Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[triodelover]

Hey, they have to hustle, don't they?

[EddieLarkin]

...and yet the majority of their catalog is still available.

Which is a commentary on the quality of their catalog relative to their pricing structure, not on the existence or absence of purchase limits.

Surely it's more of a commentary on the popularity of their catalog relative to their pricing structure? Who here would argue that Night of the Living Dead '90 is worth spending $30 on whilst The Big Heat isn't? A title which is still available to purchase, nearly a year since it's been up for pre-order. Heck, even some the horror fans who bought NotLD in droves who have actually seen The Big Heat probably think the latter is the better film, but few are rushing to buy it. Not that there isn't some absolute stinkers in the catalog, but I think it's mostly solid.

[Thomas Dukenfield]

I mean, there are 36 copies on eBay right now, and it hasn't even shipped yet. That isn't exactly a scarcity, and the market will probably be even more saturated once the discs are actually in hand.

According to somebody on Blu-ray.com that has an eBay app that keeps track of this, there have been about 75 copies sold as of yesterday, and the highest one going for $132. So, it doesn't seem that plentiful considering about 2/3rds of those listed have already sold.

[kingofthejungle]

According to somebody on Blu-ray.com that has an eBay app that keeps track of this, there have been about 75 copies sold as of yesterday, and the highest one going for $132. So, it doesn't seem that plentiful considering about 2/3rds of those listed have already sold.

I would say that there are plenty of them available, but it does appear that the supply of suckers willing to pay over $100 a disc might be equally plentiful (which surprises me). Looking through the eBay history just now, I noticed that two of these "pre-orders" for Christine sold for around $60 two weeks before it went on sale at Screen Archives - so this is obviously not a rational, informed market. I guess it was presumptuous of me to assume that common sense would apply.

...and yet the majority of their catalog is still available.

Which is a commentary on the quality of their catalog relative to their pricing structure, not on the existence or absence of purchase limits.

Surely it's more of a commentary on the popularity of their catalog relative to their pricing structure? Who here would argue that Night of the Living Dead '90 is worth spending $30 on whilst The Big Heat isn't? A title which is still available to purchase, nearly a year since it's been up for pre-order. Heck, even some the horror fans who bought NotLD in droves who have actually seen The Big Heat probably think the latter is the better film, but few are rushing to buy it. Not that there isn't some absolute stinkers in the catalog, but I think it's mostly solid.

This is a good point. I was looking over the numbers of available stock on TT's catalog via the "cart trick" the other day, and the quality of a given title really bears no relation to how many copies it has managed to sell. Renoir's Swamp Water has sold just over 800 copies, while something like Bye Bye Birdie has sold over 2,500. It does seem that the noir titles have done good business, though. Only 725 copies of The Big Heat remain in stock. It could sell out within the year. Not record breaking, but well ahead of the pace of most non-horror TT catalog titles. Similarly, Experiment In Terror has sold close to 2/3rds of it's stock in the two months it's been available.

[zedz]

According to somebody on Blu-ray.com that has an eBay app that keeps track of this, there have been about 75 copies sold as of yesterday, and the highest one going for $132. So, it doesn't seem that plentiful considering about 2/3rds of those listed have already sold.

I would say that there are plenty of them available, but it does appear that the supply of suckers willing to pay over $100 a disc might be equally plentiful (which surprises me). Looking through the eBay history just now, I noticed that two of these "pre-orders" for Christine sold for around $60 two weeks before it went on sale at Screen Archives - so this is obviously not a rational, informed market. I guess it was presumptuous of me to assume that common sense would apply.

If the market for this film is that stupid, I say scalp away!

Surely nobody actually believes that, when this particular release sells out, Christine will become a lost film that they will never ever have a chance to buy a copy of again. I just can't understand the feverish excitement for a film that you know is always going to be around in some form or another.

[EddieLarkin]

Similarly, Experiment In Terror has sold close to 2/3rds of it's stock in the two months it's been available.

You can't have any faith in the cart numbers I'm afraid; right now they suggest that 1200 copies of Pony Soldier have already been sold despite it being released a week ago. I'm confident in saying that's just not possible.

I think the numbers only apply to the amount that SAE actually stock themselves, rather than the full 3000. Typically, half of the print run goes to SAE and the other half sits in a warehouse until SAE need more. So Experiment in Terror has probably only sold around 500 copies.

[kingofthejungle]

You can't have any faith in the cart numbers I'm afraid; right now they suggest that 1200 copies of Pony Soldier have already been sold despite it being released a week ago. I'm confident in saying that's just not possible.

