Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[EddieLarkin]

Yes, currently 728. I had an order of Cover Girl, Pal Joey and Bite the Bullet to make anyway so I stuck Christine on, even though I can't remember if I like it or not. Worst case scenario I make a profit on it later.

[swo17]

Yes, I just forked over $35 for a copy of a film I've never seen, knowing that if I decide afterward that I don't want to keep it, I can still likely sell it for a hefty profit. What a terrible business model this company is using.

[Feego]

Christine is now sold out.

EDIT: See captveg's post below.

[captveg]

Previously quickest sell out was The Night of the Living Dead (1990), which took 8 days.

Sony is probably kicking themselves for handing over Christine, while Twilight just paid a ton of bills with this release.

Sony has started to schedule some of their titles for non-US release (The Blue Lagoon, As Good as It Gets), so if those are region free I can see Christine following sooner rather than later.

[captveg]

OK, it looks like someone accidentally had an order of 244 go through which they've now corrected. About 200 copies remain.

[Feego]

Well, I was wondering how they sold out that quickly. I was tempted, but I just have no interest in that title. Instead I pre-ordered The Fury (a title I've really been waiting for) and also went for The Big Heat and Bonjour Tristesse.

I do hope Mysterious Island makes its way back to Blu somehow. I'm kicking myself for not picking it up when it was available.

[warren oates]

Still, by any measure 2700ish copies of a Twilight Time release in just a few hours is ludicrous speed. Should we be worried about any of the other upcoming titles selling out this quickly?

[scotty2]

I'm on a hair trigger for Major Dundee, though it probably will not sell out.

[captveg]

Still, by any measure 2700ish copies of a Twilight Time release in just a few hours is ludicrous speed. Should we be worried about any of the other upcoming titles selling out this quickly?

I have some worry about The Driver, but I doubt it goes within one day, let alone 5 hours. Perhaps if they do end up releasing the The Blob (1988).

[McCrutchy]

Appears to be gone for good now. That took less than 8 hours and brought something like $90,000 or more for TT and Sony. Of course, that's before any costs, but still, I'm certain they would not have made that much selling an unlimited amount of copies for a reasonable price.

(Full disclosure: I got one copy.)

[gcgiles1dollarbin]

Yes, I just forked over $35 for a copy of a film I've never seen, knowing that if I decide afterward that I don't want to keep it, I can still likely sell it for a hefty profit. What a terrible business model this company is using.

I know this has worked out well for TT--and bully for them--but something about this scalper's market gives me a queasy feeling, as I imagine it drawing the kind of unsavory people who show up first thing in the morning at the white elephant sale launching verbal snot and throwing elbows in front of the record bin. I'm curious what percentage of the total went to resellers; I don't think the limit at point of sale prevented certain folks from stocking up. A sinister part of me hopes that the percentage is high, creating a false impression of demand, and that some speculator with a hundred copies gets stuck with them. (mwah hah hah.) As for the movie, Christine is fair; I remember mostly being impressed by the uncrumpling car effects in such a pre-digital era. Not sure why this is such a barnburner for TT; I guess Carpenter + King + genre trumps whatever merits an individual film may or may not have. (I say this as a big fan of Halloween, The Fog, and, above all else, The Thing.)

[McCrutchy]

I know this has worked out well for TT--and bully for them--but something about this scalper's market gives me a queasy feeling, as I imagine it drawing the kind of unsavory people who show up first thing in the morning at the white elephant sale launching verbal snot and throwing elbows in front of the record bin. I'm curious what percentage of the total went to resellers; I don't think the limit at point of sale prevented certain folks from stocking up. A sinister part of me hopes that the percentage is high, creating a false impression of demand, and that some speculator with a hundred copies gets stuck with them. (mwah hah hah.) As for the movie, Christine is fair; I remember mostly being impressed by the uncrumpling car effects in such a pre-digital era. Not sure why this is such a barnburner for TT; I guess Carpenter + King + genre trumps whatever merits an individual film may or may not have. (I say this as a big fan of Halloween, The Fog, and, above all else, The Thing.)

I'm not clear on all the details, as I got my order in with ~350 copies remaining, but it seems that a limit of 10 was introduced when 1500 copies remained, and then a limit of 2 when 500 remained. So my thinking is that a significant number of these went to scalpers. eBay auctions appeared even before all 3,000 had been sold off.

[Rupert Pupkin]

so Christine was sold out in just a few hours ? I hope that 3000 are J.Carpenter's fans and will keep their copy, but my guess is that behind this number there are some ebay retailers behind...
I hope that it will find its way through UK or Germany or France and be released on blu-ray here...

I wouldn't like to miss Body Double if it was in Twilight Time catalog....

stupid question : did they have announced several days before the day when the pre-order for "Christine" will start ? or did the pre-order started "out of the blue"?

