The Lists Project

[domino harvey]

I see where you're coming from, but the Youth list was precisely one I thought of that would benefit from a larger potential submission (25 submitted titles per member / 50 overall on list) and I think the wide swath is exactly what we want-- I don't think anyone would submit a list of 25 teen-based animes or something. The general metric for that list would be, does the film in fact focus primarily on the lives and actions of young people 18 and under? So, is Super 8 eligible? Yes, the children are the primary protagonists. Jurassic Park? No, the children while prominent are not the primary focus. I'd probably end up being judge on this kind of thing if necessary, which would be a better system than an "approved" list

[Feego]

I think the Youth project sounds great, and in fact I would suggest it might benefit from being a full-fledged Top 100 list rather than a mini one. There's so much potential here, as it encompasses a variety of genres, countries, and themes, which alone could help it sustain long-term discussion. It's also a more approachable topic than the recent Films of Faith discussion, so I think there might be more eager participation.

[domino harvey]

I'm certainly open to it being a full project if others are interested-- I'm pretty sure I could easily make a personal list five times longer than a top 50 all by myself!

[zedz]

Some potential mini-genre lists I've been toying with, if we decide to go with that idea. Some of these would lend themselves to longer submissions/coverage time (10 submitted films? 15? 25?) than others:

Biopic
Conspiracies
Medical (doctors, nurses, pioneers, &c)
Pre-Code Hollywood
Screwball Comedies
Sexuality
Sports
Youth (films primarily focused on children under 18)

I love the idea of Conspiracies, but I fear it could be too fuzzy for a short, sharp list (e.g. there's a massive number of documentaries that would arguably qualify). Sexuality is similarly wide open and feels like a 'big' list project to me, but you could focus in on Queer Film, for instance.

I'd also like to suggest some 'localized' list projects, such as French New Wave (or Czech, for that matter) or New German Cinema.

[YnEoS]

If we're just informally expressing interest in what projects we'd participate in, for whatever future selection process there is.

For the themes/categories I'd be most interested in the youth films, and I could probably put together a pretty eclectic list of 50 films right now. I also have seen very little of, but would try and participate in a pre-code or screwball comedies list.

For countries/country based movements, I've been doing a lot of reading and viewing recently related to Young & New German cinema, and all French cinema up through to the New Wave, so I guarantee I'd participate a lot in those.

[sinemadelisikiz]

I agree that youth films should be a full-fledged list, and I was hoping it would be at some point, as it's a really rich area.
Personally I would go for pre-code films as a mini-list just because I have a huge backlog that I'd love an excuse to get through, but screwball sounds like it would be the most fun honestly.

Also, I don't know if anyone has ever suggested it, but I think it would be interesting to do a project eventually for folk tales (such as fairy tales, myths etc.). This occurred to me when watching films for the faith and spirituality list as there was a lot of overlap, and I think it could be appealing. Maybe down the road. I mean, we haven't even done SciFi yet.

[knives]

Speaking of obvious ones we really should tackle romance (or at least romantic comedy) sometime. There's a lot of awful there, but that makes discussing the good all the more fun.

[domino harvey]

Okay, after thinking about this too much:

After Noir, we do one month-long mini-list, then a full Youth List, then another mini-list, then Westerns redux (as scheduled). Afterwards, I will gauge what changes if any need to be made, including the possibility of indefinitely pausing Genre Lists, by noting participation and enthusiasm levels.

Re: Mini-lists: I will compile the most promising mini-list suggestions and randomly choose one for our first mini-list. If you have thought of some potential mini-list ideas, please share them in this thread or via PM. I will announce our first mini-list within the month, so people can start to plan ahead if they so desire (it will begin in November). Once a mini-list has been selected, I will create a locked thread with concise information on what films are eligible for voting. Metrics might be based on any number of factors, including thematic elements, country of origin, release date, &c, and will vary from list to list depending on the sub-genre chosen. These Miini-lists and Genre Lists will all be timed to not conflict with the start/stop times of the Decades list.

