Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[swo17]

There are already "copies" for sale on eBay for $80-100, despite it not being released for several weeks. Seems to me that Sony should have been flexible with their run limits. Christine could have probably sold 10k even at that price and lack of distribution. Apart from fans of the actual movie, there are also Carpenter and King completists out there (I'd probably pick one up myself if it was like $20).

Except that a big contributor to the buying frenzy was the collectability afforded by the limited run. If this had been just a run-of-the-mill Blu-ray release of Christine, it would not have sold 3,000 copies yesterday, even if the price had been more like $20.

[Thomas Dukenfield]

Except that a big contributor to the buying frenzy was the collectability afforded by the limited run. If this had been just a run-of-the-mill Blu-ray release of Christine, it would not have sold 3,000 copies yesterday, even if the price had been more like $20.

No, but I think they could have sold 8,000-10,000 over a year or so, but certainly not at that pace. Even a run of 5,000 could have gone pretty quickly.

[NilbogSavant]

This is why I don't bother buying any of their titles. I don't see much of an argument against downloading their catalogue if the titles sell in order to line the pockets of some eBay entrepreneurs. TT has already made their money, no reason for people to get reamed in order to acquire a legitimate copy.

[matrixschmatrix]

You realize only like two of their titles have sold out, right?

[Thomas Dukenfield]

Previously quickest sell out was The Night of the Living Dead (1990), which took 8 days.

Didn't Fright Night go faster?

NOTLD went 8 days from the time of the pre-order, where as Fright Night sold out within 6-7 days of its release date (so maybe 5 or 6 weeks since the pre-order date).

[McCrutchy]

Now see, this really pisses me off:

You know, we are really getting tired of this nonsense. Our distributors, SAE are paid by us, and the other labels they represent, to sell our product. SAE has no responsibility as to how many they sell, or to whom--their job is to sell. Understand? SAE were trying to help yesterday by limiting the copies to 10 per person...they don't have to do it! All decisions are discretionary--no=one has a divine right to anything.

These guys have a record day, and instead of being gracious and courteous, apologizing to those who missed out and wishing them better luck with future pre-orders, they are moaning about comments on their Facebook page, specifically about why there was ever a limit of 10 copies, and how that obviously affected the speed of the sell out.

I know it's their "right" to be annoyed and that they did nothing wrong yesterday, but they could have done things better if they really cared enough about giving everyone a fair chance to get the disc. They had to anticipate that Christine would sell like hotcakes, and the smart thing to do for their customers was to impose the 2 copy limit right from the start. They knew the title would sell out, did it really matter if it took seven hours or one weekend? Not really. They had plenty of previous knowledge that their OOP titles are resold on eBay, and had every reason to assume that copies would end up in the hands of scalpers. They also knew full well that 99% of buyers do not need 10 copies for any reason other than to resell them later, so when they say that either they (or SAE, six of one, half a dozen of the other) "were trying to help yesterday by limiting the copies to 10 per person", that is, frankly, utter nonsense. And then, that they have the gall to complain at potential customers...that's just sickening.

[swo17]

I agree that they could have more tact on Facebook but how exactly could they have known that it would sell out as fast as it did? These sales were unprecedented, and there was no doubt a snowball effect as people that would have otherwise been in no rush (e.g. me) made sure to lock in a purchase.

There's a fine balance to be had between purely worrying about your bottom line sales and being sensitive to your customers (at the expense of your bottom line). The fact that they imposed decreasing limits throughout the sale shows that they recognized this as the sale was happening, and I suspect that they will handle things a little differently from the outset the next time they expect a similar response to one of their releases.

[EddieLarkin]

I think the point they are trying to make is that because SAE are the ones actually selling the product, it's up to them how they do so, not TT. TT may have an "ethical" obligation to take steps to get the product to fans instead of scalpers, but SAE do not.

So SAE make the unprecedented decision to LIMIT the amount of copies that could be purchased to 10 (a decision they are under no obligation to make), and yet people complain that this some how fuels the scalper market, despite it being a LIMIT. Before Christine, any TT disc could be purchased at an unlimited amount; no doubt some arseholes bought 25, 50, maybe 100 copies of NOTLD last year, and with Christine being even more popular, this was likely to repeat itself. SAE helped to curb it and they still get shit.

[stroszeck]

Damn it are you kidding me? I was all set to put my pre-order in today. I don't own any TT titles, but this was ridiculous. I'm a HUGE Carpenter fan and thats the only reason I wanted to get the blu ray was to upgrade! Is there any chance that they would print more blu rays seeing as how the pre-order deman was so overwhelming??? I mean, it could only make them more money..

[Thomas Dukenfield]

You realize only like two of their titles have sold out, right?

