The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Cold Bishop]

Even if it was all-inclusive, I still don't know if I'd buy La Chienne as a film noir. It really has a completely different attitude and tone than the Lang (which is patently film noir). La Bête humaine and La Nuit de Carrefour? Sure. But La Chienne is something else.

[Tribe]

Same thing with Noir. If you want to argue that it's an exclusively American phenomena you have to give up a lot of stuff since I can't conceive of a good argument that excludes La Chienne, but keeps Scarlet Street. Only the circular logic argument of Noir must be American really seems to keep one without the other and that frankly is a poor argument.

And that is exactly the problem with noir. It's something of an historical accident created after the fact. And it's so ingrained at this point that it's beyond any re-interpretation. I can accept that...but as you note no "good argument" justifies the limitation.

[matrixschmatrix]

I'd actually be more comfortable with the half dozen thing than saying it's an Italian phenomena since that uses falsifiable evidence and generally works with the scientific method. In all seriousness I don't see how you could include any Rossellini except maybe Paisan into neorealism and exclude Goodbye, Solo for instance. Taking out the balleyhoo from the Italian pictures makes more sense to me if you want to genuinely call it such a short term country specific phenomena. Same thing with Noir. If you want to argue that it's an exclusively American phenomena you have to give up a lot of stuff since I can't conceive of a good argument that excludes La Chienne, but keeps Scarlet Street. Only the circular logic argument of Noir must be American really seems to keep one without the other and that frankly is a poor argument.

The thing is, you're never going to get a really rigorous definition of any genre or movement, because it's pretty much always a post-hoc attempt corral some works together in a way that leads to interesting comparisons. I see no reason why one can't arbitrarily slap "must have been produced in the US" as one of the definitions of noir- they're more or less all arbitrary, and limiting oneself to the US makes the pool a little smaller and the spread a little narrower.

I don't think anyone's denying that noir is profoundly influenced by factors originating outside the US- many of its finest directors were Germans, and there's an obvious continuity with French poetic realism and the French New Wave, and the war that it's meant to be a response to took place overseas- but it may simply be more convenient for criticism's sake to limit 'noir' to American-made movies between the years 1940 and 1960, even if there is no real rigor to such a definition.

[knives]

Well that comparing apples and oranges though. The French New Wave contained many different genres from gangster to horror and even comedy. It's plain and simple a movement and not a genre. If you're going to accuse noir of being a genre in itself than that means it will have a wider net than a movement. What could be argued, but again this relates closer to neorealism than the New Wave, is that a cultural specific aberration of a genre was born. So to say that Noir is not it's own genre, but instead a weird moment in the crime genre when all of the right parts mixed together in Hollywood than I'd be willing to go with that. The New Wave anology though doesn't work within that instance since it has more to do with the film makers than the films themselves.

Edit: This was in response to Zedz.

[Tribe]

but it may simply be more convenient for criticism's sake to limit 'noir' to American-made movies between the years 1940 and 1960, even if there is no real rigor to such a definition.

I recognize these "arbitrary" limiations have to exist, otherwise that style can arguably encompass any number of movies that were clearly never intended to be embraced within the style. After all, I think everyone can agree at this point that it's a style, not a genre....and that noir in fact transcends genre and auterism.

EDIT: Knives' comment about the French New Wave is right on. Style/movement is a different animal than genre.

[zedz]

I guess I'm not on the same page with the French New Wave as you, since I do see it as more of a stylistic and national thing than simply "every film made by an approved filmmaker". So while I'd include The Fire Within, I'd exclude The Silent World and Phantom India, since stylistically they're not 'new wave', just as I'd exclude Model Shop or Farenheit 451 because they're not French.

But as I said, everybody's welcome to define and re-define genres however they want. The boundaries are always going to be fuzzy, however tightly you try to define them, and some people like to move the goalposts back to the horizon while others like to keep them closer to the playing field.

