Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[Moe Dickstein]

I've read that last sentence 3 times and can't understand it...

[EddieLarkin]

Twilight Time / SAE is a company that will sell their product at a greatly inflated price, but then offer to doctor their shipping labels so you don't have pay taxes on importing their product, (thus insuring the only money you spend ends up in their pocket)

You say this like it's some sort of advantage for SAE. They save you money, all of which stays in your pocket, not theirs.

[fdm]

Twilight Time / SAE is a company that will sell their product at a greatly inflated price, but then offer to doctor their shipping labels so you don't have pay taxes on importing their product, (thus insuring the only money you spend ends up in their pocket)

You say this like it's some sort of advantage for SAE. They save you money, all of which stays in your pocket, not theirs.

Besides that, Twilight Time and Screen Archives are two separate companies.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Twilight Time / SAE is a company that will sell their product at a greatly inflated price, but then offer to doctor their shipping labels so you don't have pay taxes on importing their product, (thus insuring the only money you spend ends up in their pocket)

You say this like it's some sort of advantage for SAE. They save you money, all of which stays in your pocket, not theirs.

Well I for one (in Europe) buy a shed load of CD soundtracks from SAE on which they mark down the declared value so it escapes what would otherwise be a very punitive import charge. Without this I would be forced to look elsewhere. So in that sense and I can hardly be alone on this they are benefiting from increased sales.

[EddieLarkin]

God forbid they benefit from increased sales by saving international customers shed loads of fees (again, none of which goes to them).

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

God forbid they benefit from increased sales by saving international customers shed loads of fees (again, none of which goes to them).

Why God Forbid.? if they didn't do what they do they wouldn't get the sales Is that not clear enough?

[EddieLarkin]

I'm not saying they do it out of the goodness of their heart, but they don't advertise or promote it. Anyone buying from SAE for the first time would expect fees, so clearly they still would get sales. Are we not in agreement that it is a good thing they do this?

[Gregory]

It's illegal and seems like a foolish thing to get a reputation for routinely doing as a company.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

It's illegal and seems like a foolish thing to get a reputation for routinely doing as a company.

Don't grass us up Greg, I need those Morricone reissues without paying through the nose. They're dear enough as it is.

[EddieLarkin]

It's illegal and seems like a foolish thing to get a reputation for routinely doing as a company.

I'm under the impression they've been doing it for decades, so I guess despite it being illegal the various border forces don't seem to care so much. Flicker Alley, Diabolik DVD and Mondo Vision all do it as well (in the latter case, they literally do advertise the fact on their site!).

[Gregory]

They do? I didn't think Mondo Vision even took orders on their site.

[EddieLarkin]

http://www.toufaan.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TMDaines]

Twilight Time / SAE is a company that will sell their product at a greatly inflated price, but then offer to doctor their shipping labels so you don't have pay taxes on importing their product, (thus insuring the only money you spend ends up in their pocket)

You say this like it's some sort of advantage for SAE. They save you money, all of which stays in your pocket, not theirs.

Of course it is an advantage for them. Otherwise their customers, in the UK for example, would have to factor in a likely 20% + £8 fee on their outlay on orders made at their site. They do it for the exact same reason Amazon's European stores don't charge VAT to non-EEA buyers. The VAT wouldn't need to be going to them either, but they save their customers money by reducing unnecessary fixed costs. The difference is one site's policy is legitimate practice; the other is illegal.

It's illegal and seems like a foolish thing to get a reputation for routinely doing as a company.

Don't grass us up Greg, I need those Morricone reissues without paying through the nose. They're dear enough as it is.

That was the point I was making. They're willing to bleed you dry but are then more than happy to cover their tracks to the authorities over the amount their charging. It's a complete hypocrisy. I hate the Royal Mail fee in the UK, and thankfully I've never had to pay it so far, but the hypocrisy of them enticing overseas customers by offsetting their overpriced products through customs tax dodging is ludicrous.

[swo17]

They're willing to bleed you dry but are then more than happy to cover their tracks to the authorities over the amount their charging. It's a complete hypocrisy.

Yes, they're lowering the stated value of their product on international orders out of fear that customs police are going to shut down their bleeding customers dry operation!

[TMDaines]

I'm sure you know what I meant!

[Gregory]

Some of the customs forms on packages I receive from UK sellers are kind of amusing. On one I looked at today, the "signature" is the name Fred Smith printed in a script font, and the description of the contents is "Media" with a declared value of GBP 1. Pretty brazen.
I've sold many items internationally as an Amazon seller and usually declare the value as the price the item sold for, although sometimes if someone bought an expensive OOP item, I've declared the regular selling price as the value (i.e., the retail price I paid for the item when I bought it, not the high OOP price). That seems fair to me, and I can live with being technically in violation of the WTO:

The WTO Valuation Agreement is formally known as the Agreement on Implementation of Article VII of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994. It replaced the GATT Valuation Code as a result of the Uruguay Round multilateral trade negotiations which created the WTO in 1994.

