Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[knives]

I'm sure a mixture of Crit, Shout!, Olive, and insert other company here would give us Blus without being heinous about it.

[MongooseCmr]

Nobody was interested in The Heat of the Night, Judgement at Nuremberg and Witness for the Prosecution, or MGM wasn't interested in licensing them?

[EddieLarkin]

I'm sure a mixture of Crit, Shout!, Olive, and insert other company here would give us Blus without being heinous about it.

I'm sure they would if they had the budget. Criterion are the major players and put out 70 titles a year. That barely scratches the surface, they've licensed about 12 MGM titles I'd describe as Hollywood studio fare since they started a deal with them. The fact is if the studios don't want to play ball then most of everything won't get a shake on Blu-ray. Acting like it'd be better if Twilight Time didn't exist is rubbish. All it means is we wouldn't have 90% of their titles available to us on Blu-ray, and for a lot of them possibly never would. The price sucks, the limited edition bollocks really sucks, but it's not a terrible thing they are making films available.

Nobody was interested in The Heat of the Night, Judgement at Nuremberg and Witness for the Prosecution, or MGM wasn't interested in licensing them?

Both, maybe. All I know is we're 8 years into the format and those films are nowhere to be seen.

[knives]

I'm sure a mixture of Crit, Shout!, Olive, and insert other company here would give us Blus without being heinous about it.

I'm sure they would if they had the budget. Criterion are the major players and put out 70 titles a year. That barely scratches the surface, they've licensed about 12 MGM titles I'd describe as Hollywood studio fare since they started a deal with them. The fact is if the studios don't want to play ball then most of everything won't get a shake on Blu-ray. Acting like it'd be better if Twilight Time didn't exist is rubbish. All it means is we wouldn't have 90% of their titles available to us on Blu-ray, and for a lot of them possibly never would. The price sucks, the limited edition bollocks really sucks, but it's not a terrible thing they are making films available.

That, especially the last bit, isn't true though. Many of their titles are not new to American home video and many of their titles have subsequently gotten better and cheaper Blu releases elsewhere and the more they trudge along the more their irrelevance is clear. That plus their shadiness on some things only makes them more offputting. Even their few worthwhile releases aren't worth putting up with them for.

[EddieLarkin]

I'm not arguing for their business model, or their customer service skills. I'm simply saying their existence is good, their deal with MGM is good.

And although they've released a number of pointless discs, it's disingenuous to imply that they make up most of their catalogue. When I think Twilight Time I think Bell, Book and Candle, Bite the Bullet, Rapture, Bye Bye Birdie, Experiment in Terror, Major Dundee, etc etc etc. Do you honestly see those films on Blu-ray today or in the next 3 years in a world where TT are absent? If so, who released them?

Even their few worthwhile releases aren't worth putting up with them for.

In what way do you have to put up with them exactly? How do they intrude on your life?

[knives]

Even of the titles you mentioned I can only see two discs where you could make an argument for them, Rapture and the previously P&S only Bite the Bullet, with the others seeming ridiculous to have only in their horrendous form. Why should I, for example, buy their Major Dundee when I can get the perfectly reasonable DVD for so much cheaper and on a website more user friendly then Screen archives. As to your final question, no, they don't literally intrude on my life but I never suggested that. They do make it bothersome to get things I in theory would like, if their Bite the Bullet release was cheaper and available at other websites I'd have gotten it by now. Also I've seen many foreign members of the board discuss unsavory tactics made by them that I strongly disapprove of.

You admit their business model is bad. You admit their costumer service is bad. So why then are they a good thing when they are taking away from other businesses with better models and better costumer service (and sometimes better transfers) these films from release. If nothing else they are the argument for going region free.

[Gregory]

Many of their titles have subsequently gotten better and cheaper Blu releases elsewhere

If this is really true, a list of these from anyone more knowledgeable about availability than me would be helpful. It was my impression that in nearly all cases TT is the only label who has these titles in print on blu-ray, which is why people have bought them.

[EddieLarkin]

Even of the titles you mentioned I can only see two discs where you could make an argument for them, Rapture and the previously P&S only Bite the Bullet, with the others seeming ridiculous to have only in their horrendous form. Why should I, for example, buy their Major Dundee when I can get the perfectly reasonable DVD for so much cheaper and on a website more user friendly then Screen archives.

I assumed we were talking about the Blu-ray market only. Blu-ray would be my reason for choosing the TT disc from Screen Archives over the Sony disc from Amazon.

