Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[bugsy_pal]

Bruce Kimmel is a tiresome (and tireless) troll and the HTF is a cesspit that uses "civility" as a smokescreen for groupthink, censorship, and bullying. Jeffrey Kauffman (let's get his name right, at least) sounds like the only rational person in this particular back-and-forth, but let's not forget that he's also the guy we regularly mock for writing reviews that seem to lack the most basic comprehension of cinematic language and technical language and, well, language.

As david hare says, who gives a fuck about any of these people? Or, more to the point, how can I find out the little bit I need to know about their friggin' disk releases without having to wade through all their crap.

Well said - I would have to agree. The vitriol that arises there from certain quarters is at times is astonishing. I only go there to see what Robert Harris has to say.

[kingofthejungle]

Well said - I would have to agree. The vitriol that arises there from certain quarters is at times is astonishing. I only go there to see what Robert Harris has to say.

What irritates me about HTF is the relentless boosterism that goes on there (or reverse boosterism in the case of Olive). It tends to bury everything else on the site, including the often very valuable contributions of experts like RAH and Bob Furmanek. Currently, the resident Twilight Time fan club is desperately trying to spin a case for the superiority of their favorite label's version of Brian DePalma's The Fury over Arrow Films cheaper, extra-stacked, and flawlessly state-of-the-art scanned region B release. This time they aren't even left with the fig leaf of the isolated score to credit to the Twilight Time, as the Arrow disc has that too. To put this near-religious zeal into perspective, none of this matters to the label anymore -- the film did it's job, and delivered them a sell out. So this continued insistence of a now redundant disc is either the utmost in devotion, or someone has a stack of sealed copies from pre-order day lying around that they still need to unload.

[MichaelB]

Currently, the resident Twilight Time fan club is desperately trying to spin a case for the superiority of their favorite label's version of Brian DePalma's The Fury over Arrow Films cheaper, extra-stacked, and flawlessly state-of-the-art scanned region B release. This time they aren't even left with the fig leaf of the isolated score to credit to the Twilight Time, as the Arrow disc has that too. To put this near-religious zeal into perspective, none of this matters to the label anymore -- the film did it's job, and delivered them a sell out. So this continued insistence of a now redundant disc is either the utmost in devotion, or someone has a stack of sealed copies from pre-order day lying around that they still need to unload.

I'm following this with appalled fascination - it's both completely insane and truly hilarious at the same time. Interestingly, I think Kimmel is preparing the ground for a volte-face (let's face it, every review of the Arrow so far has been a total rave and they can't all be lying, surely?), but his argument now is couched in the following terms:

If a company wants to go to that kind of expense, effectively and basically knowing they cannot recoup when you add licensing costs, manufacturing, authoring and whatever else they did, then that's the way it is.

Which looks suspiciously like "OK, so Arrow's disc might be better, but they're spending more money than TT and selling it for less, which means that they're cheating!"

Kimmel is in fact right to say that a single label would struggle to recoup that kind of expense, but if he'd done only the most superficial research he'd have found out that Arrow's new transfer was co-funded by Carlotta, who also partly funded the Fiction Factory-produced extras and will be bringing out their own edition in France in a matter of weeks. Similarly, Kimmel was right to assert earlier that Fox would never let the original camera negative out of the country, but wrong to conclude that Arrow must therefore be lying (his clear implication), since the scan was performed at Deluxe in L.A. under James White's remote supervision before the digital files were worked on at Deluxe in London - one of the great things about today's technology is that this sort of thing is now possible.

All of which could have been explained to him upfront if he'd taken the trouble to ask people like HTF forum member David Mackenzie (who did the encode and knows the transfer and the disc's production history as well as anybody) instead of resorting to poorly-educated guesswork and, frankly, flagrant bias that isn't remotely supported by the actual evidence.

(DISCLAIMER: I regularly freelance for Arrow, and although I had no input into this particular release at any stage, I obviously have to declare an interest in the label in general. So although I believe everything above to be 100% true, that has to be borne in mind.)

