The Lists Project

[knives]

I didn't knew he was a Kiwi since all the films I've encountered by him were made on the isles.

[Nothing]

descriminating / creating a list based on nationality seems totally arbitrary to me. Who cares where a director was born, it's the quality of the work that counts...

[matrixschmatrix]

Literally every division we've got for lists is totally arbitrary

[zedz]

I didn't new he was a Kiwi since all the films I've encountered by him were made on the isles.

And this is where one of the problems lies. For that matter, Jane Campion has only made one actual New Zealand film (An Angel at My Table) - which doesn't stop Kiwis claiming all of her Australian and European films as their own (though I don't see that many hands going up for In the Cut!)

Joking aside, there are plenty of good New Zealand films - probably more shorts than features - it's just that most people on this forum, let alone anywhere else, will probably never get a chance to see them.

[Nothing]

It's arbitrary where one choose to draw the line perhaps, but comparing films from the same era, or films from the same genre, does make a certain sense. A list of, say, the best Soviet films I could understand also, since there's an ideological underpinning as well as a geographical one (although ironically an Orthodox Christian would probably top that particular list...)

Maori minority aside, and this is admittedly speaking from the perspective of an outsider, New Zealand strikes me as inordinately and inexplicably happy country! You know something is up when even the customs guys at the airport greet you with smiles and humour... Perhaps after all there is something to the old adage about great art being born of misery...

[Mr Sausage]

It's arbitrary where one choose to draw the line perhaps, but comparing films from the same era, or films from the same genre, does make a certain sense. A list of, say, the best Soviet films I could understand also, since there's an ideological underpinning as well as a geographical one (although ironically an Orthodox Christian would probably top that particular list...)

The point would be to become more familiar with certain national cinemas. The ranking and comparisons are of secondary interest, and only as a kind of fun game. The real point of the Lists Project is to see and learn about a ton of new and interesting films.

Also: all rules and all definitions and all distinctions are by their nature arbitrary, including any that you're proposing, so could you please stop tossing that word around?

[Nothing]

Ah, ever the post-modernist...

[matrixschmatrix]

Postmodernism is certainly more honest than a one man canon

[Mr Sausage]

Ah, ever the post-modernist...

The idea that definitions and the distinctions between categories are arbitrary predates post-modernism. You're conflating it with the po-mo theory of the floating or empty signifier, which is something else. Not that it matters. To you, the word arbitrary is a buzzword for rules or definitions you don't like, not for things that lack an identifiable purpose.

Insofar as nationalities can be distinguished, we should be able to play a game involving them. Stop trying to ruin the fun.

[zedz]

Also, I'm very confused as to why a shared culture and history should be irrelevant to considerations of commonality whereas the ideology of the government at a particular historical moment is not.

And I'd argue that German cinema, say, has been impacted as strongly by German history as Soviet / Russian cinema has been by the Revolution and its aftermath, and a large swathe of Italian cinema can be understood as a response to or reaction against the film-historical albatross of neo-realism, not to mention the importance of specific national manifestations of Catholicism, Communism, Fascism and regional difference.

[YnEoS]

If we ever got started on the National Cinema lists, I'd love it if we did a Hong Kong cinema list. Might not be everyone here's cup of tea, and there's certainly tons already written on other websites. But I'd be super curious what people on this board would tend to favor, and the discussion that would be generated. One of the most fascinating national cinemas in my opinion.

[knives]

The only thing I'd be worried about (and this applies to a national cinema list in general) is what counts as part of that national cinema. Like I've seen Come Drink with Me as Hong Kong while Touch of Zen by the same director is Taiwanese. I bet that's one of the more clear cut examples too.

[YnEoS]

Yeah there are bound to be complications, especially with films with financing from other countries, shot outside of hong kong, made by directors born in different countries, etc.

Still I can't imagine it being more complicated than genre films, and I'm pretty sure we'd be able to find some agreed upon standard to go on. Plenty of other websites have managed top Hong Kong lists without much dispute.

[knives]

I was actually thinking of the sticky mess that is American-English co-productions. Usually, for example, I see all of Kubirck's films from Lolita forward as being UK though that only applies to where they shot it.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

If we ever got started on the National Cinema lists, I'd love it if we did a Hong Kong cinema list. Might not be everyone here's cup of tea, and there's certainly tons already written on other websites. But I'd be super curious what people on this board would tend to favor, and the discussion that would be generated. One of the most fascinating national cinemas in my opinion.

