17 / BD 11 Vengeance Is Mine

[RossyG]

I seem to be getting an email from The Hut every few hours apologising profusely for the delay. I emailed back saying, don't worry, I can wait an extra week or so, but they still keep apologising.

[broadwayrock]

Beaver on the new Blu-ray

[med]

Oh good, the menu screens are now even more in-your-face nsfw.

[John Edmond]

Hopefully the banding problems Beaver refers to turn out to be nothing -- because the captures seem to present the perfect balance between MOC and Criterion's DVD releases: not too dark or green, decent flesh tones, and the right ratio. I was mildly worried by Peerpee's slightly deprecating remarks regarding their source but this looks gorgeous.

[zedz]

Looks great. I was reluctant to buy this a third time, but I might just have to.

A couple of queries:
The subtitle sample suggests that MoC have retranslated the film - is this correct?
And is the content of the booklet all or mostly new? Are the essays from the DVD booklet brought over or not?

[RossyG]

Hopefully the banding problems Beaver refers to turn out to be nothing...

Yes, some clarification on that issue from DVDBeaver or even Eureka would be appreciated.

[manicsounds]

Also, why is the Alex Cox intro shifted to the left of the screen as opposed to 1.33:1 in the center of the frame? Some 20th Century Fox releases have this strange unusual problem.

[zitherstrings]

The right color scheme is a desaturated Criterion then? Green tint is almost entirely gone but the colors are much less obvious. Wonderful grain. Good job MoC!

[peerpee]

A couple of queries:
The subtitle sample suggests that MoC have retranslated the film - is this correct?

From our new website NEWS update:

"The Blu-ray edition features an entirely new and greatly improved subtitle translation"

And is the content of the booklet all or mostly new? Are the essays from the DVD booklet brought over or not?

...also from the same page: "The 56-page booklet now contains an extensive new career interview with Imamura which spans the entire interior."

The essays in the previous booklet have not been brought over, but will feature at the website once we get time to focus on it. Some of the other stuff (maps, etc) is all in there still.

Also, why is the Alex Cox intro shifted to the left of the screen as opposed to 1.33:1 in the center of the frame? Some 20th Century Fox releases have this strange unusual problem.

Purely a DVDBeaver display quirk. If you "open image in new tab" you'll see that image is 4:3 at DVDBeaver, and on the actual Blu-ray it displays properly in the middle of the 16:9 frame.

[John Edmond]

Anybody who has since received their blu-ray feel like commenting on the possible banding problem?

[Cash Flagg]

Blu-ray.com review

[Cronenfly]

Just wondering: has the DVD in the new Dual Format edition been updated at all (i.e. new transfer from the same source as the Blu), or is it exactly the same as the solo release?

I only ask because I haven't made the jump to region free Blu yet, and, as a stopgap, an improved DVD would certainly help justify the upgrade...

[peerpee]

The DVD in the new VENGEANCE IS MINE Dual Format edition is the same as the old DVD, because the HD master used to make the Blu-ray was the same HD master used to make the DVD originally!

The only DVD we've upgraded in the new DFs is LA PLANETE SAUVAGE (where we ditched the old "FANTASTIC PLANET" DVD edition, and completely re-authored the DVD to match the Blu-ray).

We also created a new THE WORLD DVD (because this was a Blu-ray only release and a DVD didn't previously exist).

[The Doogster]

I just bought a copy of the dual format edition of Vengeance Is Mine on MoC.

I can't believe I'm the only one to have noticed that the Blu-Ray version of this movie is interlaced, not progressive scan. There are literally hundreds of instances of combing. This occurs whenever there is significant movement between frames. These artifacts are highly noticeable (and thus very annoying) when viewed on a projector. DVD Beaver makes a comment about these artifacts in its review, but does not elaborate. The standard def DVD version does not have this problem.

I'm a big fan of MoC (I've got just about all their Blu-Ray releases), but out of my 400+ Blu-Ray collection, this title is hands down the worst-looking pic quality I've ever seen on Blu-Ray. In addition to the combing, it has that washed-out, "vague" look that plagues every other 1080i image I've seen (mercifully I haven't seen that many 1080i discs).

It's a pity about the PQ (the sound qaulity is nothing to write home about either) on this title as it's such a fantastic movie. Any thoughts from anyone else with this disc?

[AK]

I just bought a copy of the dual format edition of Vengeance Is Mine on MoC.

I can't believe I'm the only one to have noticed that the Blu-Ray version of this movie is interlaced, not progressive scan. There are literally hundreds of instances of combing. This occurs whenever there is significant movement between frames. These artifacts are highly noticeable (and thus very annoying) when viewed on a projector. DVD Beaver makes a comment about these artifacts in its review, but does not elaborate. The standard def DVD version does not have this problem.

