403 Crí­a cuervos

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#76 Post by Mr Sausage »

Lemmy Caution wrote:Later we get a scene in the park where there are two Anna's and she imagines herself plunging to her death -- to join her parents I'd assume.
The interesting thing about this is that after a shot of Anna's double falling, the switch to what we assume is the falling Anna's POV does not include a falling camera. The perspective stays on more or less the same level, but dips a bit and moves side-to-side, like it's become unmoored without being subject to gravity. Is Anna imagining her spirit floating over her house, observing the grounds?

One of the strange things about the monologues of the older Anna is that they contradict things they shouldn't. Right after Anna retrieves the 'poison' for the first time, older Anna reveals she poisoned her father and goes on to analyse why that might've been. Of course it's subsequently revealed that the poison was merely baking soda, but older Anna seemed unaware of that. Was she somehow, improbably, still convinced she killed him, or was she talking so totally from the point of view of her childhood self that she didn't include that bit, or is this a purely functional omission (tho', in that case, why even have the monologue in the first place if it could only spoil things and therefore need to have omissions)?
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#77 Post by Lemmy Caution »

Mr Sausage wrote: The interesting thing about this is that after a shot of Anna's double falling, the switch to what we assume is the falling Anna's POV does not include a falling camera. The perspective stays on more or less the same level, but dips a bit and moves side-to-side, like it's become unmoored without being subject to gravity. Is Anna imagining her spirit floating over her house, observing the grounds?
It's an unexpected poetic moment.
Some images haunt Anna -- she has to rub her eyes to get rid of her double -- but her imagination also provides a degree of freedom and peace, as her falling double affords her a bird's eye view which becomes gentle and alluring. The swooping, hovering PoV also suggests that Anna has some agency and control over her imaginings. So that it is likely that she's willing her mother to appear, for comfort at times, while other more unpleasant memories intrude on her.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#78 Post by Lemmy Caution »

Is there any clue as to how old Anna is in the present when she addresses her monologues to the camera? I was wondering how far back from 1975 to place the childhood scenes?
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#79 Post by Mr Sausage »

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Mr Sausage wrote:The interesting thing about this is that after a shot of Anna's double falling, the switch to what we assume is the falling Anna's POV does not include a falling camera. The perspective stays on more or less the same level, but dips a bit and moves side-to-side, like it's become unmoored without being subject to gravity. Is Anna imagining her spirit floating over her house, observing the grounds?
It's an unexpected poetic moment.
Some images haunt Anna -- she has to rub her eyes to get rid of her double -- but her imagination also provides a degree of freedom and peace, as her falling double affords her a bird's eye view which becomes gentle and alluring. The swooping, hovering PoV also suggests that Anna has some agency and control over her imaginings. So that it is likely that she's willing her mother to appear, for comfort
The hovering POV didn't strike me as being under any particular control. Nor does her imagination seem to give her either freedom or peace, considering she mostly imagines either traumatic scenes (mother dying, parents arguing) or her mother telling her to go to bed. This is plainly not a Terry Gilliam film, with a high Romantic conception of the imagination, especially the child-like imagination. Anna's imagination never obscures or hides reality, nor provides a more vivid and free counterbalance to the drab awfulness of real life; there are very few moments where we're unsure what reality we're seeing. Anna's imaginings are a bit more subdued. Sometimes they provide a bit of comfort, as when she relives slightly more happy moments with her mother (vividly enough to believe they have a measure of reality, tho' never with any insistence), sometimes they show traumatic moments that she's still trying to understand, and sometimes the fading of a happy dream leaves her with a renewed sense of loss.

Anna does not have the vivid fantasy life of a prodigy; she has a regular child's imagination that's somewhat more vivid sometimes as a result of the emotional burdens that had been placed on her so early.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#80 Post by jindianajonz »

Dammit! I had 5 or 6 paragraphs typed up, but it got lost when the forum logged me out while I was typing....
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#81 Post by jindianajonz »

