Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[Moe Dickstein]

To the best of my knowledge, SAE is a long time distributor of film scores. That is their chief product, as you can see when you visit the website.

The reason that TT got hooked up with them as distributors is through Nick Redman's decades as a soundtrack producer (which is a key reason the releases have isolated scores as well). So basically SAE added on the DVD/Blu product into their traditional CD pipeline, and were willing to support this new experimental venture due to their history with Nick. Aside from this familiarity and past interaction, SAE and TT have no ownership or partnership in common.

Nick, Brian and Julie all have full time jobs in addition to their work with TT so I doubt they have a lot of time to visit around to the various forums. I do also think that the level of hostility shown towards them here would make them less inclined to come around and shoot the breeze. There are absolutely valid criticisms to be made but sometimes they're made in a less than constructive manner. I feel like if I was working at any of these labels (TT, Olive, etc) that I'd want at least a certain level of respect and civil discussion going on if I was going to get involved on a board - no matter your feelings for or against something. I feel like they wouldn't receive the same level of respect that for example Nick Wrigley deservedly receives (for the most part).

I know that they are working to add value to the discs they release in a way that makes sense and doesn't compromise their ability to break even. If you look at several recent titles there are quite a few extras. Look at Blue Lagoon: Two commentaries, a documentary, trailer and isolated score. Hardly bare bones. In the past the studios simply refused to allow the material to be carried over (That's why As Good As It Gets lost its commentary on TT) but as the relationship grows over time, they have loosened up on those restrictions. I also think some of the recent artwork has been pretty great - Drums Along The Mohawk and Alamo Bay in particular. So I think if people take a closer second look they'll see many of these assumptions aren't always the case (such as all releases are bare bones).

[repeat]

Nick Redman's decades as a soundtrack producer (which is a key reason the releases have isolated scores as well)

Ha, I figured there was a connection - at one point I actually thought they were singling out films for release based on the scores, as many of them would certainly merit that approach!

I think you're right that at this point they might be disinclined to show up here, but I was wondering if it would be so had they done it at an earlier stage. A lot of the grumpiness and hostility seems to stem from the fact that people have had to conjecture about their motives and intentions. I don't know if I'm severely overstating the importance or relevance of this board but if I were to start a label, among the first things I would do pr-wise would be to come here and say hi, here's a new label, have a look.

(I do agree that the actual cover art has improved recently, I just personally loathe the plastic cases - just as much with MoC and Criterion, but at least they use the less offensive transparent ones)

[Moe Dickstein]

You're on the money with your thought - some of the films were chosen as much for an important score as for any other reason.

The original idea was to release films that had never had a DVD release, and 20 titles were licensed from Fox. Soon they realized that Blus would be what people wanted. They learned the lessons about non anamorphic letterbox titles, and I think there hasn't been much complaint that their titles over the last 2 years have looked as good as is possible - when the transfers didn't meet that standard, some titles have been rejected. Pony Soldier for example is a victim of past Fox management junking original elements and the current Fox team led by Schawn Belston has done heroic work with what they have. When Sony came in, they stipulated that only films already released by them on DVD could be licensed for Blu, so that meant they wouldn't be putting out as many "discoveries" from Sony, and I think you can see how the Fox releases have in general been more "deep catalog" type films.

I'm excited to see things like The Disappearance which is the first non-studio license and the new deal with MGM for a great deal of titles. Already I know they've had to reject some of the MGM titles they wanted because the transfers available weren't up to their standard - and I think this is the reason that on other boards people prefer TT to Olive, because Olive will in most cases put out whatever they can get their hands on (though to their credit they have cancelled some planned releases more recently due to poor elements), and when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

As to PR, I know Nick does post from time to time on HTF, so if you are also a member there you could post on one of the TT threads there, and as you've mentioned their Facebook page. Perhaps by continuing an open dialogue here we can encourage them to someday stop in here for participation. I'd also like to see the people behind Olive lay out some of their thoughts behind their decisions. There is one person on HTF who seems to have inside connections with Olive but isn't with them officially.

[MichaelB]

when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

You won't always win your bet, though - by all accounts the TT transfer of The Fury is below par, while Arrow's upcoming release is scanned directly from the original camera negative. Obviously, I haven't seen it myself and nobody outside Deluxe in London has been able to do a direct comparison just yet, but it would be surprising if TT came out on top here.

(And of course the Arrow disc is half the price and with far more extras!)

[kingofthejungle]

and I think this is the reason that on other boards people prefer TT to Olive, because Olive will in most cases put out whatever they can get their hands on (though to their credit they have cancelled some planned releases more recently due to poor elements), and when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

I don't buy this at all. The reaction against Olive that I've read has been entirely due to their decision to not perform digital clean up on many of the titles they release. I have dozens of Olive releases, and I've yet to see one that made me think - "You know what? This just really doesn't merit a Blu-Ray".