FWIW, it's five so far: Christine, NOTLD '90, Mysterious Island, Journey to the Center of the Earth, and Fright Night. Bye Bye Birdie and The Egyptian are down to less than 500 apparently.

If anyone is curious, there are still 1800 copies of The Fury available.

[McCrutchy]

I agree that they could have more tact on Facebook but how exactly could they have known that it would sell out as fast as it did? These sales were unprecedented, and there was no doubt a snowball effect as people that would have otherwise been in no rush (e.g. me) made sure to lock in a purchase.

There's a fine balance to be had between purely worrying about your bottom line sales and being sensitive to your customers (at the expense of your bottom line). The fact that they imposed decreasing limits throughout the sale shows that they recognized this as the sale was happening, and I suspect that they will handle things a little differently from the outset the next time they expect a similar response to one of their releases.

Their previous big sell out was not as anticipated and went in eight days, which itself was exponentially quicker than the fastest sellout before that, which lasted thirty-five days. I'm just saying that, as a rule, when they have a title they think could sell out (and again, here they had every reason to think it would), the smart thing to do is to limit the title first and see what demand is like. They could have always increased the limit later. I agree that they were right to impose limits, and I would certainly hope that they change their tactics (again) next time around, but it almost seems like they are a little slow on the uptake. A lot of potential customers are now faced with paying exorbitant prices on the second-hand market, or waiting, possibly three years or more, for another Blu-ray edition, so I can certainly see where those people are extremely frustrated. And as for their bottom line, the title was going to sell out, one way or another, so they were going to make their money no matter what, and they either had to know this, or are simply ignorant, which would not surprise me, given the debacles over some of their titles.

And again, I don't mind if they want to tick people off like that, but then, at least take the fallout with couth when it comes.

[McCrutchy]

And it gets better. This was posted less than an hour ago:

There may still be a chance for some of those who want a copy of CHRISTINE--in the next few weeks a limited quantity of *signed* by Keith Gordon copies will be given away as part of a TT purchase promotion.

You know what? I've said this before, but after all this crap, I am officially done as a customer with this label. They can sell their stuff however they want, but I won't be party to having stunts pulled on paying customers.

Think about this now. They either:

Broke their 3,000 unit rule and pressed more, but how much more? I thought that was a no-no--

or (and more likely)

They did not sell all 3,000 copies last night, and are deliberately holding a number back for this promo, which they have conveniently announced after the expected sell out of the title, and which will require the customer to buy something else (as yet unknown) in order to get a copy.

I don't care what nonsense you use to rationalize (and it can be rationalized), but to me, this just isn't the way to sell a movie, period.

[swo17]

It will probably be like what they did for Fright Night (and possibly other titles?) where if you spend $100 (i.e. buy three other TT titles) they throw in a free signed copy of the rare promotional item. I just want to make sure you're aware that you're complaining about something that is free.

[Finch]

All this nonsense makes me think twice about pre-ordering The Driver and Leave Her To Heaven. I haven't purchased The Big Heat as yet and with the French BD forthcoming, I think I'll get that instead, and likely for somewhat less money. Also, TT's covers are absolutely appalling. Seeing as Second Sight are going to release The Lone Riders after Southern Comfort, I wouldn't bet against The Driver being their third Walter Hill title down the line. Maybe Eureka, if not MoC, could be tipped of about Leave Her To Heaven...

[knives]

It will probably be like what they did for Fright Night (and possibly other titles?) where if you spend $100 (i.e. buy three other TT titles) they throw in a free signed copy of the rare promotional item. I just want to make sure you're aware that you're complaining about something that is free.

I believe that also did it for Journey to the Center of the Earth.

[Jeff]

Think about this now. They either:

Broke their 3,000 unit rule and pressed more, but how much more? I thought that was a no-no--

or (and more likely)

They did not sell all 3,000 copies last night, and are deliberately holding a number back for this promo

They didn't press more. It's more than a "no-no." It would be a contract violation that would put them out of business.

I'm sure they just held back 100 or so for promotional purposes. They never said, "There will be precisely 3,000 copies of Christine for sale on February 15." We just happen to know that is how many their contract allows them to press. Whether they choose to sell all 3,000 or sell 2,900 and give the rest away is entirely up to them, no?

[triodelover]

It will probably be like what they did for Fright Night (and possibly other titles?) where if you spend $100 (i.e. buy three other TT titles) they throw in a free signed copy of the rare promotional item. I just want to make sure you're aware that you're complaining about something that is free.