I also would contribute to that list. Heck I already have one (though I'm going to revamp it soon). HK is certainly one of my favorite national cinemas and I've written many reviews on this cinema. So many different genres from HK.

If you are interested here is a several thousand word essay on my top 50 Hong Kong films: Master's top 50 Hong Kong films

I've seen several hundred HK films. In the link above I do talk about what counts and what does not, but it can get difficult to figure out (especially with the later films).

[domino harvey]

Musicals have got about a month and a half til final curtain call. Get those hoofers a rollin' folks

The next list is going to be Horror and let's get some of this out of the way now: It's going to be like Noirs, ie the "Vote For It" rule will be in effect concerning what is and isn't "horror." It will not be divided up into subsections of "types" of horror, nor by era-- straight-up VHS section at Blockbuster: "HORROR." By suggestion, the List will run a little longer than normal since this is a larger-encompassing genre than the three that came before it (and in all likelihood will be the broadest genre we tackle)-- I'm thinking December when the Musicals List ends through sometime the following November. Would eleven months be sufficient?

However, on to more sticky matters: Yes, short films are eligible, but I've been pondering... many great horror anthology television series are essentially presenting self-contained short horror films, so the question becomes, are these eligible? I vote yes, with some caveats: that you'd have to vote for a specific episode, not a season or series, and only anthology series would be eligible (Tales From the Crypt, Masters of Horror, &c-- No Buffy, X-Files, &c). What say you all?

Also, because I feel if we did do this, the temptation would be there: I'm making an executive decision right now, regardless of how we decide on individual anthology episodes, no one will be allowed to divide up a portmanteau or anthology film. (i.e. you can't vote for the doll segment from Trilogy of Terror, you have to vote for the entirety of Trilogy of Terror-- this is non-negotiable, because next thing you know people are voting only for their favorite three minutes of combat in the War Films list)

[knives]

I'm cool with that (though I'll likely take the lazy route in regards to shows and not vote for anything, my list will be overstuffed even if I don't take that in). I wonder what I'll consider a Chabrol horror and what not? Should we also be squawking about what to do after horror? If so I suggest animation.

[domino harvey]

Another good thing about taking so long to complete the Horror List is it buys us an extension on figuring out what the hell comes next

And yes, I suspect short of some serious lobbying for a specific episode, it will make little difference to the final list. But in the interest of clarity, I'd like to get it settled one way or the other beforehand.

[knives]

Speaking of lobbying remember everyone Olive will release Shanks soon. I hope this list turns out as fun as the previous ones had though it will be a completely different experience since I've already seen so much from the genre (under the loosest definition just under 1000).

[tarpilot]

Yes! This allows me to maximize my list's Tourneur presence with his Twilight Zone episode. O happy day.

[swo17]

no one will be allowed to divide up a portmanteau or anthology film.

I've never been clear about the rule for portmanteau films for the lists projects in general. I know individual segments have been eligible by themselves, but were they competing against the whole films from which they originated? I'm curious how zedz handled this. domino, you're of course free to do it however you like for the horror list.

[Mr Sausage]

Christ, horror is huge enough as it is without letting individual tv episodes into the mix. And while I'd love to vote for that wonderful Outer Limits episode, The Form of Things Unknown, I wonder if this will just add to the overkill of what is already a gigantic genre. It's not as tho' anyone will be at a loss for List additions and recommendations if television episodes were disallowed.

Not against this in principle, but it does seem to tip the exercise towards the overwhelming more than it has to.

[Cold Bishop]

The Form of Things Unknown

Directed by recent forum star, Gerd Oswald!

As far as TV goes... much like the film noir list went, i'll probably put my own limitation on myself and not vote for any of them. With that said, I'm not against the idea, but there's enough in the genre for me not to journey down detours.

[knives]

Even just amongst '70s horror (my biggest hole) there's enough there for a few lists out of what I've seen. I'm comfortable with the rule standing, but I won't be acting on it.

[domino harvey]

To be clear, I'm not proposing this rule to backdoor any personal favorite-- to be honest, though I grew up with a lot of the anthology horror series and remember them fondly, it's hard to think of an example that would merit list-space. But I was definitely thinking about the problem that the Masters of Horror series posed, and this seemed a logical response. Again, I doubt anyone lists more than one or two eps tops anyways, and the odds that those end up effecting the list are slim, but it only seemed fair. Besides, who knows, maybe there's a real gem hidden in the middle of one of those season sets of anthology horror series that someone will rediscover and we all come out loving it