Lemmy Caution wrote: and really the Aunt is fairly reasonable and tries to be understanding, even if she doesn't seem terribly comfortable dealing with children. I think that has been my main take-away from this 3rd (partial) viewing -- the aunt is really a decent person, and the dual characterization of her is really well-modulated, allowing us to see how she appears to Anna and how she really is.
I felt the exact same way. I think the best example of this was the scene where the Aunt found the children playing with her makeup- Her cold strictness led me to believe she would be angry and punish the children, but instead she laughs it off. She is actually trying very hard with the girls, as you can see in her frustration after Ana points a gun at her (sidenote: was it loaded? I got the sense that the best friend opened it up and found a bullet inside, but the scene moves too quick to be sure).
Mr Sausage wrote:The interesting thing about this is that after a shot of Anna's double falling, the switch to what we assume is the falling Anna's POV does not include a falling camera. The perspective stays on more or less the same level, but dips a bit and moves side-to-side, like it's become unmoored without being subject to gravity. Is Anna imagining her spirit floating over her house, observing the grounds?
I had the exact same thought- I wasn't sure if she was supposed to be falling or flying. Could it have been a technical limitation that prevented a more traditional falling POV? How bulky were the cameras that Saura would have been using in Spain in the mid 70s?
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#82 Post by zedz »

jindianajonz wrote:Dammit! I had 5 or 6 paragraphs typed up, but it got lost when the forum logged me out while I was typing....
And here's the evidence!
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#83 Post by jindianajonz »

Quiet Zedz! Mr Sausage is going to flunk me!

(Incidentally, a teacher named Mr Sausage is a great premise for a porn)
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#84 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

zedz wrote:
jindianajonz wrote:Dammit! I had 5 or 6 paragraphs typed up, but it got lost when the forum logged me out while I was typing....
And here's the evidence!
Image
I had a similar reaction when I had to ring the Bowel Screening Centre to tell them my dog had eaten my smear test card. 4 days of contortion and sleight of hand in vain.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#85 Post by zedz »

jindianajonz wrote:
Mr Sausage wrote:The interesting thing about this is that after a shot of Anna's double falling, the switch to what we assume is the falling Anna's POV does not include a falling camera. The perspective stays on more or less the same level, but dips a bit and moves side-to-side, like it's become unmoored without being subject to gravity. Is Anna imagining her spirit floating over her house, observing the grounds?
I had the exact same thought- I wasn't sure if she was supposed to be falling or flying. Could it have been a technical limitation that prevented a more traditional falling POV? How bulky were the cameras that Saura would have been using in Spain in the mid 70s?
It's a poetic moment, which is probably justification enough, but the practical explanation is most likely that cameras are really expensive. Kubrick went through a number of (cheap) cameras to get the equivalent shot in A Clockwork Orange, but he had a huge budget at his disposal. Even if you did this with tracks, it's going to be risky. (Wojciech Wisniewski does a fantastic version of this move in Wanda Goscimska, Weaver, but I imagine his producer had the appropriate sedatives, or didn't find out about it until he saw the shot footage.)
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#86 Post by jindianajonz »

Alright, let's try this again...
Mr Sausage wrote:I've heard this is an allegory for Spain under Franco. I kind of saw where political elements could be explored, but I didn't actually see it form into an allegory. Could anyone explain how the movie functions as an allegory?
IMDB lists the film as being released in Spain in January 1976, while Franco died in November 1975 after a couples years ofvisible decline in power and health. I think it is fair to say that this was concieved and produced while Franco was on his deathbed. The fact that Saura begins the film with the death of the Francoist character implies that he is making this film with an eye to the future rather than the past.

As stated above, the father in the film is obviously a stand-in for the Francoist regime. Saura's family had sided with the communists during the Spanish civil war, and Saura was critical of the regime in his films- the booklet states that this is the first film that he was able to release completely under his control, since his rising international profile made the regime wary of attempting to censor his work. Throughout the film, the father appears to give the impression of a dignified figure, living in a rather impressive house and always seen in his clean pressed military uniform. This hides his true character, however, as a man who is never seen showing any interest in his children and who would both cheat on his wife and cuckhold his best friend at the same time. I think the inherent slam against the regime is fairly obvious.

On the other hand, the mother figure, who shares a passion for piano with Saura's own mother, would be a stand in for the communists. Both were removed from the picture long ago, and both left a void that allowed the "bad" authority figure to seize control. I use the word bad instead of evil because we never get a sense that the father is ill-intentioned in what he does; he is just ineffectual as a parent and succumbs quite easily to his vices. I think that if we see the two parents as the warring sides of the civil war, then each daughter can be seen as a different generation in Spain, with the eldest, Irene, being old enough to have been raised by both parents, Ana being raised as the mother was dying, and Maite being too young to remember the mother. I don't think Saura intended the daughters to be read this way, though, since Ana's two sisters are never given enough characterization to distinguish them from Ana.