[matrixschmatrix]

Well that comparing apples and oranges though. The French New Wave contained many different genres from gangster to horror and even comedy. It's plain and simple a movement and not a genre. If you're going to accuse noir of being a genre in itself than that means it will have a wider net than a movement. What could be argued, but again this relates closer to neorealism than the New Wave, is that a cultural specific aberration of a genre was born. So to say that Noir is not it's own genre, but instead a weird moment in the crime genre when all of the right parts mixed together in Hollywood than I'd be willing to go with that. The New Wave anology though doesn't work within that instance since it has more to do with the film makers than the films themselves.

Edit: This was in response to Zedz.

I would say that noir is more a style than a genre per se- it can encompass anything from a detective movie to a thriller to a romance to a journalistic investigation, etc. I agree that it's not perfectly analogous to the French New Wave, which is much more specific and limited, but broadly I do think noir as a concept is as much about a specific context in which certain kinds of American movies were made as it is about generic concerns in the normal sense.

But yeah, ultimately it's so slippery as to be indefinable, and I'm happy with a definition of noir that allows me to discuss whatever specific aspect I'm trying to address at the moment- so I will admit that I use the term inconsistently.

[Cold Bishop]

Well, let's ignore the question of nationality as an arbitrary marker... I still don't think film noir is as all-inclusive as all that. There's the factor of WWII, and the way that America's experience (and post-war response) was distinctly different from France (or Italy or Germany or Japan or Britain). There's the tradition of hard-boiled literature which influenced the cinema. There's the very melting-pot nature of Hollywood at the time, as well as the close-knit nature of the studio system, which allowed many stylistic and generic elements to cross-breed (horror, the gangster film, German Expressionism, Poetic Realism,etc.) There's the very identity of Hollywood as a "dream-factory" making glamorous and crowd-pleasing films... which allowed these "dark films" to stand out so much in the first place. There's the tiered system in studios (A-production vs. B-production, major studios vs. poverty-row) and the way they produced films, which created the impetus to codify many different generic strands into something that, if it doesn't quite tie together film noir into a clean-cut genre, at least make up a lexicon of easily identifiable elements (Private eye, femme fatale, heists, etc.)

[Yojimbo]

Looking forward to receiving my DVD-R of '99 River Street': By all accounts this could quickly turn out to be one of my great favourite noirs. John Payne combined well with Phil Karlson for 'Kansas City Confidential' and Payne himself looks like he could shortly be standing foursquare alongside Dana Andrews and Richard Basehart in my criminally underappreciated noir icons group

[Yojimbo]

Just watched my 'DVD-R' of 'Hickey and Boggs': I've been on the look-out for this one since reading about it in my 'Film Noir Encyclopaedia'; not least because of the size of its review.
Its not quite up to 'Night Moves' or 'Long Goodbye' quality, but it certainly deserves to be ranked alongside them in the sub-class of early 70's Noir Masterpieces.

The direction by Robert Culp was really bugging me for the first 10 minutes or so; not so much because of those annoyingly arty shots of insignificant objects which he seemed to be trying to attach some significance to, but more because of the rapid-fire changes of scenes while you needed to get to grips with the plot.
But it settled down after that, at least relatively speaking but now I'm inclined to think that this was just his way of saying that events were moving too fast for our two heroes to get to grips with the situation, - or perhaps he was saying that he wasn't that concerned with plot, or with viewers following the plot because of Walter Hill's somewhat off-the-wall script.
The script has its pros and cons, kinda like the script for Werner Herzog's 'Bad Lieutenant', its just advisable to go with the flow, because its a fun ride, anyhow.
As long as you're not the driver!

What I most loved about it was the determinedly doomladen, and gloomy, and nihilistic feel to the film: it gives a wonderfully wide-ranging view of LA, many of shots, or perspectives, never seen in any other LA film

Spoiler

I'm wondering did the final scene, on the beach, inspire a certain Japanese director for 'Sonatine'?

