Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[zedz]

Tone deaf indeed! Just when you think the dust has settled on their last faux pas they put their foot in their mouth again. And now apparently they've hired the Olive apologist as their spokesperson. I'm beginning to think he's a retired NRA mouthpiece.

Is it too soon to propose "apolivegist" as the term for a ludicrously counterproductive PR person?

[krnash]

It's just a bad way to represent your business, period. There's no "context" for sending out condescending, grouchy public remarks to your customers. Can you imagine if Criterion had handled last year's flash sale backlash in TT's manner?

"We're tired of this. To all you whiney girls out there: WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS! You'll get what you got, and if you didn't get anything, we suggest you stop crying. You're lucky to get the traffic our servers CAN support."

[swo17]

OK, here's some context: The only two titles that have sold out so fast that some customers have missed out on them are mediocre '80s horror films that TT is only deigning to release to fund harder-sell acquisitions that they care more about. As soon as one of their classic titles gets quickly devoured by eBay scalpers, I will begin to care about how blithely they dismiss customer suggestions that would limit their ability to sell as much product.

[Perkins Cobb]

"We're tired of this. To all you whiney girls out there: WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS! You'll get what you got, and if you didn't get anything, we suggest you stop crying. You're lucky to get the traffic our servers CAN support."

That would've been pretty awesome, actually. This ain't yer Tamara's Criterion any more, bitches!

[vsski]

OK, here's some context: The only two titles that have sold out so fast that some customers have missed out on them are mediocre '80s horror films that TT is only deigning to release to fund harder-sell acquisitions that they care more about. As soon as one of their classic titles gets quickly devoured by eBay scalpers, I will begin to care about how blithely they dismiss customer suggestions that would limit their ability to sell as much product.

Forgetting about personal preferences for specific titles, your argument is based on the premise that TT believes it would lose business if it restricts the number of copies available for purchase. Do you really believe Christine wouldn't be sold out by now anyhow, even if the number had been restricted to 2 per customer from the get-go?

While I realize they can do whatever they want, the whole label is supposedly a labor of love by two industry veterans to bring titles to the market that otherwise wouldn't see the light of day (at least not on BD). The majority of the titles cater to a niche market as well as a collector's market and they presumably sell some titles to maintain their cash flow. This design imo speaks to the need for maintaining good customer relationships, so reading their facebook reactions seems strange and not business savy.

Yes maybe they got caught off guard the first time with NOTLD and maybe they didn't expect Christine to sell out in a day, but this latest reaction basically says we sell our product to whoever comes first and if it's scalpers rather than fans so be it. Seems to go counter the original premise of creating the label, but maybe I'm overlooking something here.

[matrixschmatrix]

I think swo's point is that they, the label owners, don't really give a damn about the movies that have been selling out so quickly or the fans thereof- the movies they got in this game for are the ones that have like a 50/50 chance of ever making a profit.

It's probably true that they're specifically apathetic about these kinds of titles rather than totally uninterested in general, but I still don't think that reflects well on them.

[vsski]

I think swo's point is that they, the label owners, don't really give a damn about the movies that have been selling out so quickly or the fans thereof- the movies they got in this game for are the ones that have like a 50/50 chance of ever making a profit.

It's probably true that they're specifically apathetic about these kinds of titles rather than totally uninterested in general, but I still don't think that reflects well on them.

You may be right, but even if you are, the reactions on this board and elsewhere clearly show that the "fans" aren't happy and not just the ones they supposedly don't give a damn about.

[gcgiles1dollarbin]

I think swo's point is that they, the label owners, don't really give a damn about the movies that have been selling out so quickly or the fans thereof- the movies they got in this game for are the ones that have like a 50/50 chance of ever making a profit.

It's probably true that they're specifically apathetic about these kinds of titles rather than totally uninterested in general, but I still don't think that reflects well on them.