[doc mccoy]

TT have not had any real competition up until now - there was no opportunity for direct comparison. The fact that they now have competition in the form of superior PQ, AQ and extras from Arrow and Carlotta sets a disturbing precedent for them, which potentially threatens their business model. Why rush in to buy these titles when others can deliver them for better value?

For instance, if there was even a hint that another label would be putting out Christine or the the 90s Blob, do you think you'd be seeing sell outs on one night, and the scalpers out in force?

[swo17]

Why rush in to buy these titles when others can deliver them for better value?

Because for any given title, there's no guarantee that someone else will be in any rush to put out a competing edition, let alone a superior one. There aren't that many cases like this one, not yet anyway.

[kingofthejungle]

Kimmel is in fact right to say that a single label would struggle to recoup that kind of expense, but if he'd done only the most superficial research he'd have found out that Arrow's new transfer was co-funded by Carlotta, who also partly funded the Fiction Factory-produced extras and will be bringing out their own edition in France in a matter of weeks. Similarly, Kimmel was right to assert earlier that Fox would never let the original camera negative out of the country, but wrong to conclude that Arrow must therefore be lying (his clear implication), since the scan was performed at Deluxe in L.A. under James White's remote supervision before the digital files were worked on at Deluxe in London - one of the great things about today's technology is that this sort of thing is now possible.

All of which could have been explained to him upfront if he'd taken the trouble to ask people like HTF forum member David Mackenzie (who did the encode and knows the transfer and the disc's production history as well as anybody) instead of resorting to poorly-educated guesswork and, frankly, flagrant bias that isn't remotely supported by the actual evidence.

I couldn't have said it better. That Arrow and Carlotta were able to work out an arrangement that made the seemingly-impossible a reality isn't evidence that they were cheating, but a credit to their dedication. The Twilight Time disc no doubt represents the most reasonable and expedient result a small-label should offer within it's given budget constraints. That Arrow wasn't satisfied until it far exceeded that result is what inspires such goodwill toward the label. It regularly goes above and beyond.

TT have not had any real competition up until now - there was no opportunity for direct comparison. The fact that they now have competition in the form of superior PQ, AQ and extras from Arrow and Carlotta sets a disturbing precedent for them, which potentially threatens their business model. Why rush in to buy these titles when others can deliver them for better value?

For instance, if there was even a hint that another label would be putting out Christine or the the 90s Blob, do you think you'd be seeing sell outs on one night, and the scalpers out in force?

This is an interesting point, and the scalpers surely got burnt on The Fury - which might wind up being a net positive for people wanting to buy Twilight Time discs in the future. I've bought quite a few Twilight Time discs, and like most of them, but I've been putting off purchases a lot more lately, waiting to see if the title might be coming from another, less expensive source.

[MichaelB]

The Twilight Time disc no doubt represents the most reasonable and expedient result a small-label should offer within it's given budget constraints.

It cannot be stressed enough that the Twilight Time disc is perfectly decent - it's just not absolutely state-of-the-art. And similarly, Arrow's discs aren't all as good as The Fury - only two of their other titles to date have undergone the full James White treatment from original negs (Zombie Flesh Eaters and Time Bandits).

It just so happens that in this particular instance you have Twilight Time punching below their usual weight and Arrow punching above theirs - for the most part, their discs are broadly similar in terms of transfer quality of the main feature, because they both rely heavily on existing HD masters from major studios.

In other words, for all the apocalyptic forecasts for the survival of Twilight Time's business model as a result of the comparative merits of each BD of The Fury, you probably won't see too many similar scenarios actually happening in practice. Not least because Arrow's major studio-sourced discs are invariably locked to Region B.

[Orlac]

I feel daft for getting the TT 'The Fury'. Overly expensive, and nowhere near selling out until the Arrow was announced.

As for Mr Haines, what is it with crazy people and that name?

[swo17]

Overly expensive, and nowhere near selling out until the Arrow was announced.

If the Arrow announcement was going to do anything, it would have been to delay the sellout of TT's version. Since the opposite happened, you can surely chalk up the close timing of these two events to mere coincidence.