EDIT: I updated the FAQ if you're trying to figure out what this schedule looks like

For the mini-lists, instead of varying submission lengths, I've arrived on this solution:
All mini-lists will be a Top 25 compiling, with a minimum of ten submissions from each participating member. However, users may submit up to fifteen submissions on their list (or any number between 10-15). This ensures those who want to practice an ultra-condensed exercise may do so, or those with less full breadth in the subject, or those who feel they can only arrive on a solid ten titles worthy of being counted, may still participate, while leaving an additional couple of slots open to more unconventional titles that always seem to fall just below our personal top tier for those users with a broader or more wide-reaching grasp/interest in the topic. Basically, this is a bit of insurance to avoid having all of our lists be filled only with the usual suspects while still limiting individual submissions to a manageable minimum of titles.

[domino harvey]

Post info moved here

[knives]

How are defining feature length? For example would a television film or miniseries be eligible?

[domino harvey]

How are defining feature length? For example would a television film or miniseries be eligible?

I'd go with the Academy's definition, which is any film over 45 minutes counts as a feature (including miniseries or made for TV films). But a common sense approach is certainly in order if some great director made an obscure TV movie no one's seen before making a theatrical feature-length film widely thought to be a masterpiece. I'm assuming there's a specific example you're thinking of?

[knives]

The example I was thinking of was a mismemory (Iceman Cometh was apparently made after 12 Angry Men), but I am sure there are other examples and certainly it changes eligibility on a few films like Danny Boyle whose first film filling those parameters is less likely to get votes then Shallow Grave if just due to availability.

[YnEoS]

Good possibilities, but with reservations Namely, for all of these, would a Top 25 look much different than a list of eligible films for said list?
New German Cinema

Thomas Elsaesser's New German Cinema A History has a list of 436 films he considers part of the New German Cinema. This includes 32 short films (45 minutes or under) and 12 multi-part/TV mini-series. Though I don't know what the DVD availability of all these is like.


(Didn't double check these numbers, so they may off by a bit)

[domino harvey]

Thank you for that info, I have gladly moved it to the other category

[zedz]

Good possibilities, but with reservations Namely, for all of these, would a Top 25 look much different than a list of eligible films for said list?

Czech New Wave

I think you're underestimating the richness of this movement. Just counting significant films made by ten major directors from the New Wave (Chytilova, Forman, Herz, Jakubisko, Jires, Menzel, Nemec, Passer, Schorm, Uher) between the early 60s and early 70s I get more than 60 films, and that leaves out important titles like The Shop on Main Street, The Ear, Late August at the Hotel Ozone, 322, The Fifth Horseman Is Fear and Dragon's Return and the entire output of technically-not-New-Wave (but sure to be included in the vote) directors like Frantisek Vlacil and Jan Svankmajer. Almost all of these films are currently available on English-subtitled DVD.

That's probably not far short of the output and availability of the French New Wave or New German Cinema.

[knives]

Outside of the BFI, Crit, and not least of all Second Run releases how many of those are easily rather then readily available? It's something I'd rather sit on until a country list for anyway due to the numerous complexities of definition.

[mizo]

All mini-lists will be a Top 25 compiling, with a minimum of ten submissions from each participating member. However, users may submit up to fifteen submissions on their list (or any number between 10-15). This ensures those who want to practice an ultra-condensed exercise may do so, or those with less full breadth in the subject, or those who feel they can only arrive on a solid ten titles worthy of being counted, may still participate, while leaving an additional couple of slots open to more unconventional titles that always seem to fall just below our personal top tier for those users with a broader or more wide-reaching grasp/interest in the topic. Basically, this is a bit of insurance to avoid having all of our lists be filled only with the usual suspects while still limiting individual submissions to a manageable minimum of titles.

So, just to clarify, if someone were to submit a list of only ten, would their number one choice count for fewer points than that of someone who compiles a list of fifteen? Or would the former's tenth pick automatically get six points so the top picks even out?

[domino harvey]

Great question. No matter how many films are on your list, your number one pick would be worth fifteen points, your number ten six points, all the way down to your number fifteen, if applicable, getting one point.

