The Animation List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Mr Sausage]

Several years back I bought a sort of field guide to yokai (traditional Japanese ghosts and monsters), but I don't find it available at Amazon anymore (or anything else quite like what I recall). In it, one found a number of entities who show up in Spirited Away (or near relatives, at least). Nausicaa.net used to also have valuable background information on this film (as well as other Ghibli films), but last time I looked, much of the older material was not accessible (or not easily findable).

Could you give the title? I wouldn't mind looking it up in a library.

[knives]

I recently went through the first Woody Woodpecker DVD set, and I think there's really only one Woody short that rises above most of the rest: Pantry Panic (I think this was the fourth Woody short). And even Pantry Panic is not as good as the best of WB or Disney of this era (forties). Almost the entire set is mostly meh, with some flashes of brilliance, but Pantry Panic is consistently superb.

I'd say all of the Culhane helmed deserve more credit than that. He's probably the underrated genius of American animation consistently equally Jones at every turn and even occasionally besting him (I far prefer his Barber of Seville).

[Michael Kerpan]

Could you give the title? I wouldn't mind looking it up in a library.

If I can get my children to find this...

[Gregory]

I can't understand anyone into '40s cartoons finding almost the whole Woody Woodpecker Collection Vol. 1 to be "meh." Different strokes, but I find most of it to be far livelier, funnier, and much more appealing than what Disney was doing. Throughout the course of that first disc, one can follow the progression from really loose, rough stuff to the more finely tuned animation on display starting in the mid-1940s. I also love the earlier Lantz stuff, but the latter part of the '40s is my favorite era to watch over and over, catching the brilliant little nuances. The poses are better, the motion is smoother, but the wackiness of Woody and the other characters is still intact.
"Pantry Panic," from before that era, seems to combine styles of the previous era and what was to come: the earlier part of the cartoon, with the Groundhog announcing the weather report and all the birds heading south representing '30s animation, and the latter part with Woody vs. the cat looking ahead to the rest of '40s. I think a little too much time is given to the earlier part, setting up the premise, and not enough to woodpecker vs. cat.
It's strange how Woody's voice changes at the end of "Pantry Panic" for no apparent reason. Or was the "Yeah? So am I!" an attempt at an impression of someone? If so, seems like it wasn't pulled off too well. Probably just another example of how "loose" things were at Walter Lantz then, which definitely holds an appeal for me. But discs 2 and 3 of that set are where it's really at.

[colinr0380]

Angel's Egg (Mamoru Oshii, 1985)

Is this available on its own anywhere? I've only seen this animation from when it was cut up and used as strange hallucination/vision material punctuating that otherwise live action post-nuclear holocaust Australian film In The Aftermath: Angels Never Sleep.

I've always liked that film (and the animated interludes only add an extra jarring sense to the off-kilter events), but I'm not sure how well it represents Angel's Egg in its original form! I'd certainly love to get my hands on a release that includes both versions though!

[movielocke]

I can't understand anyone into '40s cartoons finding almost the whole Woody Woodpecker Collection Vol. 1 to be "meh." Different strokes, but I find most of it to be far livelier, funnier, and much more appealing than what Disney was doing. Throughout the course of that first disc, one can follow the progression from really loose, rough stuff to the more finely tuned animation on display starting in the mid-1940s. I also love the earlier Lantz stuff, but the latter part of the '40s is my favorite era to watch over and over, catching the brilliant little nuances. The poses are better, the motion is smoother, but the wackiness of Woody and the other characters is still intact.
"Pantry Panic," from before that era, seems to combine styles of the previous era and what was to come: the earlier part of the cartoon, with the Groundhog announcing the weather report and all the birds heading south representing '30s animation, and the latter part with Woody vs. the cat looking ahead to the rest of '40s. I think a little too much time is given to the earlier part, setting up the premise, and not enough to woodpecker vs. cat.
It's strange how Woody's voice changes at the end of "Pantry Panic" for no apparent reason. Or was the "Yeah? So am I!" an attempt at an impression of someone? If so, seems like it wasn't pulled off too well. Probably just another example of how "loose" things were at Walter Lantz then, which definitely holds an appeal for me. But discs 2 and 3 of that set are where it's really at.

I did enjoy seeing how Lantz' animation progressed and places they improved, particularly in the design shifts on Woody, I saw a lot of ups and downs with layout, and times when they reused a lot of animation. You know it's low budget and it's interesting how they worked out that and around that. But interesting can still be meh. They had little runs of success, and perhaps the Woody cartoons were a bit better than I give them credit for (the other cartoons on the set are almost all pretty atrocious, other than the one where FDR invokes the Confidence Fairy as the cure for the Great Depression and then dances a jig with Oswald)

Lantz's improvements as a studio are especially evident in the Chilly Willy shorts on disc three pre and post Avery, and I think I saw the guy Bugs Bunny is named after in some of the credits on those later cartoons, but even still most of the best of the Woody Woodpecker shorts never rose above very good to me. Pantry Panic stood out, but perhaps that's because it seemed so familiar, I wonder if it was on a VHS tape I watched as a kid. But I think the bigger problem is with the gags at Lantz, for many of the shorts the gags never seem to land or are too long or too short. Pantry Panic stands out as one where just about every gag lands for me, from Woody jumping off the summer diving board and landing in the winter ice to the "wha-ha-ha-ha" Starvation. And I think I like the crazy woody of the early forties a bit more than the more polished trickster of the later forties.