I think the numbers only apply to the amount that SAE actually stock themselves, rather than the full 3000. Typically, half of the print run goes to SAE and the other half sits in a warehouse until SAE need more. So Experiment in Terror has probably only sold around 500 copies.

I know that's been the speculation, but if that were the case, why do some titles (Roots Of Heaven, Bite The Bullet) show over 2000 copies available? It doesn't make sense to me they would hold more copies of those in stock than newer titles like Pony Soldier or Experiment In Terror. In general, the cart numbers seem roughly feasible to me.

[EddieLarkin]

I think they mentioned the half/half rule themselves on Facebook, but yes, the fact that some numbers are above 2000 throws that into doubt. They had this to say about the cart trick on Blu-ray.com:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php ... ost6843953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And, as we have said about a million times already, the cart is rarely accurate. Occasionally during the pre-order stage, the numbers are useful indicators in anticipation of a quick sellout, but in the post-release stage the cart is always wrong. For example, since TT knows exactly how many units are sold on any given title, we can say categorically that there is no way that 639 copies of THE EGYPTIAN on Blu-ray still remain...unless of course, SAE are making their own, and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

On an unrelated note, I found this quote whilst looking and I thought it interesting:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php ... ost6468824" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is very gratifying that collectors such as yourself enjoy and appreciate Rapture, The Left Hand of God, The Wayward Bus, The Sound and the Fury, etc.
Those are the movies we signed up for when we started this uncertain enterprise. This is what we thought TT was going to be all about, and it is, we are, but as simple pragmatism has confirmed we have to dot the board with a few genre, more populist titles as well because we couldn't make a go of it without them. The arithmetic (as Bill Clinton would say), just isn't there. So, here we find ourselves stuck between two polar opposites as you eloquently defined--the post-80s and the pre-70s, and as we are in the process of locking in enough titles of each side of the coin to last us for at least another three years, may the loving and the hating of everything we do continue for a bit longer...

Several times in the past year I've received a late-night phone call--at the other end of the line is a crusty British voice, usually well-oiled by a few stiff ones. The conversation goes something like this: "Nick, John Guillermin here. Had some friends round. We ran Rapture again. It looks f***ing marvelous. Can't believe this bloody film is on Blu-ray." Click.

And that's pretty cool.

I imagine that is rather gratifying, personal thank you calls from the director. Anyone on the fence about Rapture should pick it up as it is a bloody great little film

[mfunk9786]

Hey, if you could do me a favor and stop intriguing me over films with barebones Blu-ray releases that cost $35 shipped, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! \:D/

[McCrutchy]

#-o

Posted today on Facebook:

As we said earlier...there have never been any purchase limits at the pre-order stage on any TT title until Christine..SAE were helping by limiting to 10 per person. Do you honestly think that the majority of people bought 10 copies? If so, you are sorely mistaken. But as so many consumers have complained about the 10 copy limit, we will most likely just go back to no limits on purchases at all.

Something tells me these guys never worked in customer service...now they're making veiled threats to customers because they're pissed that people are pissed? I know "the customer is always right" routine is old and tired, but whatever happened to keeping your mouth shut?

[dwk]

Jesus. It would not hurt them at all to limit it to 1 or 2 copies during the first weekend of pre-orders.

[warren oates]

As tone deaf as Applebee's.

And wait, so TT now says more consumers complained about the 10 copy limit than complained that the limit wasn't lower, like one or two? That's a weird assertion to make so boldly without offering any numbers to back it up.

[McCrutchy]

As tone deaf as Applebee's.

Since you brought this up, I can't stand the new Applebee's ads where a chef will get all excited about a dish or ingredient and start to explain it detail (which is something I'd like to see much more of in restaurant ads), and then the narrator will cut them off saying that the audience only needs to know how "great" the food is. I don't like to be talked down to like that.

[captveg]

And wait, so TT now says more consumers complained about the 10 copy limit than complained that the limit wasn't lower, like one or two?

Yeah, that makes no sense to me either. The only people who need to be able to buy 5+ copies on pre-order are eBay scalpers, plain and simple.

Sheesh.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

From My Own Business By William S. Burroughs
"....... a wise old black faggot said to me years ago: 'Some people are just shits, darling.' "

[mfunk9786]

It's a (I can't believe I'm going to use this word) very hipster-y mentality. There's a brewpub that recently opened near me that has this same approach: We consider ourselves some kind of artisan experts on our fine, fine products, so if anyone points out something we're doing wrong, we turn it around on them and make them feel uninformed and foolish for pointing out that, say, something was served with the wrong ingredients or a beer wasn't served correctly. We're the experts, and you should be THRILLED to get to purchase our product (because we're good at imitating the real experts with our often subpar imitations)

[krnash]

These snarky replies by TT have honestly turned me off of the whole brand.