I was thinking the same thing, regarding their possible indifference toward the horror buffs. But speaking as someone who loves Bonjour Tristesse, Swamp Water and Savini's Night of the Living Dead, I recommend they reconsider this tidy compartmentalization of their customers, if this is truly their attitude. I think we all have pretty eclectic tastes and, thankfully, don't exalt one genre or era at the expense of another.

[matrixschmatrix]

Well, the other obvious point is that the horror fans that might otherwise become fans of the brand and branch out into some of their other offerings certainly aren't going to if they never wind up managing to buy their discs, or if they feel abused by the label. They're defeating the whole point of cultivating a brand in the first place.

[peerpee]

The elephant in the room is OLIVE.

They are doing *exactly* what TT are doing (releasing nice studio HD masters on Blu-ray) without any of this unnecessarily enforced "limited edition" hoop jumping and without forcing everyone to a solitary distributor with jacked-up prices.

Olive's discs are half the price and they're all in print.

[knives]

They're even beginning to slowly start adding more extras and/or pair shorter films together showing they're at least considering what critics have said.

[perkizitore]

They say they are limiting this to one copy per person this time, but I guess the people who have already purchased this won't necessarily be excluded. Also, unlike with Fright Night, we do not know how many signed copies there are; so imagine having 1000 people trying to get 100 signed copies on top of the people who will want to just order Christine! The servers will go down once again and both Christine fans and people who want to spend $100+ will be royally fucked! ](*,)

[EddieLarkin]

The elephant in the room is OLIVE.

They are doing *exactly* what TT are doing (releasing nice studio HD masters on Blu-ray) without any of this unnecessarily enforced "limited edition" hoop jumping and without forcing everyone to a solitary distributor with jacked-up prices.

Olive's discs are half the price and they're all in print.

Is it possible Olive are maybe subsidised by Paramount or something? The fact they are releasing something like 20 titles a month at this point, mostly titles that are far less popular than stuff TT is releasing, makes it hard to believe they are making enough revenue from disc sales alone. They apparently do a lot of their own HD masters too, and in the case of The Quiet Man, their own transfers. How do they afford it?

[matrixschmatrix]

I don't know that I agree that the stuff they're selling is inherently less popular- I get the impression John Wayne titles sell the same way 80s horror does, where there's a ready made audience that will buy absolutely anything.

[knives]

Yeah, a significant amount of their titles (Boogens, the Waynes, etc) hit an audience that will buy anything and even much of their more obscure stuff hits certain niches hard or is not that obscure.

[TMDaines]

They say they are limiting this to one copy per person this time, but I guess the people who have already purchased this won't necessarily be excluded. Also, unlike with Fright Night, we do not know how many signed copies there are; so imagine having 1000 people trying to get 100 signed copies on top of the people who will want to just order Christine! The servers will go down once again and both Christine fans and people who want to spend $100+ will be royally fucked! ](*,)

Presumably you can still get two, no? One normal Christine and one free signed?

[Zot!]

Although I don't think TT are handling things particularly well, I (and it seems they) are surprised that people loath the limited run concept so much. This has been used a number of times for releases of CDs. Rhino, who is a pretty big company, even has their own "handmade" line to release things that might not sell so well (including some DVDs). It seems like a reasonable business plan if done properly.

[kingofthejungle]

Does anyone else think that Twilight Time has a very middling taste in westerns?

I always seem to be disappointed with their choices, which is entirely opposite of the Noir picks they've made so far. Major Dundee is the one Sam Peckinpah film that I know I've seen, but remember absolutely nothing about. I have nothing against it, Pony Soldier, or Bite The Bullet-- but there are so many more interesting choices available in the vaults of Fox & Columbia.

The elephant in the room is OLIVE.

They are doing *exactly* what TT are doing (releasing nice studio HD masters on Blu-ray) without any of this unnecessarily enforced "limited edition" hoop jumping and without forcing everyone to a solitary distributor with jacked-up prices.

Olive's discs are half the price and they're all in print.