However, that's exactly what I thought after viewing Pony Soldier - the condition of the elements was so bad that the high definition format just doesn't add any value. I appreciate that it's a rare title, but Fox has lots of other rare westerns and rare Tyrone Power films more deserving of the format. I'm not blaming them for the poor elements, only for choosing to release them.

There is one thing TT could do to easily one-up Olive, and I suspect make a lot of fans in these parts: commission a Tag Gallagher video essay on any future John Ford releases. That would be well worth the price of admission.

[Drucker]

I don't really have a foot in this race, and I keep starting comments and then not finishing them, but I just want to emphasize one point I do feel strongly about: the difficulty required to attain Twilight Time titles is frustrating enough to have a legitimate problem with their business model.
As is stressed elsewhere in threads, Criterion releases have an audience beyond hardcore cinemaphiles and Criterion collectors. While I do see that many people on this forum are willing to go to extreme lengths to save a few bucks to get a purchase, I'm much more passive about what I purchase. If it's on sale and in a store I like to frequent (Barnes and Noble, Kim's, Princeton Record Exchange), I will more likely buy it. Why did I buy Champion? Because I had a coupon and it had just come out and looked like a great film, so I just bought it at B&N. I cannot just casually buy any TT title and that is annoying. And considering the wealth of films on blu ray that I can pick up with great ease (and if I'm buying something I can only get online, it'll likely be the dozens of releases I'd still like from MOC), why would I get a TT title?
I know that ordering something online is not "difficult" by any stretch of the imagination. But it is enough of a deterrent to buy a title for me, on occasion. (For full disclosure: I only own The Big Heat, though I am probably going to buy Drums Along the Mohawk and Alfredo Garcia.)

[repeat]

As to PR, I know Nick does post from time to time on HTF

Never been there, but I stumbled upon this two-year old interview with Mr. Redman in which many questions regarding their business model are addressed. It's probably been linked to over the years already but might be relevant, seeing as this discussion is still/again active.

[EddieLarkin]

I don't really have a foot in this race, and I keep starting comments and then not finishing them, but I just want to emphasize one point I do feel strongly about: the difficulty required to attain Twilight Time titles is frustrating enough to have a legitimate problem with their business model.
As is stressed elsewhere in threads, Criterion releases have an audience beyond hardcore cinemaphiles and Criterion collectors. While I do see that many people on this forum are willing to go to extreme lengths to save a few bucks to get a purchase, I'm much more passive about what I purchase. If it's on sale and in a store I like to frequent (Barnes and Noble, Kim's, Princeton Record Exchange), I will more likely buy it. Why did I buy Champion? Because I had a coupon and it had just come out and looked like a great film, so I just bought it at B&N. I cannot just casually buy any TT title and that is annoying. And considering the wealth of films on blu ray that I can pick up with great ease (and if I'm buying something I can only get online, it'll likely be the dozens of releases I'd still like from MOC), why would I get a TT title?
I know that ordering something online is not "difficult" by any stretch of the imagination. But it is enough of a deterrent to buy a title for me, on occasion. (For full disclosure: I only own The Big Heat, though I am probably going to buy Drums Along the Mohawk and Alfredo Garcia.)

Playing devil's advocate here, but I think what TT would say is that their releases are not for casual purchasers, but for the top 3000 fans of any given title. I think that's probably how they justify the model, that there is likely 3000 mega-fans out there that are happy to pay the cash and happy to deal with SAE, whilst the more casual ones are happy to wait the 3 years anyway and see if the studios are going to do anything on a more traditional basis.

That's obviously not how it really is of course, because we have this big forum culture where everyone wants everything, regardless of how much of a fan they are. I'm guilty of precisely that. I've enjoyed nearly all of my TT purchases, but I wasn't a "fan" of any of them beforehand.

Never been there, but I stumbled upon this two-year old interview with Mr. Redman in which many questions regarding their business model are addressed. It's probably been linked to over the years already but might be relevant, seeing as this discussion is still/again active.

There is an another interview here that basically covers the same ground, but Redman does speak somewhat about the reason why the limited edition/soundtrack style model was the only option for them financially. He also mentions about how much work goes into some of the ISTs (they may not be appreciated by most, including myself, but I imagine it's more work than filming a new 10 minute interview with a surviving star from the film, which would be considered a "legit" supplement), and how they end up with the titles like Fright Night, which they themselves have little interest in.

when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

You won't always win your bet, though - by all accounts the TT transfer of The Fury is below par, while Arrow's upcoming release is scanned directly from the original camera negative. Obviously, I haven't seen it myself and nobody outside Deluxe in London has been able to do a direct comparison just yet, but it would be surprising if TT came out on top here.

(And of course the Arrow disc is half the price and with far more extras!)

I think this says more about how brilliant Arrow are rather than anything negative about TT. Barring maybe Criterion, it is very rare for any boutique label to be doing their own scans/transfers. And I think it'll remain rare for TT titles to be bettered image wise. Though I'm all for more instances of Arrow, or any other Region B label to look at the studio masters available and say "Nope, we'll spend some serious cash on our own transfer thanks".