Mind you, "The Driver" is planned to be released but it still not in pre-order status. I don't think that it will be sold out in a few hours like "Christine" 5I think that "Body Double" could do...) but I wouldn't like to miss it. And I can not pre-order it. Do they announce when they will put this title in pre-order status ? Thanks.

[dwk]

They announce the pre-order date well in advance on their facebook page. And, I think, they almost always put their pre-orders up on a Friday, about a month before the release date.

[Adam X]

and you don't need to be on f******k to look at their page either.
they mentioned on 12th February what time the pre-orders would go live, also - their site crashed at that time, which I figure can't be a coincidence.
Glad I got up early for Christine, though I can easily see it being released internationally - the one bonus with the Twilight Time release, I'd imagine, being the Isolated Score.
Hopefully, if it is Body Double they've hinted at, they can port the SE extras like they did for Christine.

[captveg]

I know this has worked out well for TT--and bully for them--but something about this scalper's market gives me a queasy feeling, as I imagine it drawing the kind of unsavory people who show up first thing in the morning at the white elephant sale launching verbal snot and throwing elbows in front of the record bin. I'm curious what percentage of the total went to resellers; I don't think the limit at point of sale prevented certain folks from stocking up. A sinister part of me hopes that the percentage is high, creating a false impression of demand, and that some speculator with a hundred copies gets stuck with them. (mwah hah hah.) As for the movie, Christine is fair; I remember mostly being impressed by the uncrumpling car effects in such a pre-digital era. Not sure why this is such a barnburner for TT; I guess Carpenter + King + genre trumps whatever merits an individual film may or may not have. (I say this as a big fan of Halloween, The Fog, and, above all else, The Thing.)

I'm not clear on all the details, as I got my order in with ~350 copies remaining, but it seems that a limit of 10 was introduced when 1500 copies remained, and then a limit of 2 when 500 remained. So my thinking is that a significant number of these went to scalpers. eBay auctions appeared even before all 3,000 had been sold off.

The preorder started with 3000 copies w/ limit to 10 per customer. It went to 2 per customer at either 1000 or 1500. Either way, IMO it should be limit 2 through the entire preorder time before release date, but I got my single copy, so at least I'm good.

[Graham]

The preorder started with 3000 copies w/ limit to 10 per customer. It went to 2 per customer at either 1000 or 1500. Either way, IMO it should be limit 2 through the entire preorder time before release date, but I got my single copy, so at least I'm good.

Totally agree. Nobody needs more than two copies, apart from those wanting to resell for profit of course.

[Emak-Bakia]

Yes, I just forked over $35 for a copy of a film I've never seen, knowing that if I decide afterward that I don't want to keep it, I can still likely sell it for a hefty profit. What a terrible business model this company is using.

I know this has worked out well for TT--and bully for them--but something about this scalper's market gives me a queasy feeling, as I imagine it drawing the kind of unsavory people who show up first thing in the morning at the white elephant sale launching verbal snot and throwing elbows in front of the record bin. I'm curious what percentage of the total went to resellers; I don't think the limit at point of sale prevented certain folks from stocking up. A sinister part of me hopes that the percentage is high, creating a false impression of demand, and that some speculator with a hundred copies gets stuck with them. (mwah hah hah.) As for the movie, Christine is fair; I remember mostly being impressed by the uncrumpling car effects in such a pre-digital era. Not sure why this is such a barnburner for TT; I guess Carpenter + King + genre trumps whatever merits an individual film may or may not have. (I say this as a big fan of Halloween, The Fog, and, above all else, The Thing.)

I feel like the percentage going to resellers has to be fairly high, depending on how you define reseller. I'm not trying to demonize anyone, but it seems to me that even swo's decision to purchase is motivated largely by profit. I've been casually following Twilight Time's release of Christine since its announcement (mostly just by reading comments on their Facebook page) and I get the impression that a lot of people were of the mindset that Twilight Time + horror = instant sellout and big resell bucks. I mean, I love Carpenter, but I recall Christine being one of his lesser efforts. I think a lot of people really need to take a step back and think about the value of their money. $35 is a hell of a price tag for a single movie. When I'm about to make a purchase like that, I try to consider the other things I can get for the same amount. About the time the pre-orders went live yesterday for the new Twilight Time titles, I instead placed an importcds order for the Mary Pickford Rags & Riches set, The Quiet Man and The Lost Films Of Herschell Gordon Lewis, all on blu for just $20 more (shipping included) than the cost of a single mediocre Twilight Time release.

I've never studied economics, but I get the impression that the demand is, as you suggest, a false one. I have difficulty justifying paying $35 for Christine, but some people are going to pay double or triple that! Are there really that many people out there who truly love that movie that much? They must have deeper pockets than I. I don't mean to sound gloomy, because if there are fans who love Christine that much, that's great and I hope all of them got a copy. I've got a feeling, though, that some of these inflated Twilight Time prices are mostly just a bubble that's got to burst at some point.