The interesting character in this reading is the Aunt, who I take to be a more moderate power that would presumably fill the vacuum that Franco left behind. As I said earlier, I agree with Lemmy Caution that she is a sympathetic character who tries her best, but after her troubled upbringing Ana has a very difficult time trusting her.

And what a troubled upbringing Ana has! I was kind of surprised to see people say they could relate to the film; although my childhood obviously wasn't perfect, I never saw it as dark and bleak as this film depicted it. As adult Ana states in the movie, she never saw childhood as an inherently happy time, and this film matches that description perfectly. For one thing, death is constantly hanging over this movie, quite literally from the opening scene of the father dying to the closing scene where Irene relates a dream where she is kidnapped and killed while her parents are away. With everything in between, from the girls playing a game of hide and seek where people who are found "die", to poor Roni's sudden passing, to Ana wishing both herself and her Aunt dead, death is never far from the narrative.

The effect of this is that Ana is almost unnaturally accustomed to death at a very young age. She asks her grandmother if she would like help in commiting suicide just as easily as she asks if she would like to go out in the garden, and she poisons her aunt without any remorse whatsoever. For me, the most chilling part of this movie was the scene where she goes to check on her aunt, and rather than feel the sudden guilt that I would feel when I was younger and realized I had made a mistake (never anything like this, fortunately!) she coldly takes the glass and washes it, presumably to hide the evidence. The impression I get is that being surrounded by death has made death very ordinary for her.

Another example of this is the scene where Ana's mother confronts her father over his infidelities. We see this scene through Ana's memory, where first she is watching from the top of the staircase but by the end of the scene has moved to within feet of the arguing parents, so that we see the back of her head in the frame as if she were sitting a few rows ahead of us in the audience of the theater. It is a very dramatic scene, with the mother breaking into tears and the father erroneously dismissing the idea that she is dying. At another point in the movie, we see the two girls reenacting this scene as they "play house". The complexity of the exchange and the accuracy of their word choice seems like something that they could not have made up on their own, so presumably they are reenacting a scene that they had witnessed between their own parents enough times that it became burned into their memories. Except this time, there is no drama- they are laughing through a scene that had driven their mother to tears. I get the impression that they have seen this event enough that it has become normal to them, similar to how death has become normal to Ana. I think this is the crux of Saura's message in the film- people aren't intentionally raising the ravens of the title, but when the younger generation is raised in war and conflict, you run the risk of war and conflict becoming the norm for them. I felt that Ana was a very broken child in this film, and despite the Aunt's best efforts to "fix" the damage caused by her upbringing, I think it is going to stick with her for a long time. We never see any resolution to Ana's desire to kill her aunt; I don't see any reason why she won't try again.

One other aspect that I thought was interesting enough to touch on was Ana's relationship with her grandmother. Both of them are living in the past, with the grandmother spending the days reminiscing on old photographs, and Ana reminiscing on her mother and pulling her into the present.

Finally, what's with the chicken feet in the fridge? My best guess is that they are a popular snack, perhaps given to the children by their mother and thus provide the same blend of morbidity and nostalgia that is present throughout the movie, but this is just (rather weak) speculation on my part.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#87 Post by Mr Sausage »

You could well have it right, although we never see the father actually interacting with his kids. There are some hints that he wasn't overly concerned with them, but they're only hints, and it's hard to build an allegory on them.

Also, as a quibble that I wouldn't ordinarily bring up except I want keep discussion going: I don't think Ana simply finds death 'ordinary.' For the most part she doesn't quite seem to understand it, despite how central it is to her childhood. At different points she treats it as a children's game, as something that's deadly serious, as something that's convenient, or merciful, or bewildering, painful, powerful. Death isn't taboo to her; it is, however, confusingly multiform.

There is something chilling about the way she takes care to wash the glasses she used to 'poison' her father and aunt (and makes sure to mix them among the other cups so it's not easily identifiable), but at the same time there's something innocent and unknowing about it, like a child who tries to hide the evidence of something naughty. It's matter-of-fact in the way you'd expect from someone who doesn't grasp its seriousness.


