DVDBeaver
- Cremildo
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:19 pm
- Location: Brazil
- Contact:
Re: DVDBeaver
Time for mea culpa.
Given the controversy on this thread, I decided to check that ProWhitesUnite Twitter page myself to see if it was, indeed, a "white supremacist" account. I did so because it's not uncommon for right-wing accounts that legitimately criticize illegal immigration and Islamic terrorism or that express patriotic values to be unfairly labeled as such, so any rational person should be somewhat skeptical, but the term is accurate this time. It is white supremacist. There was even an anti-Brazilian meme, ffs.
I still maintain that if Gary didn't espouse that rhetoric himself, there should be room for the benefit of the doubt, and that summarily judging people for who they follow on social media can be dangerous if not checked properly (which, ironically, is what I failed to do), but now I concede that the suspicions cannot be helped and that it's understandable that some people might feel uncomfortable.
Given the controversy on this thread, I decided to check that ProWhitesUnite Twitter page myself to see if it was, indeed, a "white supremacist" account. I did so because it's not uncommon for right-wing accounts that legitimately criticize illegal immigration and Islamic terrorism or that express patriotic values to be unfairly labeled as such, so any rational person should be somewhat skeptical, but the term is accurate this time. It is white supremacist. There was even an anti-Brazilian meme, ffs.
I still maintain that if Gary didn't espouse that rhetoric himself, there should be room for the benefit of the doubt, and that summarily judging people for who they follow on social media can be dangerous if not checked properly (which, ironically, is what I failed to do), but now I concede that the suspicions cannot be helped and that it's understandable that some people might feel uncomfortable.
- bearcuborg
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am
- Location: Philadelphia via Chicago
Re: DVDBeaver
You needed to check that twitter account? Really?
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: DVDBeaver
There's a weird thing about Twitter names and irony, particularly among left leaning users. I realize how absolutely insane that may sound but I've seen more than one handle use particularly derogatory names for gay people in it's name and turn out to be very much Pro-LGBT. I realize there's a concept of reclamation involved with certain words but occasionally you'll see one that makes your head spin. I wish to stress that this obviously doesn't apply all the time to every account but on the hellscape that is Twitter sometimes you very much DO need to check.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: DVDBeaver
I appreciate Cremildo’s post. This kind of thing is easier to defend when it’s treated in the abstract, but the reality of the account leaves no doubt to its intent
- Cremildo
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:19 pm
- Location: Brazil
- Contact:
Re: DVDBeaver
Yeah, I was unfamiliar with it, so I decided to check it. Sorry not sorry for not taking what some of you guys write as gospel.
- jindianajonz
- Jindiana Jonz Abrams
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:11 pm
Re: DVDBeaver
I know a number of conservatives who fancy themselves pro-white without being anti-minority. They claim to celebrate white western culture in a way that doesn't disparage others, and pretty much just want a equivalent to black history month for themselves. I'm not saying there isn't any subconscious racism to their beliefs, nor do I endorse their views, but pro-white stances don't always necessitate pitchforks and explicit hate.
- Drucker
- Your Future our Drucker
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am
Re: DVDBeaver
Counterpoint: whiteness is invented, evolving, and only exists in contrast to undesirables. It is inherently white supremacist.jindianajonz wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:30 pmI know a number of conservatives who fancy themselves pro-white without being anti-minority. They claim to celebrate white western culture in a way that doesn't disparage others, and pretty much just want a equivalent to black history month for themselves. I'm not saying there isn't any subconscious racism to their beliefs, nor do I endorse their views, but pro-white stances don't always necessitate pitchforks and explicit hate.
- furbicide
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:52 am
Re: DVDBeaver
I think we can get a little reductive with this stuff – like, I think we all understand on an intuitive level that identification is not solely a response to oppression (even if oppression is so often a powerful motivator for, say, in-group allegiance and solidarity), but rather something that emerges at least partially from deeper human drives. Feeling pride in gayness or blackness or femaleness is not just an act of resistance, and those feelings would surely not just suddenly disintegrate in a post-racist/sexist/homophobic world. What they’re really about at their core is how we construct our sense of self.
I’m not saying there aren’t fundamental differences between “pride” in dominant identity and pride in subjugated identity, and there’s absolutely no question that “white pride” serves little other function than to racialise outgroups. But where I think relatively mainstream conservatives can get dragged into some “white pride” discourse is through a defensive reaction to white guilt. That is to say, feeling a sense of specialness about possessing a hegemonic ethnicity is undeniably sinister, but pushing back against an (imaginary or otherwise) obligation to feel ashamed about that ethnicity is somewhat less psychologically abnormal, and probably carries a much broader appeal than many of us would like to admit.
All of this is a roundabout way of saying that there’s some truth to what jindianajonz says, and that we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist. That may seem to still be way too generous to Tooze given the actual virulent racism of the account in question and the possibility that his politics actually are that far-right, but I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as – it’s about the general importance of not assuming the worst of our fellow human beings, and about understanding that a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
I’m not saying there aren’t fundamental differences between “pride” in dominant identity and pride in subjugated identity, and there’s absolutely no question that “white pride” serves little other function than to racialise outgroups. But where I think relatively mainstream conservatives can get dragged into some “white pride” discourse is through a defensive reaction to white guilt. That is to say, feeling a sense of specialness about possessing a hegemonic ethnicity is undeniably sinister, but pushing back against an (imaginary or otherwise) obligation to feel ashamed about that ethnicity is somewhat less psychologically abnormal, and probably carries a much broader appeal than many of us would like to admit.
