Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[Drucker]

Ah, eff it. Pre-ordered The Disappearance, Sexy Beast, and Body Double. Also added Rapture to the mix, although I didn't get to watch that one yet.

Total cost: $127. Damn, TT is expensive. I bought 4 Criterions from Barnes and Noble yesterday for only $78.

Of course, if it wasn't their semi-annual sale...it would've been $160...

[criterion10]

Ah, eff it. Pre-ordered The Disappearance, Sexy Beast, and Body Double. Also added Rapture to the mix, although I didn't get to watch that one yet.

Total cost: $127. Damn, TT is expensive. I bought 4 Criterions from Barnes and Noble yesterday for only $78.

Of course, if it wasn't their semi-annual sale...it would've been $160...

Probably still would've been less, since Amazon usually has new Criterion's at about $30...

[knives]

And of course those criterions have more extras.

[Timec]

Probably still would've been less, since Amazon usually has new Criterion's at about $30...

Yeah, I buy Criterions throughout the year and have never paid more than about $28 for a regular release. MSRP isn't that meaningful - unless the product is only sold on one or two sites.

I'm sure if there were some sort of reliable way to get Twilight Time releases for cheaper than MSRP if you waited around long enough, there'd probably be a lot less complaining about their prices. Unfortunately, there is no semi-annual sale on the Screen Archives site, afaik. (Though the TCM Shop might offer a discount occasionally.)

[criterion10]

Yeah, I think the prices for TT releases are the biggest issue here. I can't say how many times I went back and forth between ordering the 4 titles I previously mentioned (Sexy Beast, Body Double, The Disappearance, and Rapture) and not ordering them, because as much I as I do want to add those films to my collection, $127 is an astronomical price, especially considering the lack of special features for a film like Rapture.

As a side note, it will be interesting to see what titles TT picks up from MGM, since my assumption is that Criterion could have had almost any of them.

[Emak-Bakia]

I was poking around on the Screen Archives site earlier today, just for the hell of it, and noticed that Body Double has a three per customer limit. I guess they must anticipate that one selling out quickly?

[repeat]

Unfortunately, there is no semi-annual sale on the Screen Archives site, afaik

If there was even a 20% sale, I'd order half a dozen to ten titles without a second thought (did that with the Hyperkino releases), but as it stands, the price point is just too high for a barebones disc in a ugly standard Blu-ray case. There's a whole bunch of TT titles I really want to buy, but I just keep putting them off my in the hope that they'll turn up somewhere for cheaper eventually (even though I know that just the opposite is more likely to happen). It's a real bummer.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I think the prices for TT releases are the biggest issue here. I can't say how many times I went back and forth between ordering the 4 titles I previously mentioned (Sexy Beast, Body Double, The Disappearance, and Rapture) and not ordering them, because as much I as I do want to add those films to my collection, $127 is an astronomical price, especially considering the lack of special features for a film like Rapture.

Since you ordered four, you could have thrown in the autographed copy of The Only Game in Town for free. They still had some about 15 minutes after the pre-orders went up yesterday. I didn't want that one, but I've tried to time my Twilight Time orders to sets of four around the time they're doing the freebies, thus reducing the average cost per disc.

[mfunk9786]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Rapture is worth every penny.

[Taketori Washizu]

They have released some quality titles, too bad about the exorbitant prices. They also don't add any extra features and occasionally port over old features, but it doesn't justify their pricing. Then when they quickly go out of stock on a title, some poor sucker has to pay out of the arse to acquire it via Amazon vendor or on Ebay. I would really like to get Renoir's Swamp Water, but 60.00 on Amazon from some seller? Fuck that.

[jedgeco]

TT assured some facebook posters a while back that, based on sales of "The Fury," there was no reason to think that "Body Double" would sell out. Outpacing sales projections probably means that TT is starting to gain more awareness in the general public.

Which is a positive development. If TT starts selling out its titles quickly and on a regular basis, it will be more likely to determine that it can be a real business and move away from its limited-run model to something more like the Olive model.

[peerpee]

More likely they'll keep the same stifling price point, despicable throttle on purchase options, expensive shipping options with "talk to the hand" warnings if shipments don't arrive without insurance, and just up the limited edition run to 5,000 or 10,000.

[vsski]

For me the TT sales model is most closely designed to the Soundtrack collectors model, where often titles have very limited runs and are sold through very few channels catering to an even smaller niche market.
What I expect to see happen with TT is that they keep their limited run model, but will become more flexible as to the limitation numbers per title. For Horror titles they probably go to higher numbers, while titles like Swamp Water will remain where they are.

Given their business model of paying everything upfront and taking all the risk, control over distribution channels and pricing is critical for them. Therefore I only expect them to sell through more sales channels if they tightly control the number of units sold through each channel, and the more channels the more of an admistrative task this becomes.

Not trying to defend their model, but this to me seems the most likely future.

Edited for typos!

[pointless]

More likely they'll keep the same stifling price point, despicable throttle on purchase options, expensive shipping options with "talk to the hand" warnings if shipments don't arrive without insurance, and just up the limited edition run to 5,000 or 10,000.

Adam Jahnke of The Digital Bits has an article about TT's business model: The Trouble with Twilight Time.