The Agreement provides a Customs valuation system that primarily bases the Customs value on the transaction value of the imported goods, which is the price actually paid or payable for the goods when sold for export to the country of importation, with certain adjustments.

If I were running a company I a company like SAE I think I'd try to run everything on the level down to the letter of the law. And if I were shipping a fairly large order overseas I think I'd want to insure the package, and so I would have to say what the actual value was, wouldn't I?

[EddieLarkin]

If you choose insured shipping with SAE, they do indeed declare the true value.

[Gregory]

I wonder what's to keep a dishonest buyer from placing a large order, not choosing insured shipping, and then demanding a refund or a chargeback claiming the order never arrived? I worry about that somewhat as an Amazon seller who ships internationally, and I can't get signature confirmation because USPS won't offer it internationally, though I haven't had to deal with any claims like that yet.

[TMDaines]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

[TMDaines]

If you choose insured shipping with SAE, they do indeed declare the true value.

Is that option anything other than a sucker's choice? They're liable for the package until it reaches the buyer according to US law, and to the law of most Western countries I imagine, regardless of any nonsense mumbo jumbo they may state.

[Gregory]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

Except that the US Postal Service doesn't offer insurance for First Class International packages, so I'd have to ship the item Priority Mail, which is often prohibitively expensive (e.g., I would get $15 shipping credit from Amazon but it may cost $25 or more for Global Priority). I believe they don't even offer insurance for Priority flat-rate envelopes and small boxes. I'd probably rather quit selling internationally than have to lose that much money on shipping. But I've probably shipped around 100 uninsured international orders by now and have had no problems with claims of lost packages, so it's worked out well so far.

[TMDaines]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

Except that the US Postal Service doesn't offer insurance for First Class International packages, so I'd have to ship the item Priority Mail, which is often prohibitively expensive (e.g., I would get $15 shipping credit from Amazon but it may cost $25 or more for Global Priority). I believe they don't even offer insurance for Priority flat-rate envelopes and small boxes. I'd probably rather quit selling internationally than have to lose that much money on shipping. But I've probably shipped around 100 uninsured international orders by now and have had no problems with claims of lost packages, so it's worked out well so far.

Wow! I'm quite shocked that that is the case. It makes our increasingly expensive options from the Royal Mail look like a luxury in comparison.

[dda1996a]

What's with TT over pricing their releases, having barely any extras, and always having ugly covers? (and what of their releases isn't part of the "limited edition series"?) even if they did release some of my most cherished films (purple rose of Cairo for example) I will manage without owning such an overpriced package if it means spending so much for just an HD upgrade

[Noiradelic]

What's with TT over pricing their releases, having barely any extras and always having ugly covers? (and what of their releases isn't part of the "limited edition series"?) even if they did release some of my most cherished films (purple rose of Cairo for example) I will manage without owning such an overpriced package if it means spending so much for just an HD upgrade

All Twilight Time releases are limited editions, usually licensed for 3 years; but after 3 years, if they've sold out fairly quickly, they try to relicense them.

I'm more anti-Twilight Time then pro, but there is some context to their business model. At the time they started in 2011, boutique labels other than Criterion and maybe a few others having big licensing deals with the major studios was just taking off. Nick Redman and his partner applied the limited-edition business model Fox used for for movie soundtrack CDs when Redman worked there to TT DVDs and Blu-rays, making them only available through Screen Archives Entertainment. So since they pay the licensing fees upfront, they started out as a very small operation and they don't sell through big retailers, the prices are expensive.

There are Twilight Time sales a couple of times a year -- they just had one -- where you can get the titles for $20. There are generally more extras now. If you really want Purple Rose of Cairo, I say treat yourself and just buy it during one of the sales -- unless you're region-free and prefer to wait and get the not-yet officially announced second Arrow Woody Allen box set. I own about a dozen TT's and have more or less decided not to buy any more unless they come out with what consider another absolute must-have -- there are only around six in their catalog so far I really feel that way about.

[Ribs]

TT are a godsend for putting out titles I really, honestly think would never have come out otherwise - Nicholas and Alexandra, Khartoum, etc. Not classics, but thanks to TT's weird business position of starting as a company based around musical scores they've done some really interesting releases that I don't think anyone else would have ever bothered with. They're expensive but a lot of times they really are properly niche titles.