1930s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 3)

[matrixschmatrix]

Little Caesar is fun, but it crosses the line into camp too often for me. There's no way I can take "Is this the end.... of Rico?" seriously- whereas Scarface and The Public Enemy manage to be just as heightened (and darkly funny) without ever seeming silly. I didn't find The Public Enemy horrific, nor did it seem like any kind of reason not to be a gangster, though- for one thing, I'm not convinced that Cagney's character would have behaved any differently if he were a greengrocer or a truck driver. All the killing of Putty Nose seemed to get across, to me, was not to fuck with Jimmy Cagney.

I'm also somewhat spoiled here by the Sopranos- outside of a gangster context, the scene where they go and shoot the horse to avenge Nails would be horrific. In this context, it just seems stupid and funny, and very much like something that Christopher and Paulie Walnuts would do.

[Wu.Qinghua]

Does anyone else have three or more silent movies in their top ten? I wonder if I'm just loving them extra hard because I wasn't around for the 20s list.

Actually, there are four silents in my Top 10 at the moment, two from the Soviet Union and two from Shanghai. Concerning country of origin, I have 9 French as well as American movies on my list, followed by 7 from China as well as from Japan, 6 from the Soviet Union, 5 from Germany and 3 from the UK. There are no animation films, but six documentaries and essay films. Overall, I obviously prefer socially engaged and often imperfect movies to cinematic masterpieces, which leads to a strong presence of poetic realist and Shanghai leftist films on my list.

I'd also like to put two movies in the spotlight, about which I've already written a few words:

Misère au Borinage (Ivens & Stock, Belgium 1933)
I think, it's one of the quintessential documentary as well as activist films from the depression era, depicting the devastating living conditions of Belgian miners as well as their struggles in the early 30s. It's out on DVD in Europe, but you can find it with French intertitels on Youtube, too.
(Edit: Unfortunately, there's no audio track on the Dutch DVD. I doubt, that the film is intended to be seen completely silent, but I also found the usual piano accompaniment to be out of place. When watching the film at home, I usually resort to Prince Far I's 'Cry Tuff Dub Encounter Chapter One' for musical accompaniment).

Xin Nuexing / New Women (Woman) (Cai Chusheng, China 1934)
One of those leftist movies starring Ruan Lingyu, which were produced for middle-class audiences by Lianhua in the early 30s. Inspired by the real-life suicide of an actress and foreshadowing Ruan's own death, this one is dramatising the oppressive treatment of women in 30s Shanghai. There's no official DVD release in the west, but I am sure, that 'New Women' can be found in the backchannels and you also find it without proper subtitles on archive.org. But, as I've already pointed out, there's a valuable English film script and subtitles should be available on the internet (Drop me a PM, if you need a .srt file).

Oh, finally a short question @ knives:
Are there any English subtitles for Tapiovaara's 'Stolen Death' available?

[knives]

Oh, finally a short question @ knives:
Are there any English subtitles for Tapiovaara's 'Stolen Death' available?

Not to the best of my knowledge. The version that Swo kindly put up is the only version out there as far as I know.

Little Caesar is fun, but it crosses the line into camp too often for me. There's no way I can take "Is this the end.... of Rico?" seriously- whereas Scarface and The Public Enemy manage to be just as heightened (and darkly funny) without ever seeming silly. I didn't find The Public Enemy horrific, nor did it seem like any kind of reason not to be a gangster, though- for one thing, I'm not convinced that Cagney's character would have behaved any differently if he were a greengrocer or a truck driver. All the killing of Putty Nose seemed to get across, to me, was not to fuck with Jimmy Cagney.

I'm also somewhat spoiled here by the Sopranos- outside of a gangster context, the scene where they go and shoot the horse to avenge Nails would be horrific. In this context, it just seems stupid and funny, and very much like something that Christopher and Paulie Walnuts would do.

