Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

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kekid · #51 Post by **kekid** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:12 pm

The BFI blu ray box is listed to contain 7 discs. The Shout! Factory blu ray set on Amazon.com lists 13 discs. The description does not say it is dual-format. Can someone please explain the significant difference in number of discs on two sets? Thank you.

WorstFella · #52 Post by **WorstFella** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:55 pm

The BFI set simply has more content per disc. The sets are not dual format.

bugsy_pal · #53 Post by **bugsy_pal** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:22 am

WorstFella wrote:The BFI set simply has more content per disc. The sets are not dual format.

I wonder if this will have a significant effect on bitrates on the BFI discs. Not that it necessarily means lesser picture quality.. I guess we'll see in due course.

MichaelB · #54 Post by **MichaelB** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:48 am

David Mackenzie is encoding the BFI discs, and there are few finer compressionists in the business.

matrixschmatrix · #55 Post by **matrixschmatrix** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:08 am

Has there been any indication whether the BFI has a second set on deck at any point? It specifically cuts off in the late 80s, right?

EddieLarkin · #56 Post by **EddieLarkin** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:21 am

MichaelB wrote:David Mackenzie is encoding the BFI discs, and there are few finer compressionists in the business.

And not only that, he's already stated elsewhere that the 7 discs available to him will be enough to get the job done with optimum quality. I have every confidence that the BFI films will look great, and wouldn't be at all surprised if they turn out to look a tad better than the Shout! discs, despite the vast amount of extra space they'll have available to them.

Orlac · #57 Post by **Orlac** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:04 am

A fair few Shout discs get criticized for poor compression.

kekid · #58 Post by **kekid** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:38 pm

It is clear that members of this forum have personal loyalties. We are pre-judging whether one or the other version will have better looks. I for one would like to wait and see reviews of actual products.
What is beyond guesswork is what each set includes. Each set has some unique features, and individuals can form opinions on which of these are most important to them. I personally prefer the Shout! Factory contents, but can understand others having different view.
We could do a lot worse than having two wonderful boxes of Herzog to choose from.

Drucker · #59 Post by **Drucker** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:55 pm

Your point is partly fair, but knowing the technical specs going into the making of a release can have an impact. David M is a respected board member who has professional relationships with some of the posters here who can vouch for his work.

Twilight Time and Arrow both released The Fury by De Palma. Imagine they were planned on being released simultaneously, but we knew that James White would be restoring one, but not the other. Knowing his reputation, it would have nothing to do with personal loyalties to be more excited for the one he's producing.

kekid · #60 Post by **kekid** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:39 pm

Drucker wrote:Your point is partly fair, but knowing the technical specs going into the making of a release can have an impact. David M is a respected board member who has professional relationships with some of the posters here who can vouch for his work.

Twilight Time and Arrow both released The Fury by De Palma. Imagine they were planned on being released simultaneously, but we knew that James White would be restoring one, but not the other. Knowing his reputation, it would have nothing to do with personal loyalties to be more excited for the one he's producing.

I do not question David M's credentials. Let me just give an example to illustrate my position. I own MoC's version of Touch of Evil. I think it is wonderful. Recently another version was released in region A, which is judged to be equally good, if not slightly better. Based on my experience with them, I think MoC have impeccable credentials. That does not mean that someone else cannot equal or better them on an individual release. Similarly, I have no doubt that David will do an excellent job. But given Herzog's direct involvement and Shout! Factory's obvious commitment to this project, I think it would be premature to draw conclusions on relative superiority.

MichaelB · #61 Post by **MichaelB** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:03 pm

You're not comparing like with like. Obviously it's very very likely that a more recent release will be superior to an older one, however acclaimed the latter might have been at the time. But in this case we're talking about near-simultaneous releases that are almost certainly sourced from exactly the same HD masters.

In which case it's entirely fair to speculate on plausible outcomes based on the track records of the people involved. Not least because that's all we've got to go on right now.

kekid · #62 Post by **kekid** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:13 pm

MichaelB wrote:You're not comparing like with like. Obviously it's very very likely that a more recent release will be superior to an older one, however acclaimed the latter might have been at the time. But in this case we're talking about near-simultaneous releases that are almost certainly sourced from exactly the same HD masters.

In which case it's entirely fair to speculate on plausible outcomes based on the track records of the people involved. Not least because that's all we've got to go on right now.

I agree with your last sentence. However, I do not see the usefulness of making any judgment right now. Consider the following course of action: (1) Lock in the preorder prices by ordering both sets (ideally this should have been done when the prices were at their lowest point). (2) Wait till Nosferatu and Aguirre individual releases come out, and look at a range of reviews on those. (3) Based on (2), finalize your decision.

The fact that two of the films are coming out before the box-sets makes it possible for the buyers to make informed decision. Individual buyer will interpret the reviews (and discussions on this forum and others) as they see fit. For me personally, the criteria will be as follows: If one of the boxes is judged to be significantly superior in quality, I will go for that. If they are about the same in quality, I will go for the one whose choices of films appeal to me more (in my case, Shout! Factory). What constitutes "significant differences in picture quality" is often personal (e.g. Red Desert Blu's by the BFI and Criterion). I will read the reviews, look at the screen caps (admitting all their imperfections - to use your language, that's all I have to go by, other than other people's personal opinions).