[swo17]

This is possibly not a great question: What if someone thinks they are well versed enough in a genre to include 15 movies on their list but you think their 11-15 choices are stupid?

[domino harvey]

How would that be any different than the terrible selections you all keep submitting to me for the other lists?!?!

For the record, to those new to our strange ways and jokes, all list submissions are welcomed from all members (including lurkers) -- the whole idea here is to jump start participation!

[sinemadelisikiz]

Outside of the BFI, Crit, and not least of all Second Run releases how many of those are easily rather then readily available?

A lot of Czech and Slovak discs fill in the gaps and luckily the majority are English-subtitled. The Czech DVD thread is a great resource on what's available, but it's not necessarily focused on the New Wave. The Slovak Film Institute has released some titles of interest too, which can be purchased from places like dvdbest or gorilla.sk. There are still a few prominent films that have never been released on disc though (like Jires' The Cry) or have been released but without English subtitles (Case for a Rookie Hangman). Focusing on the Czechoslovak New Wave would certainly suit my own interests, but I'd bow to majority rule on this one if the idea is to drum up interest.

Also, I mostly suggested folk tales because I think there are a lot of little gems out there, and I know there are even more I know nothing about. These stories tend to be public domain so everyone uses them, from Disney exploiting European fairy tales in a lot of their product to Grimm reinterpretions done for horror films or even something like Freeway which uses Little Red Riding Hood as a framework. And that's without including tales from Africa, Asia, etc. Again, I think there's probably some overlap between folktales and the previous faith list, so prob not anytime soon.

[domino harvey]

I've looked into it and have moved Czechoslovak New Wave to the list of solid possibilities

[zedz]

Outside of the BFI, Crit, and not least of all Second Run releases how many of those are easily rather then readily available? It's something I'd rather sit on until a country list for anyway due to the numerous complexities of definition.

A Czech / Slovak country list would be terrific, and no doubt be extremely heavily weighted towards the New Wave.

'Outside of Second Run' is a pretty unfair constraint, since they've released so many of the films in question - by my rough count 16 canonical New Wave films and another seven fellow travellers from the same period (the Vlacils, Romeo, Juliet and Darkness etc.) There are six or seven additional Czech New Wave films released by Criterion and not by Second Run and a similar number by Facets. If you add in BFI's Svankmajers, that's over 50 currently in-print films from US and UK labels. Then, if you venture a little outside your comfort zone into the dirt cheap Slovensky Film series, you can pick up another dozen or more crucial New Wave films for about the price of a single Criterion.

The Czech New Wave has actually been surprisingly well-served on English-friendly home video compared to many other concurrent movements.

[domino harvey]

Just for the record, home video availability will never be a metric for whether a potential list is viable or not, simply if there are considerably more films eligible and worthy of compilation outside of the twenty five top ranking titles we'll be producing. I recognize a lack of subtitled DVDs available on the America and British market is a valid concern, but given how many of us have access to back channels and fan-subbed saviors anyways, it hardly seems worth worrying over.

[knives]

Outside of the BFI, Crit, and not least of all Second Run releases how many of those are easily rather then readily available? It's something I'd rather sit on until a country list for anyway due to the numerous complexities of definition.

A Czech / Slovak country list would be terrific, and no doubt be extremely heavily weighted towards the New Wave.

'Outside of Second Run' is a pretty unfair constraint, since they've released so many of the films in question - by my rough count 16 canonical New Wave films and another seven fellow travellers from the same period (the Vlacils, Romeo, Juliet and Darkness etc.) There are six or seven additional Czech New Wave films released by Criterion and not by Second Run and a similar number by Facets. If you add in BFI's Svankmajers, that's over 50 currently in-print films from US and UK labels. Then, if you venture a little outside your comfort zone into the dirt cheap Slovensky Film series, you can pick up another dozen or more crucial New Wave films for about the price of a single Criterion.

The Czech New Wave has actually been surprisingly well-served on English-friendly home video compared to many other concurrent movements.

Which is all why I said easily rather then readily. Though of course Dom just pointed out this is entirely a moot point.