As to your final question, no, they don't literally intrude on my life but I never suggested that. They do make it bothersome to get things I in theory would like, if their Bite the Bullet release was cheaper and available at other websites I'd have gotten it by now. Also I've seen many foreign members of the board discuss unsavory tactics made by them that I strongly disapprove of.

But surely you realise that if TT were not around Bite the Bullet wouldn't even be something you could consider purchasing? And maybe it's too bothersome for you, but for me it isn't. The cost of the discs are not a huge concern to me. I don't really put a value on films I want to see. Maybe that's naive but I don't know, for things like this I just don't see it as a huge problem. The limited edition model is concerning, but I'm "lucky" enough to be a dedicated forum dweller to ensure I can't miss out. As for Screen Archives, I've heard a lot of bad things too, but despite being a foreign member myself, I've had nothing but good service from them. Indeed, they are one of the few places that take steps to ensure I receive no import charges on delivery.

You admit their business model is bad. You admit their costumer service is bad. So why then are they a good thing when they are taking away from other businesses with better models and better costumer service (and sometimes better transfers) these films from release. If nothing else they are the argument for going region free.

I don't think they're taking away anyone's business. Yes, maybe a handful of discs would have seen the light of day regardless, but as I said above, with the studios not playing ball, there is more than enough to go around. Too much more, unfortunately.

[knives]

Many of their titles have subsequently gotten better and cheaper Blu releases elsewhere

If this is really true, a list of these from anyone more knowledgeable about availability than me would be helpful. It was my impression that in nearly all cases TT is the only label who has these titles in print on blu-ray, which is why people have bought them.

I don't have all of them in my memory, but I'm pretty sure all of the Sony releases have German Blus for example.

[EddieLarkin]

Many of their titles have subsequently gotten better and cheaper Blu releases elsewhere

If this is really true, a list of these from anyone more knowledgeable about availability than me would be helpful. It was my impression that in nearly all cases TT is the only label who has these titles in print on blu-ray, which is why people have bought them.

Cheaper, yes. Sony released or will release international versions of the following TT titles for you to import. Most are region free and set you back about $15 less than the TT disc:

As Good as It Gets
The Blue Lagoon
Philadelphia
Sleepless in Seattle
Oliver!
The Way We Were

I've not heard anything about these titles being better than their TT counterparts though. Note how all of them are TT titles certainly of the least interest to the sort of user who visits criterionforum.org

These Fox titles were released in international markets too, but I believe both used poorer transfers than the TT disc:

The Egyptian
The Rains of Ranchipur

The Fury is coming from Arrow and will likely be as good or better than the TT disc. Violent Saturday was released by Carlotta in France, certainly better than TT's non-anamorphic DVD! TT are due to upgrade theirs soon. The Kremlin Letter (DVD) was released by Eureka and is indeed superior to the TT DVD (*this has apparently just been released on Blu by a label in France; TT may upgrade it themselves). Oh and Odeon recently released My Cousin Rachel (DVD). No idea on its quality though, probably similar.

I don't have all of them in my memory, but I'm pretty sure all of the Sony releases have German Blus for example.

I count 27 released or announced Sony titles. 6 have released or announced international discs.

[dwk]

Yes, how better we'd all be if Judgment at Nuremberg, Khartoum, Inherit The Wind, In the Heat of the Night, Huston's Moby Dick, Witness for the Prosecution et al, continued to languish on decade old DVDs. No one else seems interested, so if the only choice is the $35/limited window run around, so be it.

Surely the alternative is cutting off the nose to spite the face?

1) Do you know for a fact that those are the titles that they've licensed from MGM? For all we know they've licensed a batch of horror and science fiction films from MGM. Films that would be better served by Shout/Scream, Synapse, etc.

2) Does MGM have HD masters of those films ready to go? If not, you can forget TT releasing them, because they don't create new masters.

As for the German Blu-rays, those titles use the same masters and look exactly alike

Another thing about Sony, I know that Shout/Scream is interested in a number of their titles, but Sony's no new extras policy has kept Shout from licensing from them. It really makes no sense that Sony will let Criterion create special features, but they will not let Shout do the same.

[TMDaines]

But, anyway, what do Sony gain by asking people not to create extras for the films they have sourced from them? If anything, it would surely make a product less desirable and would result in less copies being sold. I don't understand the logic behind their stance.

[EddieLarkin]

Can someone shed some light on Sony's "no extras" policy? Other than to be spiteful, why would it exist?

But, anyway, what do Sony gain by asking people not to create extras for the films they have sourced from them? If anything, it would surely make a product less desirable and would result in less copies being sold. I don't understand the logic behind their stance.