I agree it's goofy and no where close to being one of the best. As to the horrifying nature of Public Enemy, maybe I'm just more sensitive to this sort of context or something, but Wellman sets up a mood that rages terror in me. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, but things just seem to keep on building up to that finale that could have been prevented had he not been Cagney basically. I don't think there is a message and that might be why I find it all the more terrifying. He did all that horrible and evil stuff to no ends. He just died an other loser on the street with no name to be remembered by. There's a sense of that's the end of that that chills my spine more than the caring nature of the end to Angel's could ever do. That death matters, in The Public Enemy he ends with no consequences.

By the way if you think Cagney's a real psycho here for the '40s list you have to see White Heat. He's the daddy for every classic De Niro character and Mr. Blonde amongst many other an assorted nut.

[Cold Bishop]

I agree. The Public Enemy is the toughest of the big three. Little Caesar does go over-the-top too often, and has that early-sound creakiness. Scarface still retains Hawks patented sense of humor and fun. But Public Enemy... geez man, that finale could be plunked down in any present day hard R rated gangster film, shot-by-shot, and still retain its power.

As far as bleakness goes, it's still nothing on Afraid to Talk, which is a pre-coder I can't recommend enough.

[lubitsch]

All right, I suppose I'm in the obscure minority here, but so far I have 22 German (including two Austrian) films on the list, followed by 10 for France, 5 for the USA, and the rest rather evenly distributed (including one Czech film); most represented directors are Renoir and Sternberg with three each, with highest rank at #4 and #8, respectively. Only two silents. Most represented actors are Fritz Rasp and Lilian Harvey. Guys, you really need to see more European films

Unfortunately the Americans have taken over now and the resulting list will be correspondingly dull. 22 German films is like Wu.Qinghua's 7 Chinese very patriotic, but it won't help anyway. Disappointing to see all these mainstream discussions about gangster, horror, Marx Brothers and Cukor even though most here have access to a far broader selection of films.

[Wu.Qinghua]

All right, I suppose I'm in the obscure minority here, but so far I have 22 German (including two Austrian) films on the list, followed by 10 for France, 5 for the USA, and the rest rather evenly distributed (including one Czech film); most represented directors are Renoir and Sternberg with three each, with highest rank at #4 and #8, respectively. Only two silents. Most represented actors are Fritz Rasp and Lilian Harvey. Guys, you really need to see more European films

Unfortunately the Americans have taken over now and the resulting list will be correspondingly dull. 22 German films is like Wu.Qinghua's 7 Chinese very patriotic, but it won't help anyway. Disappointing to see all these mainstream discussions about gangster, horror, Marx Brothers and Cukor even though most here have access to a far broader selection of films.

Errrr ... I can't remember, that anyone has ever called me a 'patriot'. In fact, I have no 'ethnic' etc. ties to China, but I've got a German passport, too.

Anyway, I don't consider it to be patriotic or eccentric to pull together a list of favourite 30s movies with a strong presence of films, which have been produced in Shanghai in 1930/37. I guess, in the end, I will have reduced the amount of Chinese films on my list to 5-6, but imho those films will bear comparison with the more polished productions from bigger 'national' industries - at least, if you share my interest in socially significant and, broadly speaking, realist film-making.

Btw, I suppose, that, with China becoming a global player, the Chinese film production will be re-evaluted within the next years; one of the next steps in this process might be a retrospective, which will most probably take place in Berlin in spring 2012.

[knives]

So? If anything with everyone saying stuff like 20 or 17 American films us from the US have been far less nationalist than you Germans. It shouldn't matter where a film is from rather than how good it is. Plus what's wrong with gangster, horror, or the brothers Marx? Mad Love (which considering it's cast and crew might as well be European) is legitimately one of the best films I've encountered period. If you disagree fine, but that means nothing compared to the discussion and love others have expressed for it. If you really cared about your 'national cinema' then you should push it as hard as Tommaso has. We haven't heard a peep from you in a while.

Anyways it's not like there haven't been European and Japanese obscurities pushed. Shimizu and Naruse will compose a very large portion of my list not to mention that a total obscurity from Finland has been the lone film I've been pushing. We also have stuff like Rapt, which I highly recommend, which is a fairly unknown film that's been getting a few mentions.

