's The Doll )
New stats (final list coming soon):
- 13 lists submitted (my own included)
- 235 different films voted for
- 117 received votes from at least two people
- 28 films from voters' top 15 did NOT make the final list
- only 1 film ranked by a voter #1 did NOT make the final list
Last edited by denti alligator on Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The top 3 were there from the beginning. For a while it was looking like Sunrise and Man with a Movie Camera were vying for the top spot, but Sunrise won out and was almost taken over by Joan at the last minute. (Sounds like a race -- well, it was for me.)
The General was always no. 4, no matter how many people ranked it in their top 5. Sunrise, Joan, and Man with a Movie Camera were so far ahead and the rest of the films so far behind that nothing could change this.
So we have our holy trinity and the, er, joker at court ... or something like that.
Most surprising omissions: Eisenstein's The General Line (only got one vote, though a very high one) and more Pudovkin (and L'inhumaine ).
Thanks to all who voted. Please defend your darlings in the appropriate thread. 1930s lists will be due end of September. (End of August is impossible for me, so you'll have an extra month to watch all those forgotten gems.)
jorencain wrote:Can someone tell me why "Sunrise" is THAT good? Number 1?
Have you seen it?
bufordsharkley wrote:That shouldn't be a question. At all.
Agreed; I find it almost offensive that it's only tied for first. Joan isn't even in the same league as Sunrise.
Well it would've been number one: Joan was trailing by 50 points, but the last list I received ranked Joan #1 and had no sign of Sunrise (in fact it was the only list without Sunrise ).
jorencain wrote:Can someone tell me why "Sunrise" is THAT good? Number 1?
Have you seen it?
Yeah, I've seen it. I certainly haven't seen a whole lot of silent films, but "Passion of Joan of Arc" is far and away better film, for me at least. I enjoyed "Sunrise" alright, and I obviously need to watch it again, but I sincerely want to know what sets it apart for so many people. I don't know if I should put this question here or in some other thread, but there it is.
I was surprised that Lady Windermere's Fan ranked so low--my impression is that it was a big favorite on this board. I had it in my top ten.
My two biggest disappointments were Storm Over Asia and Beyond the Rocks--did anyone else vote for them? Maybe I rated them a bit high. I'll be interested in the Defend Your Darlings thread comments.
On the other hand, I love the fact that Manhatta made it (barely) and I guess I can be satisfied that Les Vampires cracked the top 20 (it was number 4 for me, but I got hooked on it probably beyond reason).
And I had The Passion of Joan of Arc at number 1 (though I didn't submit my list at the end!). I've never quite been the same since I saw that film for the first time. It didn't just change the way I thought about silent film--it changed the way I thought about film, about history, about spirituality. Not a comment on Murnau whatsoever (though I did have The Last Laugh above Sunrise--a kind of heresy I guess).
A solid list. It'll take me some time to digest it, but I don't see a lot of surprises so far.
When Denti told me about the 'holy trinity' (in commiseration for my number 1, The General, lagging behind) I assumed it would be Joan, Sunrise and Potemkin, so I was very pleased - and slightly surprised - to see Vertov beat out Eisenstein.
Mildly disappointed to see that the extraordinary dope-fiend comedy Mystery of the Leaping Fish didn't squeak in, since I know at least two of us voted for it.
I've got plenty of darlings to defend, so I'll see you over there.
Oh, and thanks to Denti for his smooth management of this!
zedz wrote:so I was very pleased - and slightly surprised - to see Vertov beat out Eisenstein.
Mildly disappointed to see that the extraordinary dope-fiend comedy Mystery of the Leaping Fish didn't squeak in, since I know at least two of us voted for it.!
Mystery of the Leaping Fish almost made it. Final rank: 103.
And to think Vertov could've even beat out Joan and Sunrise...
I, too, am pleased with the list. I'm happy all three available Feuillade serials made the list (and even I--big Feuillade fan--didn't vote for Judex). There's more diversity than on the first list. Pretty nice. If you don't know the silent era all too well, this is a good place to start. Go backwards from 100...
jorencain wrote:Can someone tell me why "Sunrise" is THAT good? Number 1?
Have you seen it?
Yeah, I've seen it. I certainly haven't seen a whole lot of silent films, but "Passion of Joan of Arc" is far and away better film, for me at least. I enjoyed "Sunrise" alright, and I obviously need to watch it again, but I sincerely want to know what sets it apart for so many people. I don't know if I should put this question here or in some other thread, but there it is.