To the poster who asked about the gun: yes, it was loaded. The man chambers it and a round comes out (we then hear him chamber it several more times with several bullets audibly hitting the floor).
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#88 Post by jindianajonz »

Yeah, I took the fact that Ana has multiple encounters with her mother and pretty much none with her father (I don't think there's anywhere in the film where he even acknowledges their existance; he only interacts with others) to mean that he wasn't really present in her life, in either good ways or bad way, but you're right, there's no way to be certain of this.

One other thing I didn't get: Adult Ana says something along the lines that the trip to the countryside was one of the most memorable events of her childhood, but I don't really see much to it other than she caught her father kissing the friend's wife. Why was this scene so important to her?
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#89 Post by Mr Sausage »

jindianajonz wrote:One other thing I didn't get: Adult Ana says something along the lines that the trip to the countryside was one of the most memorable events of her childhood, but I don't really see much to it other than she caught her father kissing the friend's wife. Why was this scene so important to her?
You're mixing up two different moments: the moment adult Ana mentions is when she, her sisters, and their aunt go to the country estate. It's where they're told to go outside and they play a game that ends with all of them feigning death.

This segues into a memory of an earlier visit, when their mother and father were still alive, and this is when Ana sees her father's infidelity. So even the best moment of childhood is mixed with sadness and dysfunction.

The other hint of their father's lack of interest is the table-manners scene.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#90 Post by Lemmy Caution »

I was also wondering about the chicken feet.
I put it down to the duality throughout the film, as they are disturbing in one way but also rather commonplace.
To me, it combines pain and suffering with daily routine but, like Roni, I'm a vegetarian, so might be prone to going a bit far on this kind of point.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#91 Post by Mr Sausage »

I don't think chicken feet are a common food item outside Asia, so, I don't know, maybe on top of being disturbing it's meant to have a political implication, decadence or something.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#92 Post by Lemmy Caution »

No one seems to be eating them.
Perhaps they represent something alien and disturbing introduced by the aunt, even if they are actually benign. A metaphor for the aunt herself.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#93 Post by jindianajonz »

Lemmy Caution wrote:No one seems to be eating them.
Perhaps they represent something alien and disturbing introduced by the aunt, even if they are actually benign. A metaphor for the aunt herself.
I had noticed that nobody seemed to be eating them as well (unless everybody was loving them offscreen and they were getting replenished).

I don't think the Aunt brought them in, since Ana first sees them immediately following her fathers death, before the Aunt comes to the house. I wondered if it was something the father enjoyed (hence nobody eating them anymore) and they represented his "spirit" (for lack of a better word) lingering over the film in the same way the Mother's spirit enters the film more visibly.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#94 Post by swo17 »

Mr Sausage wrote:I don't think chicken feet are a common food item outside Asia
I think this is actually a common food in Spanish-speaking countries as well, often found in soups.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#95 Post by jindianajonz »

I tried googling it, and although I found references to a chicken feet export company in Spain, most sources list chicken feet as a Mexican ingrediant rather than a Spanish one.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#96 Post by swo17 »

Well it's been a while and I don't remember many details, but I've had soup with chicken feet in it in South America before.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#97 Post by Drucker »

It's great to see so much written about the film. I agree with jindianajonz's excellent post in a lot of ways, and I think he puts a good perspective on the film.

Once I was able to get into the film's stylization, of blending flashback and present tense, I found it pretty easy to follow upon first-viewing for a film like this. The only scene that really had me confused was the scene early on when Ana's mother comes to brush her hair and pretend to bite her on the neck. It also seems to be the only one where her daydreaming is called out directly (by Rosa), if I recall correctly.

One thing I'll bring up though that hasn't been brought up, specifically: the scene where Ana walks in on her mother in wretching pain, screaming "it's all a lie." I guess it's fair to believe that most of the film's flashbacks happened or at least grounded somewhat in reality by one of Ana's memories. But what about this one? Did anyone else find this seem fascinating? I wondered if this was, chronologically, one of the last time's she sees her mother. The next time we see her mother after this, she's telling her husband that she's ill and being brushed aside as melodramatic. I don't recall there being a rhyme or reason to the order of the scenes with mother, apart from her present-tense triggering flashbacks, but this one seems to stand out strongest to me, and maybe it'll make even more sense if/when I re-watch the film.