[Orlac]

Overly expensive, and nowhere near selling out until the Arrow was announced.

If the Arrow announcement was going to do anything, it would have been to delay the sellout of TT's version. Since the opposite happened, you can surely chalk up the close timing of these two events to mere coincidence.

What I meant was, I could have cancelled my TT order once it became obvious it wasn't selling out, and just waited.

[swo17]

But it did sell out, within about a week of the announcement that stock was running low.

[Orlac]

But it did sell out, within about a week of the announcement that stock was running low.

Hadn't the Arrow been announced by that point?

[swo17]

Yes, a couple months prior. So the only reason to buy the TT at that time was if you were determined to have that edition. There was no reason to buy it if all you cared about was having the film on Blu-ray (and you were Region B capable).

[Orlac]

Yes, a couple months prior. So the only reason to buy the TT at that time was if you were determined to have that edition. There was no reason to buy it if all you cared about was having the film on Blu-ray (and you were Region B capable).

Yeah, was too late by then for me! (I ordered it with Christine).

[bugsy_pal]

Currently, the resident Twilight Time fan club is desperately trying to spin a case for the superiority of their favorite label's version of Brian DePalma's The Fury over Arrow Films cheaper, extra-stacked, and flawlessly state-of-the-art scanned region B release. This time they aren't even left with the fig leaf of the isolated score to credit to the Twilight Time, as the Arrow disc has that too. To put this near-religious zeal into perspective, none of this matters to the label anymore -- the film did it's job, and delivered them a sell out. So this continued insistence of a now redundant disc is either the utmost in devotion, or someone has a stack of sealed copies from pre-order day lying around that they still need to unload.

I'm following this with appalled fascination - it's both completely insane and truly hilarious at the same time. Interestingly, I think Kimmel is preparing the ground for a volte-face (let's face it, every review of the Arrow so far has been a total rave and they can't all be lying, surely?), but his argument now is couched in the following terms:

If a company wants to go to that kind of expense, effectively and basically knowing they cannot recoup when you add licensing costs, manufacturing, authoring and whatever else they did, then that's the way it is.

Which looks suspiciously like "OK, so Arrow's disc might be better, but they're spending more money than TT and selling it for less, which means that they're cheating!"

Kimmel is in fact right to say that a single label would struggle to recoup that kind of expense, but if he'd done only the most superficial research he'd have found out that Arrow's new transfer was co-funded by Carlotta, who also partly funded the Fiction Factory-produced extras and will be bringing out their own edition in France in a matter of weeks. Similarly, Kimmel was right to assert earlier that Fox would never let the original camera negative out of the country, but wrong to conclude that Arrow must therefore be lying (his clear implication), since the scan was performed at Deluxe in L.A. under James White's remote supervision before the digital files were worked on at Deluxe in London - one of the great things about today's technology is that this sort of thing is now possible.

All of which could have been explained to him upfront if he'd taken the trouble to ask people like HTF forum member David Mackenzie (who did the encode and knows the transfer and the disc's production history as well as anybody) instead of resorting to poorly-educated guesswork and, frankly, flagrant bias that isn't remotely supported by the actual evidence.

(DISCLAIMER: I regularly freelance for Arrow, and although I had no input into this particular release at any stage, I obviously have to declare an interest in the label in general. So although I believe everything above to be 100% true, that has to be borne in mind.)

Thanks for that useful clarification and background. Kimmel and others continue to harp on about the uselessness of screengrabs in comparing the two version of The Fury. Of course they have their limitations, but I think it's pretty obvious that the Twilight Time disc does exhibit some sharpening and faux digital grain.

What's really annoying is how any debate just gets shat on from a great height by the likes of Kimmel, with his heavy handed and elitist approach. I have no desire to take part in such discussions, but am drawn there just to witness the sheer folly of it all.

[tenia]

for the most part, their discs are broadly similar in terms of transfer quality of the main feature, because they both rely heavily on existing HD masters from major studios.

But you would have to agree that the ratio price / quality is not the same, no ?
I mean, TT tends to deliver high-priced almost-barebones discs, while Arrow releases are quite low priced and at least includes a nice range of extras. I know that the economic models are not the same, but for the end customer, it's still bare-bones US disc for $30-35 VS usually-loaded disc for £13.

