Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

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brendanjc
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#26 Post by brendanjc »

I picked this up based on word of mouth and I'm frankly not sure what to think of what I saw- if there was ever a film that deserved to be called "deeply flawed" I think this is it. I'd actually recommend browsing the IMDB boards for this one as there's a shocking amount of coherent well-reasoned discussion in there compared to what you'd usually find. I think the crucial difference in my reaction to the film and that of the people here who are applauding it is an emotional one - this just didn't generate any connection for the main characters for me at all, despite decent performances from both of them. One of problems here is that there's not much of a hint given as to their actual personality, you really know next to nothing about either of them except that Anna is compassionate.

I appreciated the unpredictable swings the film's script took and the unconventional structure but something in the direction really killed the tension in a few key places for me. Though it seems there are some spoilers here already I like to be polite, I can't imagine bothering to watch this at all if it's been spoiled...
Spoiler
Like tenia, I too thought the first monster attack which takes place in the orphanage/hospital clearly telegraphed that the monster was imaginary. The incredibly noisy attack happened in a building full of people when Lucie was conveniently alone, and the shots of Anna walking in and seeing the cuts all over her arms just scream out that they were self-inflicted. There's no effort to introduce the monster or explain where it went off to, it set off pretty much every alarm bell. The fact that Anna pays no mind to Lucie's warnings about the monster being in the house should reveal this after its second appearance in case you miss out the first time. This isn't really a big demerit against the film, but it is the only sort of mystery or plot to speak of in the first half of the movie so it's a shame it was handled so clumsily. I will say that the abruptness of the shotgun sequence, Lucie's suicide, and the rescued captive sequence were the most shocking parts of the film to me and the only parts that made me cringe. The twist in killing what I perceived to be the main character off was a surprise, but I think Hostel pulled the same trick.

The second half of the film is obviously the controversial part and it's where the fans and detractors surely part ways. The crucial misstep here for me was that, again, the twist the plot takes when Anna is handcuffed was a shock, but the film gives away too much too soon. When the older woman explains the martyr images it's completely obvious that Anna will be tortured and become the martyr they're looking for, there's nowhere else for the film to go. During the half hour or so of repetitive torture my mind wandered a bit since I knew where it was leading, which gave me enough time to speculate that the only reason you would want to put someone into this state would be to try and learn about the afterlife, and lo and behold, that's exactly it. When people start showing up for the press conference it's pretty clear that we won't learn what Anna actually said since I doubted the filmmaker would be ballsy enough to try and answer this eternal question right at the end of his film, and we're left with the open ending.

The ending is the thing that both completely makes and breaks this film for me. It seems to me that the Mademoiselle couldn't have learned that something good lay beyond or she'd have told her followers instead of eating a bullet. Both killing herself and her last line of dialogue ("keep doubting") seem intended to both atone for her sins or imply her failure to cope with the knowledge she has (or hasn't learned), and to stop her followers from continuing the search so they don't wind up like her. Ominous words and your leader's suicide are pretty good deterrents. That means the only real answers seem to be that she either heard that there was nothing beyond (i.e. the atheist reading), she heard something she couldn't understand (i.e. the agnostic reading), or she heard that there was something bad waiting for her (i.e. the religious reading). You could also get into the argument of whether Anna could have lied or not, but that doesn't seem to have any real bearing on the picture either - if she managed to get her revenge by lying she still seems to have come out of the whole thing far worse than the perpetrators. The film doesn't make any sort of stand or claim here whatsoever to defend, it doesn't engage the idea at all beyond raising the question. I'm not sure that's enough to justify sitting through all that torture for.
Other minor nitpicks, I don't know if I'd agree that the film-making was meticulous - there were cheap effects and some laughable props (like a giant hammer and knife) that I found distracting, and I thought far too many shots were framed way too tight which forced the camera to drift around too much. The opening shot and the long CGI take through Anna's eye are the only shots that struck me as memorable. I found the whole film lacking in consistent style - the dungeon set could have been a left-over from pretty much any "torture porn" flick, the goofy black costumes that the cult members were wearing stuck out like a sore thumb, and the monster looked and moved like creatures from the Silent Hill film (IMDB says that Laugier directed the making-of Brotherhood of the Wolf, a film also directed by Christopher Gans, so perhaps this influence is intentional homage).