[Cold Bishop]

I've been waiting for either the 70s list or the potential "Neo-Noir" project to write about the film, but I'm a big partisan. I'm assuming the Film Noir Encyclopedia article is the same Elizabeth Ward one from the Film Noir Reader ("The Post-Noir P.I."), in which case, she sums it pretty much better than I can right now.

I actually really like the early scenes: is there a better image of the death of the detective than Hickey and Boggs, having just stumbled half-drunken out of a bar, running from pay-phone to pay-phone? I don't think you're wrong about Culp's attitude towards the "plot", but it's by design: the labyrinthine, confused plot is something that's part of hard-boiled mythology. Here, not only is it completely unnavigable for our detective, but it's so much so that unraveling it becomes practically insignificant. Private eyes taking assignment from shady characters with big paychecks is part of the genre: here, however, it is instantly foreseeable that Rice is going to lead to trouble - and that's even without taking into account that he's in a speedo leering at young children. They don't take the case out of temptation, but pure desperation. And they never even become part of the "plot". It's a completely external conflict between gangsters, political radicals, and sometime cops... these two only have the misfortune of being buffeted around by these various factions, sometimes tragically, and at the end, they don't even get the closure of Altman's Marlowe, let alone the classic P.I. "It's not about anything"

Certainly, it doesn't have the craft or ambition of the Penn or Altman, but it works for the film. If, by the 1970s, the film noir had become an A-genre, this film returns it to it's B-roots, without losing any of the poignancy of it's revisionist brethren. It's muscular, no-nonsense, and helped by a wonderful eye for Los Angeles (it's no surprise that it should be featured in Los Angeles Plays Itself). It's a neo-noir that takes place predominately in blazing sunshine, and does so without letting down any of the classic era urban nightscapes. It doesn't look like a town set to displace Chicago as the Second City; this Los Angeles is seedy, desolate, with a crumbling infrastructure that suggests a looming urban decay, and Culp doesn't capture this with any heavy-handed tricks or manipulation: he just knows how to film the city at the right angle.

And the ending is interesting: I don't know about Sonatine, but it definitely points towards The Warriors, even using Hill's signature post-Western parting shot of the hero(es) walking off into the distance. It also looks back to Kiss Me Deadly. It's not quite as dramatic as the bomb, but when the helicopter starts lowering, it's a genuinely bizarre and darkly humorous "Bambi Meets Godzilla" moment. Much like that film, the private eyes find themselves not only out of their league, but playing a completely different sport. And once again the film sums it up by having it completely destroy the Rolls-Royce - another symbol of the 40s noir heyday.

Interestingly enough, while the film feels like a forerunner to The Driver, it actually started much more humorous. It was Culp, when signing on to the film, that scrubbed all the comedy out of it, and made it a grimmer, more cynical film. (Speaking of Takeshi Kitano, this is similar to what happened when he inherited the once-comedic Violent Cop). From a Robert Culp screening of the film:

"He spoke briefly before the movie, basically saying that the other movie on the bill, 48 Hrs., exists because of Hickey and Boggs. After he and Bill Cosby bought Walter Hills script, they wanted to cut the comedy way back because "we had already done that for three years." He asked Walter Hill to do the rewrite, but he couldnt because he was busy working with Sam Peckinpah. So Robert Culp went off into the mountains and did the rewrite himself. He said the finished screenplay is about 50-50 between himself and Hill. He also said that when Walter Hill saw the film he went catatonic and that they have never spoken since. 48 Hrs. is the movie Walter Hill envisioned Hickey and Boggs to be."

In fact, I heard an anecdote from a blog, I can't remember which, about someone actually meeting Walter Hill and telling him he was a fan. Hill looked at him stunned in disbelief that anyone could have seen the film, let alone liked it, until begrudgingly admitting there may have been "something" in that film.

And it's a damn shame Culp never lived to see it released, let alone on the Blu-Ray that MGM is more than capable of putting out (hell, let alone a pressed DVD), as he'd been working on it for the last decade of his life, and been really proud of it, as he should have been (for the record, Cosby is also quite proud of the film, and it shows he could have been a more than credible dramatic leading man in an alternate 1970s).