But of course, that's certainly all in favor to region locking to avoid this type of possibilities.


As for The Fury, Fabien Braule confirmed to DVD Classik that the new restoration is co-founded by Arrow, Carlotta and an Australian editor which I forgot the name.

[Jeff]

I've bought quite a few Twilight Time discs, and like most of them, but I've been putting off purchases a lot more lately, waiting to see if the title might be coming from another, less expensive source.

Same for me. I have been a big Twilight Time booster, defending their business model and buying lots of their discs -- especially when they were releasing things early on that no one else seemed to be interested in. As they've moved to more frequent mainstream films though, they are going to get bested by distributors in other regions like this more and more often. I'm going to be hesitant to buy most of their MGM discs.

My enthusiasm for supporting these guys has waned somewhat too. I was all for Mr. Redman defending his company and his business model -- I still think it's a perfectly reasonable approach for a small-time hobbyist like himself to take. His increasingly strident responses in interviews are making it harder and harder for me to respect what he does though, and his friend Mr. Kimmel (who frequently comes across as a genuine asshole) constantly promoting and defending the company in the most obnoxious (and now completely nonsensical) way isn't helping matters.

On a more pleasant note, my local public library is getting my Twilight Time release of The Fury.

[Erhen]

If you were to meet Kimmel (and I pray that you never do), you might actually feel sorry for him. He's a sad, bitter guy who oozes negativity, something that comes through quite clearly in virtually everything he posts online. Simply dropping by his website (something else I only recommend for the stouthearted) is an object lesson in his almost pathological need for approval--he regularly exhorts/admonishes his 8-10 regular posters there to up the post count, as if that is some kind of arbiter of success. He also regularly insists his opinions are facts, a trait he shares with at least some of the people he regularly complains about. He's now whining on HTF about the posts here. I have an image of him in his little house furiously Googling himself by the hour to see if he's famous yet.

[Moe Dickstein]

Interesting. I've met Bruce Kimmel in person several times and he's always been a charming and delightful presence in the room.

Always interesting to see how the prism of the internet can distort reality.

[Erhen]

Interesting. I've met Bruce Kimmel in person several times and he's always been a charming and delightful presence in the room.

Always interesting to see how the prism of the internet can distort reality.

In case it wasn't clear, I've known Kimmel for decades. He can in fact be charming, but he is one of the most relentlessly negative people I know. Just my 2 cents' worth, YMMV.

[tenia]

From Nick Pinkerton, about Body Double, in this month Sight & Sound :

"The quick disappearance of the typical 3000-disc limited run in enough to make one question the kindness of TT's existing small-batch model, which leaves so many consumers in the dust."

[Perkins Cobb]

Even the HTF faithful seem to be done with the nonsense.

Nonsense. If Epstein tells them to have fun, they yell "HOW MUCH FUN?"

[Moe Dickstein]

Perkins if I might ask did TT and the HTF drown your babies or something? I wonder what breeds such hostility

[MichaelB]

Perkins if I might ask did TT and the HTF drown your babies or something? I wonder what breeds such hostility

Don't take it personally - he's been just as rude about the BFI and Second Run in the past. And doubtless others, but since I freelance for those labels I tend to notice!

[Perkins Cobb]

he's been just as rude about the BFI and Second Run in the past. And doubtless others

What is this, a witch hunt now? I was "rude" with those labels when they fucked up (on The Devils and Marketa Lazarova, respectively) and positive with regard to discs they got right. But let's just go ahead and take that out of context and throw in "doubtless others" without citing anything specific for good measure.

I don't really have an axe to grind with Twilight Time but have gradually gone from positive to negative/neutral in terms of their business model and, more significantly, their lackluster selections of late. As for the HTF, it neatly encapsulates a lot of the really wrongheaded approaches to internet behavior and cultural discourse so, yeah, I enjoy a good giggle whenever anyone points out an especially exuberant paroxysm of stupidity over there.