Not exactly. You have to buy other titles to get it. If those titles were ones you would have bought anyway, you could call this marketing sleight-of-hand free. But if you only want Christine and you're trying to convince yourself to buy three titles you may not want at TT's price just to get Christine, that's not what I'd call free. Paying TT's prices for three titles you're lukewarm about (or worse) in order to get one you want looks like a great deal for Twilight Time. Not so much for the consumer. It's only a bargain if it's something you wanted in the first place. These people make Olive look like a customer-focused outfit.

[swo17]

Not exactly. You have to buy other titles to get it.

A fact I already acknowledged. You're right though, that target audience of people who love Christine enough to feel slighted the day after it sells out but not enough to be on top of it for the time that it was on sale, and who like the TT label enough to want this particular title but not enough to want anything else they've done are getting royally screwed here.

[triodelover]

Not exactly. You have to buy other titles to get it.

A fact I already acknowledged. You're right though, that target audience of people who love Christine enough to feel slighted the day after it sells out but not enough to be on top of it for the time that it was on sale, and who like the TT label enough to want this particular title but not enough to want anything else they've done are getting royally screwed here.

Do I detect a note of sarcasm? You posit an extreme case without precedence in TT's history. I feel fairly certain that most who wanted the title felt that they could wait until Day 2 to order it. Nothing else sold out this quickly. And I don't think one has to like the label to want a particular title. The TT catalog just isn't that impressive. In fact, it seems that the same two titles - Swamp Water and The Big Heat - get the lion's share of the discussion around here. So it's not beyond the pale that a Carpenter fan might struggle to come up with 3 titles he actually wanted at the price at which TT sells them. Like I said, if you find 3 titles that you would have bought anyway at the TT price point, it's a good deal. Otherwise, no. (But then you're a capitalist apologist and I'm a raging pinko, so we're not likely to agree. )

[J M Powell]

I believe that also did it for Journey to the Center of the Earth.

The "Journey" promo wasn't a freebie. Rather, the first 200 (I think) orders received a signed copy instead of the unsigned version.

For purely selfish reasons, I'm glad this debacle happened with "Christine," a film I don't care about, even if the guys who run Twilight Time are moronically refusing to see it for what it is: the first step toward the eventual ruination of their business model. The studios will be sure to hold on more tightly to cult films like "Christine" and "Fright Night" from now on. I think we'll see the studios TT has licensed from begin to move 70s-90s genre titles to an online-sales-only in-house basis a la Warner Archive's recent blu-ray initiative, leaving TT nothing but dreck like "Beloved Infidel" -- and as the sell-outs dry up, so will sales of all TT's less appealing titles.

In the meantime, though, this disaster lets me know that I need to be waiting at the keyboard with a quick trigger finger when "Major Dundee" goes up for sale.

[swo17]

I feel fairly certain that most who wanted the title felt that they could wait until Day 2 to order it.

It was well publicized here, on TT's Facebook page, and presumably on other forums throughout the sale that remaining stock was dwindling. I get that there are some people that may not have been able to get on a computer during the five hours that this was on sale, but those are the only people that I feel sorry for.

As for the promotional offer, this is not meant to be a "you're right, guys, we screwed up, raise your hand if you want a free Christine Blu-ray and Lester over there will pass them out." It's a free promotional offer of extremely limited quantity, so of course they're going to favor their most loyal customers with it.

[warren oates]

I'm a bit baffled that anyone here is defending Twilight Time's handling of this release or its subsequent FB whining about disappointed fans' responses to the quick sellout. They've repeatedly professed that the label for them is a labor of love, a chance to connect movie mad fans like themselves with HD copies of films that might otherwise not be released in the Blu-ray format. And though they aim to break even with each release, their primary motivation has never been the almighty dollar. In a slightly different context, somebody like comedian Louis C.K. has repeatedly demonstrated that it's entirely possible to minimize bulk purchases and aftermarket price gouging by ticket scalpers and maximize value for his fans with just a little extra effort and attention to the sales process. And what he's doing is like 3D chess compared to what Twilight Time would have to do to reign in the eBay profiteers.

[Gregory]

This little controversy is stirring up some hilarious stuff like someone calling someone else out as a capitalist apologist (if this blu-ray were a loaf of bread it would be a different situation) and pronouncements of "disaster" and "ruination." Even funnier will be when Sony watches this one-day sellout and decides to release it in the UK, and it goes on sale for £10 or less, possibly with extra content.

[triodelover]

This little controversy is stirring up some hilarious stuff like someone calling someone else out as a capitalist apologist ...

You do understand that was meant as a joke?

[Gregory]

Yeah, that's why I said it was hilarious—as a gibe about how carried away these kinds of discussions can get. My loaf of bread aside was directed at those full of pure moral indignation over this, present company excluded—I've seen discussions of this on a few other sites.