Ahh, nevermind. I'll just watch it again; I'm reading the MoC booklet now. I'm sure I'll see the light the second time around. And I do realize that I'm just having a conversation with myself. I'm stopping now, though.
Well, one: Kinugasa's a Page of Madness is #66 (down from #43 from the previous list, which I didn't contribute to.)
Since both lists are about 1/3 made up of titles I haven't seen yet, I don't feel qualified to really compare them, other than to be happy that my votes put the Kid Brother, the Impossible Voyage, the Scarlet Letter, Street Angel and There It Is over the threshold (to the detriment of Mystery of the Leaping Fish fans; I'll be seeking that one out for sure). But I do find the mathematical tie for top slot very satisfying (both films were in my top ten). Both lists are good, but they also both omit excellent titles the other list contains.
I'm very glad to see lots of shorts on the new list (though I miss representation of actualities; there were three Lumiere films on the previous one, and I would have ranked the one I voted for higher if I hadn't thought it a shoo-in) and I hope people continue to vote for them in the next decade polls (if this forum still exists). I know I'll be putting a generous helping of Fleischer Bros. cartoons on my submission, for example. If they're not crowded out by all the pre-code and Naruse films I've seen since the last time around, that is.
denti alligator wrote:I, too, am pleased with the list. I'm happy all three available Feuillade serials made the list (and even I--big Feuillade fan--didn't vote for Judex). There's more diversity than on the first list. Pretty nice. If you don't know the silent era all too well, this is a good place to start. Go backwards from 100...
This is a great list! I know it would be a tall order, but it would be great to have this list "DVD annotated." There are clearly some forum members, who are very passionate about the silent era, and have a great overview of what is out on DVD internationally. Looking at this list really makes me want to go out and view many of these films, and it would be a great help to be able to refer back to a list like this with indications of which DVD editions are the better ones to go with.
Scharphedin2 wrote:This is a great list! I know it would be a tall order, but it would be great to have this list "DVD annotated." There are clearly some forum members, who are very passionate about the silent era, and have a great overview of what is out on DVD internationally. Looking at this list really makes me want to go out and view many of these films, and it would be a great help to be able to refer back to a list like this with indications of which DVD editions are the better ones to go with.
I'll work on this. Gimme a day or two.
EDIT: see below.
I've just done a quick run-through. Can others make suggestions (maybe via PM so as not to clutter this thread) on the blanks. Thanks.
Last edited by denti alligator on Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. Sunrise (Murnau, 1927) - Masters of Cinema
(tie) The Passion of Joan of Arc (Dreyer, 1928) Criterion
3. Man with a Movie Camera (Vertov, 1929) Image (or Arte Stummfilmedition (I've ordered this, so I'll report back on it))
4. The General (Keaton, 1927) - the superb MK2 (also available Region 4, AV Channel, both PAL)
5. Nosferatu (Murnau, 1922) - Kino (lacks German intertitles - deluxe edition badly needed!)
6. Battleship Potemkin (Eisenstein, 1925) - until Criterion set ... ?
7. Faust (Murnau, 1926) - Masters of Cinema
8. The Last Laugh (Murnau, 1924) - Eureka (to be MoCized)
9. Un Chien Andalou (Bunuel & Dali, 1929) - BFI
10. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (Wiene, 1920) - Kino (lacks German intertitles - deluxe edition badly needed!)
11. Metropolis (Lang, 1927) - Masters of Cinema or Transit
12. Intolerance (Griffith, 1916) - Kino...?
(tie) Safety Last! (Newmeyer & Taylor, 1923) - New Line (part of Harrold Lloyd Collection)
14. The Crowd (Vidor, 1928) - wait for Warner release
15. Greed (von Stroheim, 1924) - wait for Warner release
16. Sherlock, Jr. (Keaton, 1924) - MK2, R4 port pending
17. The Gold Rush (Chaplin, 1925) - Warner R2 or R4 PAL versions
18. Nanook of the North (Flaherty, 1922) - Criterion or wait for MoC release
19. Les Vampires (Feuillade, 1915-16) - Gaumont release (no English subs) or wait for Artificial Eye port of this
20. Blackmail (Hitchcock, 1929) 194 (94 not specified; 80 silent; 20 talkie) - ArtHaus R2 DVD has the best looking versions of both the silent and talkie film