I found the Disc 1 and 2 Woody cartoons better overall, rarely misfires on these two, I found the disc three Woody cartoons much more varied in quality, though Sleep Happy was one of the best Woody cartoons of the entire set, and Stage Hoax and Slingshot 6 7/8 and Wild and Woody were pretty solid.

[movielocke]

Also count me as a third big fan of McKimson and Clampett, I prefer both to Avery, actually.

As for Jones, one of my absolute favorite shorts of his is "Feed The Kitty" which was referenced pretty brilliantly in Monster's Inc.

***

Regarding Spirited Away, there are a lot of interwoven threads of identity throughout the film. Obviously the film turns on the titular Sen to Chihiro, but there's also the important subplot of Haku and KoHaku, of No-Face's attempts to gain/seize an identity, the Baby/Mouse, and the crowspy/fly, The stinkSpirit/RiverGod, not to mention the 'villain' shares in this, as Yubaba is something of a split identity, less twins than two sides of the same coin, country and city, traditional and modern. So although Chihiro's transition to Sen to Chihiro is the central plot thread, you have all these supporting characters with their own narrative direction paralleling or criss-crossing her track and this is a big factor in what gives the story so much richness. the Hiding Away of a part of someone, whether it's Kohaku, Chihiro, Zeniba or Big Baby is a theme the film is exceptionally good at exploring, it's not just a story about how people become different as they grow up (aka loss of childhood innocence) but rather a story of how the world and environment and culture can cause a person to make themselves conform into something they perhaps are truly not.

(some of that stems from a more literal take on the title: 千と千尋の神隠し Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi which has been roughly described to me as "The Spirits' Hiding Away of Sen and Chihiro)

I don't think that the whole spirits' world/bathhouse contorts around Sen/Chihiro, Sen explicitly marginalized in that world, to a servants role and is quite literally given the task of mucking out the stinky stables (so to speak), when she has to serve the Stink God. This turns out well for her, but it doesn't center the bathhouse around her and she remains ignored--in part because NoFace does distort the world of the bathhouse, but Yubaba doesn't suspect Sen/Chihiro. In fact, because she's so marginalized, Sen/Chihiro is able to get around the bathhouse and aid Haku when he's nearly dying. And at the moment of greatest distortion she chooses to leave the bathhouse, and in doing so also causes No Face to withdraw and balance to be restored there. So she may have caused the problem, but she wasn't the problem itself, and she fixed the problem.

[Michael Kerpan]

> The Spirits' Hiding Away of Sen and Chihiro

I would guess that it is more like Sen and (or with) hidden-away-by-spirits Chihiro

[matrixschmatrix]

I don't think that the whole spirits' world/bathhouse contorts around Sen/Chihiro, Sen explicitly marginalized in that world, to a servants role and is quite literally given the task of mucking out the stinky stables (so to speak), when she has to serve the Stink God. This turns out well for her, but it doesn't center the bathhouse around her and she remains ignored--in part because NoFace does distort the world of the bathhouse, but Yubaba doesn't suspect Sen/Chihiro. In fact, because she's so marginalized, Sen/Chihiro is able to get around the bathhouse and aid Haku when he's nearly dying. And at the moment of greatest distortion she chooses to leave the bathhouse, and in doing so also causes No Face to withdraw and balance to be restored there. So she may have caused the problem, but she wasn't the problem itself, and she fixed the problem.

By the end of the movie, the entire staff of the bathhouse has come out to cheer Chihiro on, and she has become the key figure in the lives of everyone who appears to be a figure of importance there- she's initially marginalized, but obviously she becomes a celebrity and a central figure. I don't wish to accuse the movie of being any kind of Mary Sue fiction, because it clearly has a lot more depth than that, but that particular arc is very much the Mary Sue arc. It's not an unusual way to build a movie, it's just a place where I felt that Miyazaki's other movies had made themselves more interesting by avoiding it- for example, Castle in the Sky is in a sense precisely the opposite of that arc, where a chosen one narrative of a figure who seems to be totally central and vital to the entire magical world decides to keep herself marginalized, out of a sort of reflexive distrust of power itself. That's a take I haven't seen in many children's stories, and it's part of what made that movie a really strong one for me.

[movielocke]

I had a feeling you'd bring up the ending, the transformation of the pigs back to servants and attendant cheering is probably my least favorite part of the film. It's entirely open to that your interpretation, but also, small communities often show up to witness a pivotal event. as a third possibility, I take this less seriously and interpret it to be more Miyazaki undermining his seriousness (as he sometimes does) by reverting to a more cartoon-y characteristic at this particular moment.

Having recently rewatched Spirited Away, which has been in my top twenty for the last ten years or so, I'm thinking I maybe overrated it slightly, I may drop it from number one on my list down to two or three (below Beauty and the Beast / Bambi).