[Yojimbo]

I haven't seen that other article but Elizabeth Ward wrote the detailed comment in the Encyclopedia.

CB, I've noticed that many of the IMDb user comments are critical of the editing and directing, but those first ten minutes or so changed scenes so rapidly that I have to assume it was intentional on Culp's part, and not due to any lack of technical mastery on his or his editor's part.

I was also thinking of the ending of 'Kiss Me Deadly', although I'd forgotten about 'The Warriors', which, as with 'The Driver', I saw on its initial cinema release.
I haven't checked but if this was Walter Hill's first major script I reckoned that he wanted ro get himself noticed, big-time.

I forgot to mention James Woods; as with 'The Choirboys' he also plays a somewhat nerdy character, albeit displaying enough hints of the edginess that was to become his trademark

this Los Angeles is seedy, desolate, with a crumbling infrastructure that suggests a looming urban decay, and Culp doesn't capture this with any heavy-handed tricks or manipulation: he just knows how to film the city at the right angle.

I particularly loved the scenes at the garden centre; the seedy apartment building, where Cosby has to cling to the drainpipe while the three cowboys are wreaking their havoc, and, of course, the cliff-top property scenes overlooking what looked like Santa Monica Boulevard (or whatever the beachfront road that passes by Venice Beach), which is more a typical LA sunshine scene, albeit never filmed from that unusual perspective

Speaking of those other films: even allowing that both Penn and Altman were better directors than Culp I doubt very much that they would have made as good a job as Culp has done here

btw, I actually saw, and was a big fan of 'I Spy' , which screened on Irish tv sometime around the mid 60's; I'm sure that series was far more light in tone than this, and the comedy you refer to may have been an attempt to update their charm to the early 70's.

Although the DVD-R warns that its been produced from best available source materials its an excellent quality print, and more than meets the requirements posed by the gloomy interiors as well as those sparkling cliff-top and beach scenes

[Cold Bishop]

It's just disappointing, having spent years watching it on HD on television to now have to downgrade to a DVD-R.

I had a DVR recording of it for about two years before my old box crapped out. And with MGM-HD slowly degenerating into another AMC/UHD, I probably won't get a chance to make another.

[Yojimbo]

It's just disappointing, having spent years watching it on HD on television to now have to downgrade to a DVD-R.

I had a DVR recording of it for about two years before my old box crapped out. And with MGM-HD slowly degenerating into another AMC/UHD, I probably won't get a chance to make another.

Will DVD-Rs not play on a HD tv? :-k
(in Peoria, or elsewhere?)

[neal]

It's just disappointing, having spent years watching it on HD on television to now have to downgrade to a DVD-R.

I had a DVR recording of it for about two years before my old box crapped out. And with MGM-HD slowly degenerating into another AMC/UHD, I probably won't get a chance to make another.

Will DVD-Rs not play on a HD tv? :-k
(in Peoria, or elsewhere?)

Playing it on an HDTV doesn't make it HD...

[Yojimbo]

Just watched Budd Boetticher's 'The Killer Is Loose' ; another beautiful, spare, piece of work, made in the same year as 'Seven Men From Now', and clearly the work of the same director.
The heart-stopping, beautifully-staged climactic last 5 or 6 minutes will appeal to all film-fans, but otherwise this is a cineaste's delight in his framing; the mobile camera and the frequent changes of perspectives,the large number of scene changes.
I think its the first time I've seen Wendell Corey in a villain role and although in initial scenes he seemed somewhat blank and over-the-top, he gradually settled down and even became quite sympathetic; he was particularly impressive in the scenes at the home of his old army colleague, played by John Larch.
But, in the acting stakes, at least, its his film, and he gives a very creditable performance.
He got solid support from Joseph Cotten, and Virginia Christine was quite impressive as a 'strong' cops wife
(Rhonda Fleming rather overdid the hysterics, at times)

Nice tight script, pared to the bone, and short, efficient scenes had the story zipping along; Lucien Ballard provided excellent day and night camerawork.
But another directing Masterclass from Boetticher; such a pity he lost so much of his career with his ill-fated Mexican trip

[domino harvey]

NOIR BINGE

Two O'Clock Courage (Anthony Mann 1945) A moderately entertaining whodunit hampered by an insistence that the mystery is all that interesting. There's a lot of larger than life supporting actors going big, too many for such a small film, though Ann Rutherford hits the right wry notes. Jane Greer pops up in an early role, smiling-- with teeth showing and everything!