All of this is a roundabout way of saying that there’s some truth to what jindianajonz says, and that we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist. That may seem to still be way too generous to Tooze given the actual virulent racism of the account in question and the possibility that his politics actually are that far-right, but I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as – it’s about the general importance of not assuming the worst of our fellow human beings, and about understanding that a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM
Re: DVDBeaver
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?furbicide wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...
...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...
...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
- DeprongMori
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:59 am
- Location: San Francisco
Re: DVDBeaver
I figured out that Gary was something of a libertarian-leaning Ayn Rand acolyte some years ago, but as that didn’t seem to creep into his professional work, I paid it no mind and considered it none of my business
But now, despite Gary deleting the ProWhitesUnite follow, even his rest of his current constellation of other follows indicate a comfort level with White Nationalist rhetoric that troubles me. Especially in the present environment.
He still provides a valuable professional service which I use often and would like to continue to reward monetarily. Even though I haven’t found this rhetoric promoted in his reviews, I have deep qualms about supporting supporters of White Nationalism. I may draw the line at continuing to use his “Amazon associate” link for discs I buy based on his reviews, but I certainly won’t provide Patreon contributions at this point. In any case, I’ll continue to monitor the situation.
I really wish this wasn’t our present situation.
But now, despite Gary deleting the ProWhitesUnite follow, even his rest of his current constellation of other follows indicate a comfort level with White Nationalist rhetoric that troubles me. Especially in the present environment.
He still provides a valuable professional service which I use often and would like to continue to reward monetarily. Even though I haven’t found this rhetoric promoted in his reviews, I have deep qualms about supporting supporters of White Nationalism. I may draw the line at continuing to use his “Amazon associate” link for discs I buy based on his reviews, but I certainly won’t provide Patreon contributions at this point. In any case, I’ll continue to monitor the situation.
I really wish this wasn’t our present situation.
- furbicide
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:52 am
Re: DVDBeaver
Well, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);DarkImbecile wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 amWho specifically here do you feel is doing these things?furbicide wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...
...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...
...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and
3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.
Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.
- Magic Hate Ball
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:15 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA
Re: DVDBeaver
I don't think it's particularly crazy to say that I do not wish to patronize a service run by someone like that. These are people causing harm to many of my friends and relatives, not to mention myself. I'm not sure what suggesting that his business is "faultless apart from its association with him" is meant to achieve - if I found out my favorite pizza shop owner was a subscriber to Trump Hat Magazine and The White Power Gazette I'd immediately find somewhere else to eat pizza.
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- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
Re: DVDBeaver
Can’t these guys only be edge-enhancement-nazis?!
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- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
Re: DVDBeaver
But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM
Re: DVDBeaver
I don't want to speak for anyone else's opinion on this issue, but to me the quotes I listed do seem like hyperbolic oversimplifications of what people have actually said here. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone insisted that Tooze is without a doubt a virulent racist, or that he's indefensible, or that anyone not willing to "throw someone in the trash" is an enabler or apologist. Most of the users with the harshest responses to that account and the implications of following it nevertheless acknowledged that they'd continue to patronize the man's site, and pretty much everyone has offered nuanced responses regardless of where they land on how to engage (or not) with Tooze going forward, so your admonition that people need slow down and rationally consider this issue seems to be misplaced.furbicide wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:51 pmWell, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);DarkImbecile wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 amWho specifically here do you feel is doing these things?furbicide wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...
...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...
...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and
3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.
Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: DVDBeaver
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.JabbaTheSlut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pmBut seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
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- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
Re: DVDBeaver
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.swo17 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pmOr I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.JabbaTheSlut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pmBut seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM
Re: DVDBeaver
The timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.
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- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
Re: DVDBeaver
I admire your strength to keep up a humanistic attitude towards white nationalists, but c’mon, nazis, they spit on tolerance and humanity.DarkImbecile wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 pmThe timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: DVDBeaver
And what's wrong with white nationalists--that they consider some people to be undeserving of dignity and think the world would be better off without them?
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM
Re: DVDBeaver
... and that’s enough of this thread for me.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: DVDBeaver
Actually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.JabbaTheSlut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:24 pmI doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.swo17 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pmOr I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.JabbaTheSlut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pmBut seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
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- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
Re: DVDBeaver
Could be great, but to organise the whole nazi family in this kind of treatment is pretty hard. Society has to teach them that their violent, hate filled world view is not accepted. Of course these white supremacist’s racist sentiments spur out of unemployment, shortcomings of social care etc. The society is ill, the nazis are a symptom, not the reason.knives wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:08 pmActually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.JabbaTheSlut wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:24 pmI doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: DVDBeaver
CliffsNotes summary of this thread