I don't think it's the case that Sony do not allow labels to have extras on the discs. It's that any extras that are produced for Sony licensed films become the property of Sony, rather than the label. I seem to recall Cliff of Shout/Scream Factory saying this was the reason they won't licence from Sony. They can produce supplements, but they hold no rights to them once they go on the disc. Personally, I'd rather see the films out on Blu-ray than worrying about missing out on a 10 minute interview with one of the stars.

[Moe Dickstein]

Eddie is 100% correct about the situation from Sony

[zeroman987]

Well, there's another title I love but won't be able to own in HD anytime soon. Congrats Twilight Time. Well done.

Doesn't sound like you wanted to own it. You had more than 12 months to buy it and failed to do so. I think the only one to blame is your self. (or maybe Sony for licensing out to Twilight Time)

[TMDaines]

That's rather ridiculous and unfair. I don't blame labels from refusing to deal with them in that case.

[rwaits]

Well, there's another title I love but won't be able to own in HD anytime soon. Congrats Twilight Time. Well done.

Doesn't sound like you wanted to own it. You had more than 12 months to buy it and failed to do so. I think the only one to blame is your self. (or maybe Sony for licensing out to Twilight Time)

You're correct, I don't want to own a TT release. Someone on here posts a couple days ago that there are around 500 copies of Big Heat remaining, then a day later they're sold out... do you think all 500 people (or more likely far fewer than 500) who ordered those copies are planning on watching tonight? Check ebay in a few weeks. I get it's a free market and all, but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious. I know the procurers for this label are all about creating a sense of collectibility and that's fine, it's their business.

I'm region free. As you pointed out, I've already held out, and I can wait a little longer. Thanks.

[swo17]

Why are you complaining that you no longer have the opportunity to buy something that you had no desire to buy for the year that it was readily available?

[EddieLarkin]

Why are you complaining that you no longer have the opportunity to buy something that you had no desire to buy for the year that it was readily available?

Well due to the business model they operate on, The Big Heat can now not be released by anyone else in the U.S. until April 2015. Twilight Time retain the licence until then. So arguably they are restricting it's distribution for a 2 year period during which purchases can not be made. Which does sort of suck.

But this idea that The Big Heat would be available to us to buy on Amazon from some other label for $15 if it wasn't for evil old Twilight Time is complete rubbish. When Sony released the film themselves on DVD, they relegated it to what was essentially a TCM/Warner Archive style box set, along with 4 other noirs they clearly consider B fare. Twilight Time essentially rescued the film from that box set (I think more for the fact Glenn Ford is in it than for any actual quality the film holds), for what will probably be its only Blu-ray release ever. Without them, I doubt it would ever have escaped.

Indeed, I think the films popularity in 2013 has a lot more to do with the brouhaha over its Blu-ray release than anything else. Most people (I don't mean the big Lang fans you'd find on this forum) had not heard of it, and it certainly makes little appearance in the big "Film-Noir" lists. This was one of the few top tier films Twilight Time got their hands on yes, but it was never hugely popular and it was obviously a rubbish seller.

[knives]

That's not true on several accounts. The film had an independent R1 release before the boxset and it was included in the boxset exclusively to move product. It remains, at least with noir aficionados, on of the more popular titles of the genre. The same is true of several of their releases such as Pal Joey and Bell, Book, and Candle.

[EddieLarkin]

Ah, yes I overlooked the solo release, sorry. Still, I think you over estimate all three of those films saleability. Again, who releases Bell, Book, and Candle on Blu-ray in a Twilight Time absent world? Criterion would turn their noses up at it, I imagine Image and Mill Creek wouldn't be interested. Who else does Sony even have distribution deals with?

[knives]

Do you have any evidence of your claims or are they just there to make your point seem as if it has a basis in reality?

[EddieLarkin]

Sorry, which claims are you referring to?

[knives]

Criterion would turn their noses up at it, I imagine Image and Mill Creek wouldn't be interested. Who else does Sony even have distribution deals with?

[EddieLarkin]

Well I think any evidence can be found in the respective labels catalogues. I've seen the film, and I enjoyed it a great deal but I don't see Criterion making a good argument for it being cultural significant. I think Twilight Time only chose it because Kim Novak is in it and it has a Duning score. I know we get surprises from Criterion sometimes but I really don't see it. As for Image and Mill Creek, well, their catalogues are more random but again, their focus seems to be elsewhere. Obviously Olive would rush to put something like BB&C out, but it's not as simple as that is it? They have a distribution deal with Paramount, and as far as I'm aware, only with Paramount.