[Moe Dickstein]

when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

You won't always win your bet, though - by all accounts the TT transfer of The Fury is below par, while Arrow's upcoming release is scanned directly from the original camera negative. Obviously, I haven't seen it myself and nobody outside Deluxe in London has been able to do a direct comparison just yet, but it would be surprising if TT came out on top here.

(And of course the Arrow disc is half the price and with far more extras!)

It's absolutely true that TT is at the mercy of what's available from the studio. Do anyone outside Criterion and Arrow do their own scans? We know Olive don't do any cleanup generally, and I thought I'd heard of MoC doing their own work on things cleanup wise from time to time, but I'm not expert in this area so I leave it to others to answer.

[MichaelB]

It's absolutely true that TT is at the mercy of what's available from the studio. Do anyone outside Criterion and Arrow do their own scans?

The BFI does, more often than not - although they have the advantage of an archival remit as well as a commercial one, so it's easier for them to justify the expense. And MoC very occasionally does its own scans - The Passion of Joan of Arc being the most recent. (Arrow's original creations are Zombie Flesh Eaters, Time Bandits, The Fury and White of the Eye, the last two of which aren't out yet.)

[Orlac]

when TT releases something that looks rough, you can bet that it's likely the best it will ever look.

You won't always win your bet, though - by all accounts the TT transfer of The Fury is below par, while Arrow's upcoming release is scanned directly from the original camera negative. Obviously, I haven't seen it myself and nobody outside Deluxe in London has been able to do a direct comparison just yet, but it would be surprising if TT came out on top here.

(And of course the Arrow disc is half the price and with far more extras!)

Night of the Living Dead is definetly not the best it could look - the transfer is badly timed. The dvd is much better.

[Moe Dickstein]

Night of the Living Dead is definetly not the best it could look - the transfer is badly timed. The dvd is much better.

No, the Blu is accurate to the wishes of the creative team behind the film.

[Orlac]

Night of the Living Dead is definetly not the best it could look - the transfer is badly timed. The dvd is much better.

No, the Blu is accurate to the wishes of the creative team behind the film.

In my opinion, retrospective wishes or misinterpreted ones. It's far, far too dark, to the point where the daylight opening looks like night!

[Moe Dickstein]

I think this has been well covered elsewhere. Personally I always side with the creators of the film no matter what they decide to do to their own work. Yes, even George Lucas.

[dwk]

The DoP of Night of the Living Dead wasn't happy with the Blu-ray transfer, but I think that Savini was.

[swo17]

These kinds of changes have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but the one party that shouldn't be faulted in such a situation is the DVD label. If you don't like that aspect of the NotLD release, blame Savini, not TT.

[Orlac]

I don't blame Twilight Time per se.

In general, I feel fidelity to what was released back in the day should have priority over a decision made 20 years later. Or, you know, present BOTH options.

[Moe Dickstein]

From what I remember the video didn't reflect the theatrical look either, it was standard practice in those days to boost brightness so the VHS/DVD master is not an accurate indicator of the original theatrical look anyway, its just what people got used to.

[dwk]

I'd blame Sony not Savini since he didn't have anything to do with the changes. As I understand it, Frank Prinzi gave some notes, over the telephone, on what he wanted and Sony went ahead and created the new master without bringing him or Savini in to either supervise or approve the changes.

[Moe Dickstein]

Savini did approve of it when he saw it

[dwk]

Like I said earlier, Savini was fine with the changes but I don't think he saw the transfer until he got the Blu-ray.

[Lowry_Sam]

Well I guess I'm not going to have an opportunity to revise my opinion of SAE/TT. I shopped around for a bit on the site to add a soundtrack or 2 & went to the checkout, got a prompt to re-enter my email, when I did, The Big Heat disappeared from my order. I called them & they said they're all sold out. While the guy I talked to was courteous, he never said he'd take my name or anything in the event that their "numbers are off again." I guess poor customer service is the rule these days. So now, not only will I not buy Body Heat, I won't buy anything else from the over $100 order I was going to place.

For the record, here is the reply I received about how SAE's website works (and the fact that an item that you think you are buying can disappear from your order before you actually hit the final confirm button:

Chris – it was on inventory and it was me who you talked to – there is nothing I can do because someone else beat you to it. Having it in your cart does not secure the purchase until you complete the transaction. I am sorry that you did not get it but this happens in our rare section where there is only one copy of an item. The website runs fine and did exactly as it should have and the customer service aspect I tried explaining to you on the phone and now by email. I can’t stop you from complaining on the message boards but please be sure to include my explanation if you do. I am sorry for your frustration but it has sold out. With apologies - Ed

[tojoed]

Seems fair enough to me. If it sold out before you paid, it's just bad luck.

[Feego]

I believe that is pretty much standard procedure at most if not all online stores. An item does not disappear from the website until it is paid for, so even if you have something in your cart, it is still up for grabs to all other customers.

[PfR73]

Yeah, that happens with most internet retailers. It could even happen with Amazon. The cart is not a hold.