21. Die Nibelungen (Lang, 1924) - wait for Masters of Cinema
22. Pandora's Box (Pabst, 1929) - wait for ... ?
23. Strike (Eisenstein, 1924) - until Criterion set ... Image
24. Menilmontant (Kirsanoff, 1925) - Kino Avant-Garde set
25. The Big Parade (Vidor, 1925) - wait for Warner release
(tie) Broken Blossoms (Griffith, 1918) - Kino
27. The Docks of New York (von Sternberg, 1928) - wait for ...?
28. Dr. Mabuse, the Gambler (Lang, 1922) - Eureka or Transit
29. La chute de la maison Usher (Epstein, 1928) - Image R1 is acceptable
30. The Kid (Chaplin, 1921) - Warner R2 PAL
31. Napoleon (Gance, 1927) - wait and wait and wait...
32. October (Eisenstein, 1927) - until Criterion set ... ?
33. Cabiria (Pastrone, 1914) - Kino is OK
34. Diary of a Lost Girl (Pabst, 1929) - Kino (lacks German intertitles) - there was an MoC edition rumoured (cross your fingers)
35. The Thief of Bagdad (Walsh, 1924) - Kino
36. The Birth of a Nation (Griffith, 1915) -
(tie) Foolish Wives (von Stroheim, 1922) - Kino
38. Arsenal (Dovzhenko, 1928) - R1 Blackhawk/Image is acceptable
39. Fantômas (Feuillade, 1913-1914) - Artificial Eye or Gaumont (no subs)
40. The Circus (Chaplin, 1928) - Warner R2 or R4 PAL
(tie) The Wind (Sjöstrom, 1928) - wait for Warner release
43. A Trip to the Moon (Méliès, 1902) - Kino and Image both have Méliès collections that include this film (which looks better?)
44. Steamboat Bill, Jr. (Reisner, 1928) - the superb MK2 or R4 AvChannel port
45. Michael (Dreyer, 1925) - Masters of Cinema
46. L'Etoile de mer (Ray, 1928) - Kino's Avant-Garde set
47. Applause (Mamoulian, 1929) - Kino
(tie) Queen Kelly (von Stroheim, 1929) - Kino
49. The Lodger (Hitchcock, 1927) - The Early Years box set on Concorde (Region 2) has by far the best-looking version of this
50. H2O (Steiner, 1929) - Kino's Avant-Garde set
51. Regen (Franken & Ivens, 1929) - Kino's Avant-Garde set
52. The Cameraman's Revenge (Starewicz, 1912) - wait for ...?
53. The Last of the Mohicans (Tourneur, 1920)
(tie) The Unknown (Browning, 1927)
55. After Death (Bauer, 1915) - either the R2 BFI or R1 Image Bauer disc
(identical image quality?)
56. Our Hospitality (Keaton & Blystone, 1923) - Mk2 box set only
57. Entr'acte (Clair, 1924) - on Criterion "A Nous la Liberte"
(tie) Spione (Lang, 1928) - Masters of Cinema
59. Häxan (Christensen, 1922) - Criterion
60. Ballet méchanique (Léger, 1924) - Unseen Cinema set
(tie) A Woman of Paris (Chaplin, 1923) - Warner R2 or R4 PAL
(tie) Der müde Tod (Destiny) (Lang, 1921) - Image just OK
63. The Parson's Widow (Dreyer, 1920) - Image is OK
64. Corner in Wheat (Griffith, 1909)
(tie) The Kid Brother (Wilde & Howe, 1927)