Another point I think worth making is that Ana is not taken seriously. I don't know really how to connect this with the political undertones of the film, but she is clearly deeply troubled. She actually tries to kill her family member, she has witnessed events that have scarred her, and is growing to grow up an orphan. Yet when her aunt's male caller takes the gun away from her, he laughs it off. Children being children? It's as if the man who in this scene, who represents/is a part of the military, is laughing off the idea that his power could be challenged.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#98 Post by jindianajonz »

That scene with the comb is also the only time that Ana's mother interacts with anybody besides Ana- Rosa actually hands her the comb as she is getting up. Doesn't really mean anything, but I thought it was curious.

I also noticed that Rosa and Pauline become surrogate parents for the girls, yet they share a lot of the same traits as the original parents. Rosa has the sexuality of the father but the nurturing nature of the mother, while Pauline has the cold distance of the father and the exasperated helplessness of the mother. Also like the original parents, the two argue with eachother, though it is over how to raise the children rather than the sexual character's dalliances.

On the scene of Ana's mother on her deathbed, two things stood out for me. First of all, "It's all a lie" is a horrible thing to be teaching your children, and the fact that this may very well be her last words to her daughter makes it even worse. Secondly, Ana's reaction to the scene is remarkably unconcerned- I felt as if most children would have more of a reaction to seeing their mother in pain. Together, these two facts led me to believe that Ana didn't become broken because she grew up with an apathetic father, but that she was like this even when her mother was alive, and thus both parents are culpable in her turning out the way that she is.

Good point about the male caller laughing off the idea that his power could be challenged, though after he found out the gun was loaded I'm sure he reevaluated this position!
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#99 Post by Mr Sausage »

Drucker wrote:It's as if the man who in this scene, who represents/is a part of the military, is laughing off the idea that his power could be challenged.
That's reaching a bit. Reacting to stressful or uncertain situations with laughter is common and has nothing to do with power politics. Tho' I am sure he was using the moment to get in with the aunt, showing how calmly he can handle a situation.
Jindiana Jonz wrote:First of all, "It's all a lie" is a horrible thing to be teaching your children, and the fact that this may very well be her last words to her daughter makes it even worse. Secondly, Ana's reaction to the scene is remarkably unconcerned- I felt as if most children would have more of a reaction to seeing their mother in pain. Together, these two facts led me to believe that Ana didn't become broken because she grew up with an apathetic father, but that she was like this even when her mother was alive, and thus both parents are culpable in her turning out the way that she is.
Um, the mother's behaviour when she's dying and out of her mind with pain and fear tells you nothing about how she behaved before that point. Certainly the mother's difficult marriage left a negative impression on Ana, but I don't see anything that makes the mother particularly culpable (Ana's memories show her to be caring and concerned).

As for Ana's reaction, I think the movie makes clear that she's an introvert. Whatever she's feeling, it's internalized, and probably buried too as a defense mechanism. I also took her placid reaction to be both confusion and fascination, the reaction of someone who's stunned. She feels rage and pain obviously enough since she tries to poison her father for causing, she believes, her mother's death.

What really shows Ana's confusion and difficulty in dealing with all the emotional baggage are the delayed reactions, especially the moment she becomes hysterical in bed after her dream fades away, and the way she transfers her sudden anguish on to her Aunt since no other suitable object is in view. There we get a glimpse of what she's buried deep down. So I wouldn't say she's broken simply because she doesn't externalize her emotions immediately, but I would say she confused, numb, and probably burying her feelings like many introverts.
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Re: Cría cuervos (Carlos Saura, 1976)

#100 Post by Lemmy Caution »

jindianajonz wrote: I don't think the Aunt brought them in, since Ana first sees them immediately following her fathers death, before the Aunt comes to the house. I wondered if it was something the father enjoyed (hence nobody eating them anymore)
I think you're right, they were there before the aunt.
I still like the idea of them representing the alien and menacing quality of the aunt while really being benign. Linking them to the father makes some sense, but doesn't seem to lead anywhere. In any case, the third time we see the chicken feet, with a close up on them no less, really begs for some interpretation. Maybe just another element of unease and death which runs through the film. Or perhaps they presage the tragic death of Roni (I'm kidding).
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