[captveg]

Hopefully this is the title that a lot of douchebags are stuck with 9 copies that they cant sell for a profit, thereby reducing the crazyness that occurred for the one-day preorder sellout the next time a vintage horror title comes out.

[swo17]

I'm not trying to demonize anyone, but it seems to me that even swo's decision to purchase is motivated largely by profit.

Despite how my post might have read, my purchase was not at all motivated by profit. More like fear of being gouged in the future should I eventually decide this is something I want to own. I love The Thing, so I'm willing to give this a chance, and the $35 price tag becomes easier to swallow knowing that I shouldn't have much of a problem getting that back if I decide it's not worth owning after seeing it. While it would be nice to make a profit in reselling it, I'll be perfectly happy just breaking even on the deal. And if I decide I want to keep it, I was never going to get it for anything less than what I paid, so I feel like a responsible shopper in that sense.

NB: I bought only one copy.

[dwk]

Twilight Time posted the following on the Home Theater Forum

Guys, first of all, SAE are our distributors...they handle all sales which is why we pay them for that service. And the key word here, is "distributors" -- they are not in business to make sure that all fans of CHRISTINE get a copy, they are in business to sell TT product, as well as all as product from all the other labels they handle, to whoever wants it. There were NO limits on how many copies could be sold per person on previous TT titles until the 500 remaining amount was reached. SAE did help fans with CHRISTINE by agreeing to limit to 10 per customer from the beginning. Please remember these are discretionary decisions -- no-one has a divine right to anything.

[gcgiles1dollarbin]

Despite how my post might have read, my purchase was not at all motivated by profit. More like fear of being gouged in the future should I eventually decide this is something I want to own. I love The Thing, so I'm willing to give this a chance, and the $35 price tag becomes easier to swallow knowing that I shouldn't have much of a problem getting that back if I decide it's not worth owning after seeing it. While it would be nice to make a profit in reselling it, I'll be perfectly happy just breaking even on the deal. And if I decide I want to keep it, I was never going to get it for anything less than what I paid, so I feel like a responsible shopper in that sense.

NB: I bought only one copy.

That was my bad, quoting you before my description of a "scalper's market." In no way, shape, or form do I consider you a profiteering scoundrel sitting on a mountain of shrink-wrapped copies, rubbing your hands together greedily. It was just poor juxtaposition on my part.

[Thomas Dukenfield]

I know this has worked out well for TT--and bully for them--but something about this scalper's market gives me a queasy feeling, as I imagine it drawing the kind of unsavory people who show up first thing in the morning at the white elephant sale launching verbal snot and throwing elbows in front of the record bin. I'm curious what percentage of the total went to resellers; I don't think the limit at point of sale prevented certain folks from stocking up. A sinister part of me hopes that the percentage is high, creating a false impression of demand, and that some speculator with a hundred copies gets stuck with them. (mwah hah hah.) As for the movie, Christine is fair; I remember mostly being impressed by the uncrumpling car effects in such a pre-digital era. Not sure why this is such a barnburner for TT; I guess Carpenter + King + genre trumps whatever merits an individual film may or may not have. (I say this as a big fan of Halloween, The Fog, and, above all else, The Thing.)

There are already "copies" for sale on eBay for $80-100, despite it not being released for several weeks. Seems to me that Sony should have been flexible with their run limits. Christine could have probably sold 10k even at that price and lack of distribution. Apart from fans of the actual movie, there are also Carpenter and King completists out there (I'd probably pick one up myself if it was like $20).

On second thought, if the TT contracts are indeed for three years, this could just be a way for Sony to test the market on certain titles. If they see that certain TT titles sold out quickly, they could release those themselves after the contracts expire.

[Perkins Cobb]

Twilight Time posted the following on the Home Theater Forum

Guys, first of all, SAE are our distributors...they handle all sales which is why we pay them for that service. And the key word here, is "distributors" -- they are not in business to make sure that all fans of CHRISTINE get a copy, they are in business to sell TT product, as well as all as product from all the other labels they handle, to whoever wants it. There were NO limits on how many copies could be sold per person on previous TT titles until the 500 remaining amount was reached. SAE did help fans with CHRISTINE by agreeing to limit to 10 per customer from the beginning. Please remember these are discretionary decisions -- no-one has a divine right to anything.

This is the first thing they've said or done that strikes me as really dickish. If their business model is based on limited printings sold at collectors' prices then, yeah, they do kind of have an ethical obligation to try and get those copies into the hands of the niche clientele they're courting.

[Perkins Cobb]

Previously quickest sell out was The Night of the Living Dead (1990), which took 8 days.

Didn't Fright Night go faster?