Agreed. Olive is great. Who can argue with Ford, Ophuls, Renoir, and McCarey on Blu-Ray for about $15 apiece?
No one has to worry about missing out on The Quiet Man due to a distributor's site crashing, or paying a scalper insane prices for *Invasion of The Body Snatchers*.
Olive's taste, price-point, and the sheer volume they release have made the TT model seem outdated and rather severe in comparison. That I can Import the wonderful MOC *Touch of Evil* Blu (thanks, btw) with 5 versions of the film, extras, a great booklet and superb packaging more cheaply than I can purchase any of the barebones TT releases domestically says everything that needs to be said about the prices forced on customers by their business model.

[Lowry_Sam]

Does anyone else think that Twilight Time has a very middling taste in westerns?

Given TT's outrageous prices, mediocre quality & lack of extras, I'm always glad to see it's usually films I have no interest in adding to my collection that are being added to their label.

Where are you finding Olive titles for $15? I've been holding off on buying many because I haven't spotted them for less than $20 (shipped).

[kingofthejungle]

Given TT's outrageous prices, mediocre quality & lack of extras, I'm always glad to see it's usually films I have no interest in adding to my collection that are being added to their label.

Where are you finding Olive titles for $15? I've been holding off on buying many because I haven't spotted them for less than $20 (shipped).

I agree about the prices, but given that Sony & Fox don't seem overly invested in making their catalog titles available on Blu-Ray, it would be nice to see an occasional western release from the likes of Mann, Boetticher, Daves, Tourneur, or Ford (I'm specifically thinking Two Rode Together).

importcds.com is the place to go for Olive Blu-Rays, they're usually $14.43 plus $1.49 shipping per item, and an additional $1.50 handling fee for the entire order - so it actually works out to a little over $16 a title.

[Zaki]

Despite the above praise for Olive, they still do not provide SDH for English speaking films, which is very disappointing. Personally, I will only consider them a serious label and start purchasing titles when they do so.

[Moe Dickstein]

The elephant in the room is OLIVE.

They are doing *exactly* what TT are doing (releasing nice studio HD masters on Blu-ray) without any of this unnecessarily enforced "limited edition" hoop jumping and without forcing everyone to a solitary distributor with jacked-up prices.

Olive's discs are half the price and they're all in print.

Nick, huge difference with TT is that they pay Fox/Sony the entire license fee upfront for their run of 3k copies. Olive is pay as you go, which is why they are madly releasing everything they can with no regard.

The other difference is with Sony you have masters from Grover Crisp who is handcuffed about catalog releases and does some amazing work, whereas Paramount doesn't seem to give a toss about catalog and hence is handing over passable masters at best.

[TMDaines]

The elephant in the room is OLIVE.

They are doing *exactly* what TT are doing (releasing nice studio HD masters on Blu-ray) without any of this unnecessarily enforced "limited edition" hoop jumping and without forcing everyone to a solitary distributor with jacked-up prices.

Olive's discs are half the price and they're all in print.

Nick, huge difference with TT is that they pay Fox/Sony the entire license fee upfront for their run of 3k copies. Olive is pay as you go, which is why they are madly releasing everything they can with no regard.

The other difference is with Sony you have masters from Grover Crisp who is handcuffed about catalog releases and does some amazing work, whereas Paramount doesn't seem to give a toss about catalog and hence is handing over passable masters at best.

I'm sure Nick knows that, as that fact has been well established here. The point he's making is that the model adopted by TT sucks for the consumer and is great for the licensor. TT claims about their model being the way forward look simply absurd. It's not a stretch to say that virtually every other label out there, who are enjoyed on this forum, offer a better value-for-money approach to distributing films. People are paying an inflated price to cater for the inefficiencies of the model and because there is no competition in terms of retailers.

[Perkins Cobb]

Some partisan sniping at this Forum (and David Hare) from the director of The First Nudie Musical.

[Matt]

"Oh no! People are expressing strong opinions on the internet!"