[matrixschmatrix]

Haha, well given your other top three choices, this is probably a matter of taste more than one of interpretation- outside of Fantasia, most Disney animation is stuff that I respect more than I like it, and I think that Spirited Away is a more Disney-ish Miyazaki than one sees elsewhere- which is a weakness for me, but obviously not for you.

[knives]

You should give Pinocchio another go around as that's a truly phenomenal with some great and truly impossible animation. The Donald war movies are worth a look too surpassing Fantasia in respects.

[matrixschmatrix]

Yeah, there are a few I haven't watched since I was a kid and to which I should give another shot- though I should add that I actually have a fondness for some of the less reputable 70s Disney movies, like Robin Hood and The Aristocats, as they seem pleasingly loose in their construction and less programmatic than a lot of the better respected classics.

[knives]

I have my problems with them in regards to them as animation, but as films they're highly enjoyable. Makes me wish somebody would revisit Pyrdain in a Games of Thrones type series.

[movielocke]

Robin Hood does steal a lot of animation from Bambi.

We rewatched Aristocats last year, atrocious movie, some good bits, but ugh.

Bambi is about the pinnacle of Disney's execution, incredible work at just every level

Fantasia will definitely be in my top ten. I plan on rewatching it soon.

Disney's prewar features, Bambi, Pinocchio, Snow White are all interesting studies in adaptation. I think they're quite ingeniously scripted and are highly successful as adaptations, I don't think this particular trio really loses qualities of the original in the way that is often implied by the later institutionalization of the Disneyfication interpretation of the studio's house style (looking at Disney practices before the parks and television is quite interesting). In some of these, I think the adaptation actually improved on the texts, particularly Pinocchio, where they took the themes of the original, but muted so much of the thunderous moral instruction of that text, letting the actions and drives of the characters and their interactions get across those elements in a more palatable and at times much more coherent manner. Last time I read Bambi I took away the same impression that I got from Pinocchio, but that's a much more forgettable text.

[Michael Kerpan]

Dumbo has gone WAY up as a result of my gradual re-visiting of the Disney classics (as they come out on Blu-Ray), Pinocchio has always been at or near the top -- from first meeting 55 or so years ago untuil the present. Bambi and Snow White are also wonderful, but I don't _love_ them quite as much. Waiting to see Jungle Book make it to Blu....

[movielocke]

Caught up with From Up on Poppy Hill today, amazing film, probably Ghibli's best since Spirited Away.

[Michael Kerpan]

Caught up with From Up on Poppy Hill today, amazing film, probably Ghibli's best since Spirited Away.

All things considered, I'd agree -- but we have films from both Miyazaki (Sr.) and Takahata due out soon...

[movielocke]

I see that both The Wind is Rising (Miyazaki) and Princess Kaguya Story (Takahata) are scheduled for release in Japan this year, any word if either will get a 2013 release in the US as well? Might Disney put The Wind is Rising out in just LA and NYC subtitled in the fall, get an oscar nom, and then release a dubbed version in February to coincide with the oscars?

[zedz]

You should give Pinocchio another go around as that's a truly phenomenal with some great and truly impossible animation. The Donald war movies are worth a look too surpassing Fantasia in respects.

Enthusiastically seconded. Pinocchio is far more a high-water mark for Disney (and classical animation as a whole) than Fantasia, which is conceptually sort of lame and has way too many draggy bits. The animation throughout Pinocchio is exquisite, the subject matter is wonderfully dark, with a deft juggling of tones, and the final section of the film is in the running for the greatest stretch of animation (in any form) ever executed. It's a must-see for this project.

[Michael Kerpan]

I see that both The Wind is Rising (Miyazaki) and Princess Kaguya Story (Takahata) are scheduled for release in Japan this year, any word if either will get a 2013 release in the US as well?

Think more like 2015, if we're lucky.

[knives]

TCM is going to be showing Jones' The Phantom Tollbooth (not as good as the book if my memory is alive) at 4:30 PM EST tomorrow.

[Dansu Dansu Dansu]

Top animated series -- Haibane Renmei

I second this; in fact, it's my spotlight title. Haibane-Renmei is a hard series to discuss without ruining, so I’ll have to be frustratingly vague. While indebted to Koreeda’s After Life and the novels of Haruki Murakami, especially Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World and The Wind-Up Bird Chronicles, Haibane still manages to be an original, deeply moving experience. I’ve watched the series three times now and it remains one of the most disarmingly emotional things I’ve ever seen. It falls under the category of “Ghibli-esque” anime, though no one would confuse it with the work of Miyazaki or Takahata.

If you watch it, I recommend viewing it on DVD with the Japanese track despite it being available on Hulu. While it's harmless to stream the first few episodes to see if you like it, the commercials torpedo the emotional effect of the last few episodes, as is often the case when a 5-Hour Energy commercial appears in mid-sentence.

[matrixschmatrix]

I've put that in as your spotlight, but just to be clear- the DVD release you're referring to is this one?

[Dansu Dansu Dansu]

That's the one. It was just re-released a few months ago after five years of being out of print. Perfect timing for this list!