It is important to recognize that unlike many posters on this forum I am not a professional in this field; I am just an enthusiastic member of the audience. Technical nuances that matter to the professionals may not be critical to me, especially when weighing that difference relative to the contents.

Let the buyers make informed decision based on data, as they become available.

David M. · #63 Post by **David M.** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:09 am

I will read the reviews, look at the screen caps (admitting all their imperfections - to use your language, that's all I have to go by, other than other people's personal opinions).

What imperfections would those be?

Screen captures are a very good way to compare releases - provided they're properly taken (most of the big sites are getting it right now). Moreso than reviews, in fact, which ny nature describe with words what the release looks like (and often with no guarantee that the conclusions were drawn on calibrated equipment).

I'm quite flattered to read some of the posts here, and look forward to seeing the other version. Competition is a great thing

kekid · #64 Post by **kekid** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:16 pm

David M. wrote:
I will read the reviews, look at the screen caps (admitting all their imperfections - to use your language, that's all I have to go by, other than other people's personal opinions).
What imperfections would those be? Screen captures are a very good way to compare releases - provided they're properly taken (most of the big sites are getting it right now). Moreso than reviews, in fact, which ny nature describe with words what the release looks like (and often with no guarantee that the conclusions were drawn on calibrated equipment).

I'm quite flattered to read some of the posts here, and look forward to seeing the other version. Competition is a great thing

Thank you, David. I have no doubt that you will do an excellent job. We are privileged to have you working on this very important project.

Koukol · #65 Post by **Koukol** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:34 pm

I'll be thrilled if either release has those snowy scenes fixed from the German BD of NOSFERATU.

I've got the BFI on order.

RobertB · #66 Post by **RobertB** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:06 pm

Of course it's best to wait and see, if you want to make sure that you get the best edition. But we are like children on Christmas Eve. It is fun to speculate and wish fore a perfect release!

I don't usually pre order films, but in this case I pre ordered the BFI. Since I placed my order the price on Amazon has increased with £9, so I'm getting it cheap. I also wanted to show BFI (who have far from unlimited resources) that this is the sort of release I want them to do. I like having European releases if they are as good as the USA ones, so I can lend films to friends who aren't region free. And in this case I trust David M to make a good job on it, and I know that BFI will exchange discs if anything goes wrong with the first batch.

Edit added: I do of course hope that Shout Factory make a great box. And I would love them to do a separate disc with a couple of the films that are missing on the BFI set. I would definitively pick it up. It's the films that matter. Not who releases them.

EddieLarkin · #67 Post by **EddieLarkin** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:03 pm

A cap from Shout's Woyzeck disc. I suppose some context could explain it away, but er, yeah...

#68 Post by **mfunk9786** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:06 pm

Shout! doesn't have a tremendous history with Blu-ray transfers (just look at Audition, for one). I can't say I'm expecting much from this set in that department, despite having it pre-ordered since it'll likely be an improvement on the existing DVDs.

#69 Post by **zedz** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:31 am

EddieLarkin wrote:A cap from Shout's Woyzeck disc. I suppose some context could explain it away, but er, yeah...

Yikes! It looks like a photo of Klaus Kinski has been cut out by a careful six-year old and stuck on a location still from Aguirre.

criterion10 · #70 Post by **criterion10** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:41 am

Kinski's facial expression in that capture will also be the expression of most viewers as they see for the first time the video quality of the titles in the box set!

mteller · #71 Post by **mteller** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:22 pm

If you replace the number in the URL, you can also see shots from all the other films in the set too. Numbers go from 01 to 110.

MichaelB · #72 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:34 pm

mteller wrote:If you replace the number in the URL, you can also see shots from all the other films in the set too. Numbers go from 01 to 110.

...and a quick dip into them reveals that the still singled out above may be atypical. Many of the others are far sharper and show plenty of grain.

criterion10 · #73 Post by **criterion10** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:09 pm

I only went through these quickly, but they surprisingly look... pretty good. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert in this sort of field, so I'm probably not the best person to listen too.

Here's a cap from the Shout! Blu-Ray of Aguirre, and here's a similar one from the BFI Blu-Ray. Tough to compare since the shots are slightly different, though I think it's safe to say that the BFI is indeed better.

MichaelB · #74 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:15 pm

I suspect it's a case of same master, different compressionist.

WorstFella · #75 Post by **WorstFella** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:03 pm

mteller wrote:If you replace the number in the URL, you can also see shots from all the other films in the set too. Numbers go from 01 to 110.

Just looked through all these caps. The compression by-and-large looks awful, and in a very inconsistent way. The only Shout! encode I don't have significant problems with is Aguirre. What a disaster, especially for the Shout! exclusives.

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