Just read your Amazon review today and came here to see if this has been discussed. I remember reading about this in Gary's review, so I'm really interested to hear more - not least because I've been thinking about buying this. Any screencaps out there?

[The Doogster]

Just read your Amazon review today and came here to see if this has been discussed. I remember reading about this in Gary's review, so I'm really interested to hear more - not least because I've been thinking about buying this. Any screencaps out there?

Attached are two screenshots (at 12:51 and 31:54). I hope a link to an external website is OK - I'm not sure how to embed pics directly in the post.

The artifacts are more prominent when there is a white object against a dark background. Note that I use a projector. If you have a small TV you may not notice the combing. On a 120 inch screen it will drive you mad!

[AK]

The Doogster, thanks for the screenshots. That's very noticeable! Anyone watching this on something like 40"-50" noticed how significant the combing is? I would love to hear from someone in-the-know more about the production of this particular transfer and how it ended up the way it is.

[peerpee]

It's the worst MoC Blu-ray transfer, and as time goes on, it's looking more and more like a mistake to have bothered. It was made from a very early HD telecine that had a ton of problems. A lot of work was done in the encode to try and make the best of it, and this solved a lot of problems, but not all of them unfortunately.

Criterion have an HD master without any of these issues, but with a slightly different colour grading.

Don't let it put you off any of the other Imamura Blu-rays, all of which are quite stunning (or indeed any of the other MoC Blu-rays!)

[The Doogster]

Wouldn't be the first time the Beev's caps nearly deterred people from buying MoC discs (La Vie de Jesus, anyone?), but then one ought to know better than merely going by Gary's grabs.

I don't trust anything that guy puts on his website either. He gave a good review of MoC's 'Vengeance is Mine' which has the worst picture quality in the history of the Blu-Ray format. He didn't spot the problems with 'The Duellists' either. I think he must do all his viewing on a portable TV from the 1970s. IMHO if you are not viewing movies through a projector then you are not really qualified to comment on picture quality.

[TMDaines]

That seems a little extreme though considering only a few slim minority will watching their Blu-rays in a similar manner. At least it would highlight any flaws though.

[MichaelB]

That seems a little extreme though

Well, he did begin with the wildly hyperbolic claim that Vengeance is Mine "has the worst picture quality in the history of the Blu-Ray format". I know it has issues, but that's clearly absurd.

[The Doogster]

Well, he did begin with the wildly hyperbolic claim that Vengeance is Mine "has the worst picture quality in the history of the Blu-Ray format". I know it has issues, but that's clearly absurd.

I stand by that statement. When you consider the high quality of the source film, then the MoC version (which I've posted about - including screen shots - on that title's own thread on this forum) clearly has the worst picture quality relative to its source I've ever seen. You know something is wrong when the DVD version is leaps and bounds better than the Blu-Ray. OK, so I've only got 500 Blu-Ray discs, so maybe there are worse titles out there, but for the moment I am content to crown Vengeance Is Mine as the worst I have ever seen. Maybe I should ditch my projector and watch all my movies on an iPad.

[swo17]

For all its flaws, the Blu-ray corrected the color scheme from the DVD, and had higher resolution.

[Gregory]

MoC's 'Vengeance is Mine' ... has the worst picture quality in the history of the Blu-Ray format.

You've seen every Blu-ray ever released? I'm impressed.

[AK]

For all its flaws, the Blu-ray corrected the color scheme from the DVD, and had higher resolution.

I haven't bought this yet but might as well eventually, since I'm not holding my breath for a Criterion Blu, and they'd probably just make it from their HD master with that colour grading. So the MoC is my likely destination anyway, regardless of whether the combing is significantly visible or not.

But out of curiosity, how noticeable is the combing when one is not using a projector?

It's the worst MoC Blu-ray transfer, and as time goes on, it's looking more and more like a mistake to have bothered. It was made from a very early HD telecine that had a ton of problems. A lot of work was done in the encode to try and make the best of it, and this solved a lot of problems, but not all of them unfortunately.

Criterion have an HD master without any of these issues, but with a slightly different colour grading.

Don't let it put you off any of the other Imamura Blu-rays, all of which are quite stunning (or indeed any of the other MoC Blu-rays!)

And thanks, Nick, for sharing this. And sorry that I'm here to thank you so belatedly. I haven't seen The Insect Woman, but Pigs & Battleships and especially Profound Desires of the Gods are indeed superb Blus. Not to mention the rest of the MoC titles I have.