[Graham]

These snarky replies by TT have honestly turned me off of the whole brand.

Yeah, me too. I'd love to know who the dick writing those replies is.

[Props55]

Tone deaf indeed! Just when you think the dust has settled on their last faux pas they put their foot in their mouth again. And now apparently they've hired the Olive apologist as their spokesperson. I'm beginning to think he's a retired NRA mouthpiece.

[Zot!]

I LOVE the soap opera between this company and it's customers. They resent that they have to release horror movies, and the horror obsessives are notoriously fussy and impossible to please. The mutual animosity is magnificent. I honestly don't think they knew this level of scrutiny was forthcoming. Anyways, it makes for great reading.

[EddieLarkin]

There are no excuses for this sort of attitude, but some people seem confused about what TT are getting upset over. They're not saying that people complained that there was a limit, indeed only that people thought it was too high and should be set at one, two, five etc. Their point is no one was complaining when scalpers could buy as many copies as they wanted, whether it be 10 copies, 50 copies, 100 copies like they could with NOTLD. When TT, for the first time, limit the amount of copies that can be bought by scalpers, they are inundated with complaints that the limit is too high. Despite it being 300 times lower than the previous limit (i.e., no limit at all)!

These snarky replies by TT have honestly turned me off of the whole brand.

Yeah, me too. I'd love to know who the dick writing those replies is.

Almost certainly Nick Redman, since he is behind the TT accounts on forums like Blu-ray.com and HTF. If you want help envisioning his snarky replies then you can see him here in this video:
http://www.bafta.org/losangeles/news/be ... 29,BA.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[swo17]

Yes, that post quoted earlier is a bit tone deaf, but where is the soap opera between TT and its customers (other than the one-sided one here)? Unless they've been deleting Facebook comments, I don't see one single voice of dissent following the referenced comment (in fact, one person has even "liked" it). Furthermore, unlike Criterion, TT seem to be very talkative on their Facebook page, with almost all of their communication suggesting a healthy rapport with their customers. You miss this context when you cherry pick one thoughtless comment from their page.

[warren oates]

There are no excuses for this sort of attitude, but some people seem confused about what TT are getting upset over. They're not saying that people complained that there was a limit, indeed only that people thought it was too high and should be set at one, two, five etc. Their point is no one was complaining when scalpers could buy as many copies as they wanted, whether it be 10 copies, 50 copies, 100 copies like they could with NOTLD. When TT, for the first time, limit the amount of copies that can be bought by scalpers, they are inundated with complaints that the limit is too high. Despite it being 300 times lower than the previous limit (i.e., no limit at all)!

Yeah, but that's almost like saying "Before there was a complaint box, we got zero complaints. So we're just going to remove the complaint box." It's ludicrously disingenuous. They know why they put that limit there for Christine and they know why their customers, including some of us who don't even care about that specific release are complaining: Because TT are beginning to get access to increasingly popular titles relative to their previous output, yet they are still restricted to the same total amount of discs and none of us want to get boned out of The Driver or Major Dundee or whatever else is on the way just because we might to be working when that particular land rush whistle blows and the eBay scalpers are a few clicks quicker with their no-limit preorders.

[Zot!]

Yes, that post quoted earlier is a bit tone deaf, but where is the soap opera between TT and its customers (other than the one-sided one here)?

Blu-Ray.com threads on TT are almost entirely negative, and typically less "refined" than our discussion. I think they get a lot more of the horror afficiandos over there. Christine BD alone has 199 pages (!) worth of commentary.

[EddieLarkin]

Yeah, but that's almost like saying "Before there was a complaint box, we got zero complaints. So we're just going to remove the complaint box." It's ludicrously disingenuous. They know why they put that limit there for Christine and they know why their customers, including some of us who don't even care about that specific release are complaining: Because TT are beginning to get access to increasingly popular titles relative to their previous output, yet they are still restricted to the same total amount of discs and none of us want to get boned out of The Driver or Major Dundee or whatever else is on the way just because we might to be working when that particular land rush whistle blows and the eBay scalpers are a few clicks quicker with their no-limit preorders.

Yes, I certainly agree their comment on not having a limit again is both childish and stupid. And for any future big 80s horror releases, I hope they do impose or 2 copy limit from the start. But there is just no way lack of limits on titles like Major Dundee or The Driver are anything to worry about. They will both be around for months.