At the end seeing this movie is something like someone tellig you in middle school that they know a girl who has a crush on you but will only tell you for a dollar - after taking your dollar to the snack machine they back out on the deal and don't tell you anything. You're left angry, you feel a bit cheated, your probably won't want to talk to that person again, but worst of all, you've had your curiosity piqued about this girl who you've learned nothing about, if she even existed at all in the first place.
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mfunk9786
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#27 Post by mfunk9786 »

I don't really know what to say about this. I came into it expecting torture porn (I am an unabashed fan of the Hostel films, I find them to be effective horror pictures that are unfairly maligned by those who are squeamish over what they portray), or horror (Having just watched what the Weinstein Company sort of forced into 'sister film' status, the straight-up horror flick Inside, which couldn't be farther from this film in terms of subject matter) and came out feeling rather injured. What we get isn't either of those things - what is portrayed on screen is too obvious to be scary, without a villain in sight for the first hour or so. Even when we eventually are given something to feel bad about, we're too intrigued by where the film has decided to take us to feel actual sympathy. What frightens me about myself as a person is that I sort of get it. I get what this film is trying to say and where it goes. As an atheist, I understand the ending and it speaks volumes for me, and sort of left me changed in what might be irreparable ways, having seen my own greatest fears and doubts and hopes splayed out on screen for me to gawk at. I don't quite know what to say. Part of my mind certainly wants to label this as a pretentious piece of blood-splattered garbage, but the rest of it resists that cynicism with a muscular tenacity. It is certainly the most difficult film I've sat through (or to be more specific, since the first hour or so wasn't all that challenging, the most difficult half hour of fiction film I've sat through). Giving a star rating or a recommendation to a film like this feels utterly wrong, and churns up nausea inside of me, so I won't do it. The thing about the Saw films is that they feed a desire to see a serial killer's soapy saga to the end, which appeals to a guy who grew up fascinated by the Gacys and the Dahmers of the world. The thing about the Hostel films is that they provide smart but somewhat obvious social commentary while scaring the living daylights out of the viewer - there's a very close-to-home "it could happen to you!!" feel to those films that makes them both worthwhile despite all the dissent. Inside is just a balls-out "the calls are coming from inside the house" type of horror flick, and it's very very effective in creating immediate feelings of terror within the viewer's mind. But Martyrs isn't horror. It touches on the deepest feelings of doubt and worry and wonder and pain in the human experience. I don't know if that makes what feels very much like an amateur film most of the way through a true masterpiece - but I am not ready to write this off as anything but a truly original piece of work.
James
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#28 Post by James »

mfunk9786 wrote:But Martyrs isn't horror. It touches on the deepest feelings of doubt and worry and wonder and pain in the human experience.
Do continue. I'm more of a lurker around here at this point, but I'm curious to hear more about these feelings and how they relate to the human experience.
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mfunk9786
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#29 Post by mfunk9786 »

James wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:But Martyrs isn't horror. It touches on the deepest feelings of doubt and worry and wonder and pain in the human experience.
Do continue. I'm more of a lurker around here at this point, but I'm curious to hear more about these feelings and how they relate to the human experience.
Spoiler
There's obviously a very heavily sinister element to the group that is essentially kidnapping and torturing innocent people in order to glean more information about the afterlife, but I can assure you that if religious yahoos had their druthers and thought there might be something to that sort of thing, it'd be going on in real life. Everyone, even those atheists and agnostics who shrug their shoulders and say "Well, when I'm dead, it'll just be like it's 1920 again - the world was going on, I just wasn't part of it!" is secretly, deep down in their mind, naturally repressing terror over death. Even those (like myself) who don't believe in an afterlife sort of wish there were one, and find the concept of just ceasing to exist to be rather unsettling at best and horrifying at worst, even if those feelings have been pushed far into the back of one's mind.

This is all my rambling opinion and conjecture, and I might catch some shit for it, but anyway. Back to the film. I find the group (were they even given a name?) in the film that does the torturing to obviously be reprehensible, but I sort of get what they're doing within the context of the film. They have some kind of 'greater good' in mind, but it's at the expense of innocent people's lives. Something spoke to me about the fact that they didn't torture just to exercise their power (like the groups in Salo or Hostel), but that they hypothesized that something long unattainable could come from it. I am having a hard time putting the feelings that the last 30 minutes or so of this film wrung out of me into words at this point, so I apologize that this is just coming off as a stuttering elaboration of what I've already said, and isn't really gleaning any new insight into what I'm getting at. The movie just freaked me the fuck out - it laid out exactly what scares me about the fact that I've come to my own conclusion that there's no conceivable way that there's any sort of afterlife - and hit me over the head with it. As somebody who goes through life terrified of his own death, seeing what went on in this film was truly sobering and upsetting, but somehow seemed hopeful to a miniscule part of my mind. I, like the group of torturers, sort of thought "Hm, well let's see where this might be going!" somewhere in my unthinking reptile brain, and that really spooked me, especially considering what "this" was.
James
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:11 pm

Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#30 Post by James »

(minor spoilers)