[krnash]

Body Double is now back up to order from SAE, with a new warning saying under 900 now remain. I guess they made a miscalculation. A similar thing happened with Christine.

As for the TT model changing, I suppose it's possible that the new deal with MGM could be entirely different to the ones made with Fox and Sony.

I'm sure no one panicked and made a snap decision to buy a copy. What a convenient mistake for Twilight Time!

[domino harvey]

I try to avoid casting aspersions but this does seem like an awfully convenient error

[vsski]

Adam Jahnke of The Digital Bits has an article about TT's business model: The Trouble with Twilight Time.

I don't disagree with Mr. Jahnke's assertions, but I see the TT model driven first and foremost by P&L. You have two people who are doing this as their hobby trying to release titles that the studios aren't interested in, while at the same time not wanting to lose their shirt. I don't believe that the numbers are solely driven by the studios but also by how much TT can afford or is willing to pay upfront. It is possible or even likely that 3,000 is the minimum number demanded by the studios, but I'm sure TT would have no problem negotiating higher numbers if they wanted - the problem of course is that they also take on higher risk.

If I remember correctly they said their breakeven point is around 1,500 units sold, so at their current sales price of $30 that means they make a profit of approx. $15 per title.
Mr. Jahnke is of course correct that the price point, limited and to the common buyer unknown sales channels and lack of extras make many of the titles not desirable to a vast audience and one can argue not even to the very collectors they are intended for. However, by choosing lower price points, making them available through more common sales channels and producing extras the cost increase and now the break even point becomes much higher. Of course one could argue that also a lot more units would be sold.

The problem with that is that the sales of more units require more upfront investment and I venture to guess that TT is not willing to take this risk - at least they weren't until now.
If they can change the upfront licensing agreement with the studios and get them to share in the risk somewhat, things may look different.

So if anything I see the problem with the TT model that it is two individuals who do this as a hobby completely with their own money.

[mfunk9786]

I try to avoid casting aspersions but this does seem like an awfully convenient error

No longer a limit of one per customer, either.

[matrixschmatrix]

Wow, do I feel snookered. How do you 'miscalculate' fully a third of your inventory?

[mfunk9786]

I was excited to buy this yesterday, give the movie a shot (still haven't seen it) and resell it at auction if I didn't like it. But even with the potential of profit out there, I no longer want to support this company.

I'll still cling tight to my copy of Rapture, but these folks are slimy.

[Moe Dickstein]

From what I understand these are the issues with:

Extras - any extras TT produces will, in the case of Sony at least, revert instantly to Sony's ownership. This is something they do because of being burned in the past by having to horse trade with Criterion to get back commentaries etc for their films when they wanted to release them themselves. This seems funny now but is nevertheless part of their contracts.

3000 copies - if you go over this figure, then certain deals with union residuals kick in, which is why soundtracks are limitied to this figure usually as well. I don't see them going over the 3k on any titles because this would hugely increase the upfront costs.

As Vsski has noted, for better or worse, this is Nick and Brian (and Julie) doing this in their spare time, to try to be another outlet to get these films out there. In most cases with the "bigger" titles the studios themselves requested TT release them rather than them being requested for the label by the label.

[knives]

Well that second point just makes this all the slimier. Do you mean that because of the 3000 limit the living members of these films won't be getting any royalties?

[cdnchris]

Wow, do I feel snookered. How do you 'miscalculate' fully a third of your inventory?

Yeah, that's a little ridiculous. If it was Paramount and a normal run of discs I wouldn't be surprised by the misplacing of 900 discs (or more!) But it seems really suspicious when 900 of your 3000 went missing and then suddenly show up after a run. That number should be far easier to keep track of.

This is one of the few De Palma's I haven't seen so when I heard they were down to their last few I was tempted, but ultimately didn't go for it. But of course I was only tempted because it was down to the last few, so I can only imagine there were many that bought it for the same reason. After this I'm really glad I didn't buy it and will wait for a possible (but not guaranteed) overseas release.

[jedgeco]

3000 copies - if you go over this figure, then certain deals with union residuals kick in, which is why soundtracks are limitied to this figure usually as well. I don't see them going over the 3k on any titles because this would hugely increase the upfront costs.

This is my understanding as well -- it's the residuals kicking in at copy 3,001 that's the real bar. (Aside -- I find this screwing over of the talent which enriching the studio the most problematic issue with TT.)

So as I noted above, TT will need to decide whether it wants to become a real label or not. Because if there's money to be made by going over 3,000 on these titles, someone will do it if TT won't.

[EddieLarkin]

Wow, do I feel snookered. How do you 'miscalculate' fully a third of your inventory?

Yeah, that's a little ridiculous. If it was Paramount and a normal run of discs I wouldn't be surprised by the misplacing of 900 discs (or more!) But it seems really suspicious when 900 of your 3000 went missing and then suddenly show up after a run. That number should be far easier to keep track of.

With Christine I think it was a case of some customers "hacking" the cart somehow or other, to get by the 1 per customer limit and putting through orders for multiple copies. This messed up their calculations causing it to "sell out" about 300 copies early. Perhaps something similar happened this time, and with a harsher limit imposed than usual the likelihood of scalpers trying to game it may have been higher.

Or it was TT being devious and evil again.