66. A Page of Madness (Kinugasa, 1926) - HELP!! we need this badly!
67. Berlin, Symphony of a Great City (Ruttmann, 1927) - Image (though heavily interlaced; needs better transfer/restoration)
68. One Week (Cline & Keaton, 1920) - forthcoming MoC box
69. Erotikon (Stiller, 1920) - Kino
70. The Cameraman (Sedgwick & Keaton, 1928) - Warner R1 (in The Keaton Collection set)
(tie) Cops (Keaton, 1922) - forthcoming MoC box
(tie) He Who Gets Slapped (Sjöstrom, 1924) - wait for Warner's second Lon Chaney collection
73. Lady Windermere's Fan (Lubitsch, 1925) - R1 boxset More Treasures from the American Film Archives
(tie) Phantom of the Opera (Julian, 1925)
75. The Scarlet Letter (Sjöstrom, 1926)
76. The Last Command (von Sternberg, 1928)
77. Orphans of the Storm (Griffith, 1921)
78. The Impossible Voyage (Méliès, 1904)
(tie) The Mysterious X (Christensen, 1914) - Danish Film Institute DVD on Christensen's work
80. La Glace à trois faces (Epstein, 1927) - Kino's Avant-Garde set
81. There It Is (Bowers, 1928) - Treasures from the American Film Archives box set
82. Mother (Pudovkin, 1926) - R1 Corinth/Image version is acceptable; image is quite strong, but 1960s Russian soundtrack is very scratchy
83. A Dog's Life (Chaplin, 1918) - Warner R2 (as part of ... collection)
(tie) Fall of the House of Usher (Watson & Webber, 1928) - Unseen Cinema & Americal Film Archives box (which is best?)
85. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Ingram, 1921) - wait for Warner R1; restored by Brownlow several years ago
(tie) The Freshman (Newmeyer & Taylor, 1925) - New Line (Harrold Llyod Collection) R1
87. Seven Chances (Keaton, 1925) - MK2 and R4 AVChannel PAL
(tie) Tartuffe (Murnau, 1926) - Masters of Cinema
89. Easy Street (Chaplin, 1917)
(tie) The Great Train Robbery (Porter, 1903)
91. Manhatta (Strand & Sheeler, 1921) Kino's Avant-Garde set
92. The Love Parade (Lubitsch, 1929) - was on the six title Lubitsch LD Universal box
(tie) Street Angel (Borzage, 1928) - ??
94. The Outlaw and His Wife (Sjöstrom, 1918) - ??
95. Musketeers of Pig Alley (Griffith, 1912)
96. The Phantom Carriage (Sjöstrom, 1921)
(tie) The Wedding March (von Stroheim, 1928)
98. The Iron Horse (Ford, 1924) - BFI (Has recently gone OOP, but is not worth paying big bucks for. Some reviewers have argued that BFI used an alternate print, though I don't know much about this)
99. The Golem (Wiegener, 1920) - Kino (no German intertitles) or Transit (with German intertitles)
100. Judex (Feuillade, 1916) - Flicker Alley (or wait for Gaumont restoration!)
(tie) Regeneration (Walsh, 1915) - Kino
Last edited by denti alligator on Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:21 am, edited 6 times in total.
someone asks and I don't have the answer, as I haven't made my way even into my Unseen Cinema box. Anyone?
This is more of a question, as I haven't seen either (although both are en route to me!), but a lot of the shorts on the Kino Avant-Garde set are also on Image's Unseen Cinema set. Is the Kino set better looking or is there some other reason that Unseen Cinema isn't listed? Just curious...
And thanks David, I added your suggestions.
So that French Keaton box is worth getting, eh?
(The Beaver claims only The General, College, Steamboat Bill, Jr. and Three Ages show marked improvement over Kino releases. Do others agree?
And do you think this is a bootleg version of the same thing?)
davidhare wrote:Denti some additions to the DVD list:
the General - the superb MK2 (also available Region 4, AV Channel, both PAL)
the Crowd (not yet Warner DVD but was released on a good LD set)
Sherlock Jnr. - again MK2, R4 port pending
the Gold Rush - Warner R2 or R4 PAL versions
Strike - the Kino is quite respectable, but...
le Chute de la Maison Usher - the Image R1 is acceptable
the Kid - Warner R2 PAL
Cabiria - the Kino is OK
Thief of Bagdad - the Kino is fine
the Circus - Warner R2 or R4 PAL
the Wind - was on the nice double LD with The Crowd, pending Warner
Steamboat Bill jnr. - the superb MK2 or R4 AvChannel port
After Death - either the R2 BFI or R1 Image Bauer disc
Our Hospitality - Mk2 box set only
A Woman of Paris - Warner R2 or R4 PAL
der Mude Tod - the Shpehard Image disc just OK
the Parson's Widow - the Image is OK
One Week - forthcoming MoC box
the Cameraman - Warner R1
Cops - Forthcoming MoC box
a Dog's Life - Warner R2
Fall of the House of Usher(Webber) - Kino avant-garde box
Seven Chances - MK2 and R4 AVChannel PAL
the Love Parade - was on the six title Lubitsch LD Universal box...