He Ran All the Way (John Berry 1951) Almost unbearably nihilistic noir that hits hard once the credits stop and never slows pace as it races ahead. John Garfield, in his final role, plays a perfect encapsulation of his "type" at their worst: petty, thuggish, and paranoid. Only this time he's dragging down an entire family with him-- and not even a well-to-do privileged family, but apartment dwellers barely one socioeconomic rung above Garfield's hotheaded punk. Garfield insults and emasculates his captives to such an unrelenting degree that when they finally turn the tables on him and start showing spine, it still feels like too little too late-- Garfield's left his mark on these people, for the worse.

the Prowler (Joseph Losey 1951) A bit of a victim of its own greatness in the first act, but even though each subsequent act seems to deplete its effectiveness by half, the end result still levels out pretty well. Was Van Heflin ever as good as he is here as the sleazebag cop? He exudes such a noxious aura in the first twenty minutes that it's admittedly a little sad when the film settles into a more rote noir pattern. But there remains a delightful unease to the picture that makes it easy to overlook its flaws in construction and the ludicrous setting of its final act

Bodyguard (Richard Fleischer 1948) Admittedly there's a bit of novelty in seeing Lawrence Tierney as a good cop, but that lasts all of five minutes before the hothead gets himself fired! Standard by the books b-mystery with slightly more visual flair than normal thanks to Fleischer's involvement. The halfhearted Jungle riff near the end is too bizarrely halfassed to even address seriously.

711 Ocean Drive (Joseph M Newman 1950) Hard to think of a better tagline than "Filmed under police protection," and while nothing here is so tree-shaking that it would justify the histrionics, this is still a superior rags to criminal kingpin tale, with the kind of cocky role Edmond O'Brien was born to play. Props to the film for letting most of the mobsters running the show get away with it at the end of the picture (under the auspices of "Be careful, audience, these men are still out there" chiding)

Betrayed aka When Strangers Marry (William Castle 1944) Apparently this pic has its fans, but I can't share in the hyperbole: it's immediately clear thanks to the clumsy yet still too clever opening photographic tricks that this one is preparing a twist ending, and there's only one possible participant who could be "it," so to say this is still a slog at 67 minutes is putting it mildly. Doesn't help that Kim Hunter has all the star appeal of a sack of oranges.

Highway 301 (Andrew L Stone 1950) Stone, ever the showman, somehow convinced three sitting governors to film introductions for this picture as though it were an important, serious social problem pic and not a wonderfully lurid and aggressive noir. Bravo, because nothing here is likely to inspire anyone in the audience to turn away from a life of crime (any more than any other noir), though perhaps the ladies in the audience who were dragged in by the boyfriends might get something out of the film's ace depiction of the realities of being a gang member's gal. Indeed, the film's real strength is not found in the more traditional robberies and shootouts committed by the Steve Cochran-led Tri-State Gang, but in how the gang members treat, use, and then dispose of their committed partners. Easily one of the best noirs to address the genre's toxic attitude towards women, Stone showcases these women and their naiveté born out of a mixture of willful disbelief and hopeless exasperation. Features one of the greatest pursuer sequences I can remember, one capped with a twist so cruel that even the most jaded noir fan is likely to smile wide and clap their hands in delight.