Take a look through this, mfunk

Of course, I loved the movie when I saw it. I'm maybe not so sure I agree we cease to exist completely after life (completely seperated from our current self and de/evolved into something else, maybe), but I'm not expecting to go to the cover of the Santa's Abraxis. That said, the image of that old woman is perhaps forever embroidered into my mind. I think the movie works best as a nightmarish thriller simply checking all the right genre-related boxes for me what with its secret corridors with haunting pictures on the wall, creepy De Sade references and action set-pieces that feel like the French trying to pull off Hollywood aesthetic.
Grand Illusion
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#31 Post by Grand Illusion »

mfunk9786 wrote:
Spoiler
There's obviously a very heavily sinister element to the group that is essentially kidnapping and torturing innocent people in order to glean more information about the afterlife, but I can assure you that if religious yahoos had their druthers and thought there might be something to that sort of thing, it'd be going on in real life. Everyone, even those atheists and agnostics who shrug their shoulders and say "Well, when I'm dead, it'll just be like it's 1920 again - the world was going on, I just wasn't part of it!" is secretly, deep down in their mind, naturally repressing terror over death. Even those (like myself) who don't believe in an afterlife sort of wish there were one, and find the concept of just ceasing to exist to be rather unsettling at best and horrifying at worst, even if those feelings have been pushed far into the back of one's mind.
Agreed 100%, but...
Spoiler
I wish the ending of the film had the courage of its convictions (or maybe I should say your/my convictions). Nevertheless, I wish it bluntly stated what you're getting at. I think the power of the film is diminished by its reticence to stick a stake into the ground and say, "These people tortured other people to find out what? Nothing. There's nothing." That's tragic irony. Ending other people's lives to find out if there's an afterlife, and then there isn't one. That's unsettling.

The narrative question of, "Well, what did she really hear?" overshadows the far more powerful thematic content that you have wonderfully elucidated. I share your feelings, but I walked away from the ending of the film wishing the resolution was more terrifying. There's torture and blood and genre elements of "horror." And then there's true horror: non-existence. I feel like the film backed away from the latter.
I would like to say that, somewhere, Harry Houdini is laughing at this, but he's not. Because he's dead.
Giap
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#32 Post by Giap »

Hmm. This flick simply struck me as a rather cynical and obvious exploitation riff on the BDSM cliche of achieving enlightenment through submission and pain, but there we go.
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Mr Sausage
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#33 Post by Mr Sausage »

Giap wrote:Hmm. This flick simply struck me as a rather cynical and obvious exploitation riff on the BDSM cliche of achieving enlightenment through submission and pain, but there we go.
That's pretty mediaeval isn't it? Harrowing the body to become closer to god?
Giap
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#34 Post by Giap »

Of course - an idea that probably goes back to the dawn of humanity in some form or another. But this is the way such experiences tend to be framed in the modern world, the fetish subculture most probably being the inspiration for, and one of the target audiences of, Laugier's production.
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mfunk9786
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#35 Post by mfunk9786 »

I'm not saying that I think that what methods were employed in the film actually, in the real world, would accomplish anything - but within the context of the film the themes explored make sense.

Giap, you're way fucking out of line with your reading of the film re: the fetish community. There is absolutely no parallel between the BDSM community and this film - there is absolutely no pleasure, implied pleasure, intended pleasure, etc. from the torture sequences of this film. Period.

And I agree with you, Grand Illusion. I think the ending would have been more effective had it taken on a decidedly
Spoiler
atheist viewpoint
but on the other side of the coin, I think that there's something more interesting about the film being somewhat universal in terms of the meaning of the ending.
Spoiler
The Madam is obviously not thrilled about what's on the other side, so even if the ending is somehow pro-religion in some people's minds, they certainly wouldn't read it as "what's on the other side is a forgiving and loving God."
Grand Illusion
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#36 Post by Grand Illusion »

mfunk9786 wrote:And I agree with you, Grand Illusion. I think the ending would have been more effective had it taken on a decidedly
Spoiler
atheist viewpoint
but on the other side of the coin, I think that there's something more interesting about the film being somewhat universal in terms of the meaning of the ending.
Spoiler
The Madam is obviously not thrilled about what's on the other side, so even if the ending is somehow pro-religion in some people's minds, they certainly wouldn't read it as "what's on the other side is a forgiving and loving God."
Alternatively...
Spoiler
a religious person could see that as a reaffirmation of a classical Heaven/Hell dichotomy. "She tortured people and was bad, so of course she wasn't happy with the vision of the afterlife. I don't torture people and accept J.C. as my personal lord and savior, therefore, it's all good."

I'm not saying that is a definitive reading, but an open ending lends itself to completely opposite interpretations than to what you and I would find effective and meaningful.
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mfunk9786
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#37 Post by mfunk9786 »

I think the fact that we can have a discussion like this about what, from the outside, people dismiss out of hand as a "torture porn" (jeez, I hate that phrase so much at this point) film is a testament to how excellent Martyrs is in a lot of ways.
Grand Illusion
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Re: Martyrs (Pascal Laugier, 2008)

#38 Post by Grand Illusion »

mfunk9786 wrote:I think the fact that we can have a discussion like this about what, from the outside, people dismiss out of hand as a "torture porn" (jeez, I hate that phrase so much at this point) film is a testament to how excellent Martyrs is in a lot of ways.
Agreed. I think it certainly elevates itself above the genre as a whole, despite thinking that the ending is a bit of a cop-out.
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