Two observations:
STRIKE: the Image disc is from a nearly flawless nitrate (Kino from what I know only have an old VHS of this, cannot attest to it though there is a copyright credit on the Image dvd copyrighting the contents to Kino-- is that what you mean Dave? In a sense you're right, if so, but just to let them know the disc & packaging are from Image). Gorgeous and nice Yuri Tsivian commentary.
WEBER USHER: that's from the Image UNSEEN CINEMA box, not th Kino EXPERIMENTAL CINEMA 2-discer.
38. Arsenal (Dovzhenko, 1928) - R1 Blackhawk/Image is acceptable, certainly far superior to the R1s of Dovzhenko's EARTH
67. Berlin, Symphony of a Great City (Ruttmann, 1927) - Image
* Caveat: Heavily interlaced; needs better transfer/restoration
73. Lady Windermere's Fan (Lubitsch, 1925) - R1 boxset More Treasures from the American Film Archives
75. The Scarlet Letter (Sjostrom, 1926) - wait for Warner R1, looked good on recent TCM airing excepting a few sequences from a much weaker print
82. Mother (Pudovkin, 1926) - R1 Corinth/Image version is acceptable; image is quite strong, but 1960s Russian soundtrack is very scratchy
85. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Ingram, 1921) - wait for Warner R1; restored by Brownlow several years ago
98. The Iron Horse (Ford, 1924) - BFI
* Caveat: Has recently gone OOP, but is not worth paying big bucks for. Some reviewers have argued that BFI used an alternate print, though I don't know much about this.
scotty wrote:I was surprised that Lady Windermere's Fan ranked so low--my impression is that it was a big favorite on this board. I had it in my top ten.
I would have voted for it.
davidhare wrote:(note no Japanese titles.)
Most Japanese silent films are destroyed (especially the ones that date back to the 20s).
Actually, I abstained from voting (after trying to make a few lists) because so many of my favorites were Japanese 30s silents, and I just can't think about great silent films without considering them. Ozu, Shimizu, Naruse, Mizoguchi, Gosho, and even a few lesser knowns fill my mind when the discussion comes up. I kept thinking about these directors, and it made me just throw up my arms and quit writing.
Fantastic list though. I've still seen so little Borzage and Sjostrom, though, and this is a nice reminder to change that.
Steven H wrote:Actually, I abstained from voting (after trying to make a few lists) because so many of my favorites were Japanese 30s silents, and I just can't think about great silent films without considering them. Ozu, Shimizu, Naruse, Mizoguchi, Gosho, and even a few lesser knowns fill my mind when the discussion comes up. I kept thinking about these directors, and it made me just throw up my arms and quit writing.
Well I hope you decide to contribute to the 30s list then!
Steven H wrote:[Fantastic list though. I've still seen so little Borzage.
Me too. I have STREET ANGEL and, despite one of the most stunning openings viz art direction, camera movement, and majorly pull-no-punches story, after the first 10 minutes it settled into the tritest melodramatic lovestory. Not bad, but...
A couple of additions to Denti's list. And what a useful list! It would be good to do this with the other periods as we go through them, though the silent era probably has the most purchasing pitfalls in terms of multiple sources, editions, PAT to NTSC glitches etc.
No 81, There It Is is on one of the American Film Archives sets (the first one, I think). Frustratingly, it's not on the Image Charley Bowers compilation, even though it seems to be his masterpiece - WAY more Dada than Anemic Cinema or Entr'acte. The comp is still well worth getting if you find There It Is as flabbergasting as I do.
No 83, Fall of the House of Usher. I don't recall much difference in image quality between the two sets (though I've never done a back-to-back comparison), but when in doubt, the Archives sets present all of their films better than the Kino AG or Image Unseen: detailed liner notes and credits, often a commentary. Actually, all four sets are essential.
zedz wrote:And what a useful list! It would be good to do this with the other periods as we go through them
Wholeheartedly agree. The annotations transform the list into a valuable and unique resource. DVDbeaver's annotated Sight and Sound poll is great, but digging deeper into each individual decade will go a lot further to introduce people to somewhat less renown films and their best DVD presentations.
Thanks to all who've contributed, especially Denti.
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