[Yojimbo]

NOIR BINGE


He Ran All the Way (John Berry 1951) Almost unbearably nihilistic noir that hits hard once the credits stop and never slows pace as it races ahead. John Garfield, in his final role, plays a perfect encapsulation of his "type" at their worst: petty, thuggish, and paranoid. Only this time he's dragging down an entire family with him-- and not even a well-to-do privileged family, but apartment dwellers barely one socioeconomic rung above Garfield's hotheaded punk. Garfield insults and emasculates his captives to such an unrelenting degree that when they finally turn the tables on him and start showing spine, it still feels like too little too late-- Garfield's left his mark on these people, for the worse.

the Prowler (Joseph Losey 1951) A bit of a victim of its own greatness in the first act, but even though each subsequent act seems to deplete its effectiveness by half, the end result still levels out pretty well. Was Van Hefflin ever as good as he is here as the sleazebag cop? He exudes such a noxious aura in the first twenty minutes that it's admittedly a little sad when the film settles into a more rote noir pattern. But there remains a delightful unease to the picture that makes it easy to overlook its flaws in construction and the ludicrous setting of its final act

I can't believe that you failed to mention the female stars of these two movies, dom: Shelley Winters in 'He Ran All the Way', and, especially, Evelyn Keyes in 'The Prowler', who surprised me as I'd never had her down as a great noir actress, prior to this. In fact she might even have topped Heflin's performance. He was so creepy, particularly in that scene of him on the phone to her while in his bedroom, that he made your flesh crawl.
And then there's her 'radio host' husband: how creepy could he have gotten?

[domino harvey]

Voiced by Dalton Trumbo, no less! I generally like Winters from this period (she's the only reason to watch A Place in the Sun) before she lapsed into self-parody and yes, she's good here as the pathetic girl who latches onto Garfield's louse. Keyes never does much for me, but she's so ubiquitous in the noir genre that I've grown accustomed to her (same for Audrey Totter)

[Yojimbo]

Where do you stand on Winters in 'Bloody Mama', then?

[domino harvey]

Haven't seen it, but I feel like I have just from reading a one-line plot description!

[Tribe]

For those of you who might be interested, a new volume in the series of Film Noir books edited by Alain Silver and James Ursini is on the verge of being released: Film Noir, the Directors. It shows up on Amazon as being "temporarily out of stock," but according to Mr. Silver in an email to me, it should be in stock by March 15. This volume is purported to be the "de facto" Film Noir Reader 5....until that actually comes out (if ever).

[Tribe]

I'm missing only nine out of the Noir list of 121 that I haven't seen and I either haven't been able to find a decent release or none in the US:

Shadow of a Doubt (Hitchcock, 1943) (there is a legit American release of this)
Detective Story (Wyler, 1951) (likewise, a legit American release exists)

Slightly Scarlet (Dwan, 1956)
Hollow Triumph aka The Scar (Sekely, 1948)
Moonrise (Borzage, 1949)
The Chase (Ripley, 1946)
Woman On the Run (Foster, 1950)
Phantom Lady (Siodmak, 1944)
Private Hell 36 (Siegel, 1954)

Any thoughts whether the last seven are available in other Regions? Many of them are available in potentially shitty versions from companies like Alpha and VCI (although some, like Phantom Lady are nowhere to be found when it comes to any Region 1 or 0 relase). But before I spring the $6 or $7 for those versions, I thought I'd tap into recommendations here first.

[antnield]

Phantom Lady has had R2 French and Spanish discs and a R4 edition too. Some info on the latter here.

[starmanof51]

Slightly Scarlet (Dwan, 1956)
Hollow Triumph aka The Scar (Sekely, 1948)
Phantom Lady (Siodmak, 1944)

The French Carlotta disc of Phantom Lady is pretty terrific and is easy to recommend but not cheap last I saw. As you mention, VCI has some of these. I have their Slightly Scarlet and don't think it's too bad, but the Beav has a comp up with a Carlotta release that's unsurprisingly better. VCI has The Scar as well, which is deep in my kevyip. Beav also has caps for that one so you can see what you think. I think I'm going to be saddened by the quality when I finally get around to it, but will probably not regret the $3 it cost me in one of their ridiculous Christmas sales a few years ago.