Though you did make me think, are there any good movies featuring Elisha Cook from the decade?

[Gropius]

Unfortunately the Americans have taken over now and the resulting list will be correspondingly dull. 22 German films is like Wu.Qinghua's 7 Chinese very patriotic, but it won't help anyway. Disappointing to see all these mainstream discussions about gangster, horror, Marx Brothers and Cukor even though most here have access to a far broader selection of films.

I (another non-American) still intend to watch several of the films you recommended on the first page, including Morgen beginnt das Leben, but it is obviously the nature of consensus lists to eliminate obscurer titles. Also, I'm not sure what's wrong with discussing horror: are you implying an old-fashioned hierarchy of genres, with 'serious' drama at the top?

[tojoed]

Mad Love (which considering it's cast and crew might as well be European) is legitimately one of the best films I've encountered period]

I think many of us agree with you.
I've just been reading an old book about Orson Welles, in which Peter Bogdanovich, in attempt to discredit Pauline Kael, calls it "..one of the worst movies I've ever seen". Silly old Boggo.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Unfortunately the Americans have taken over now and the resulting list will be correspondingly dull. 22 German films is like Wu.Qinghua's 7 Chinese very patriotic, but it won't help anyway. Disappointing to see all these mainstream discussions about gangster, horror, Marx Brothers and Cukor even though most here have access to a far broader selection of films.

Well what better day than today to indulge in some anti-American sentiment. We can sneak up on them while they're letting off fireworks and don't get a chance to circle the wagons.
Personally I'll be running up the drapeau tricolore for the vast majority of the upper echelons with my first American born director (Browning for Freaks) coming through in the mid range as well as a long standing affection for Cukor's David Copperfield- perhaps irrationally given Freddie Bartholomew as the simpering eponymous hero.
Chaplin, Dieterle, Lang and Capra will also figure somewhere below too but unashamedly the decade belongs to Renoir, Gremillon, Kirsanoff, Duvivier, Carne and to a lesser degree Epstein.
La Petite Lise, La Belle Equipe and at least 2 more Duvivs 2 Renoirs and 2 Carnes still slugging it out for those podium places.
Re American films by exiles has anyone seen/commented on Dieterle's pre-code Scarlet Dawn with Fairbanks?

[Tommaso]

So? If anything with everyone saying stuff like 20 or 17 American films us from the US have been far less nationalist than you Germans.

I seriously object to be called 'nationalist', not primarily because few things could be further from my general thinking, but more in the interest of the films that I try to push. This has very little to do with the fact that these films come from Germany but with their quality and the fact that they form a body of work which is largely underappreciated (not least in Germany itself) although the late 20s/early 30s was perhaps the richest period of filmmaking for this country. I simply love that stuff, but I actually do like to hear more about films from China, Egypt (you name it) of the 30s, so thanks to Wu for talking about these Chinese films.

[lubitsch]

Errrr ... I can't remember, that anyone has ever called me a 'patriot'. In fact, I have no 'ethnic' etc. ties to China, but I've got a German passport, too.
Anyway, I don't consider it to be patriotic or eccentric to pull together a list of favourite 30s movies with a strong presence of films, which have been produced in Shanghai in 1930/37. I guess, in the end, I will have reduced the amount of Chinese films on my list to 5-6, but imho those films will bear comparison with the more polished productions from bigger 'national' industries - at least, if you share my interest in socially significant and, broadly speaking, realist film-making.
Btw, I suppose, that, with China becoming a global player, the Chinese film production will be re-evaluted within the next years; one of the next steps in this process might be a retrospective, which will most probably take place in Berlin in spring 2012.

That's mean to choose such a nick, writing about Chinese films and not being from China . A retrospective with good prints would be very, very wonderful. But after seeing fifteen Chinese films of the 30s I'd say that Chinese cinema of this era is a step behind the top countries. Almost all are a weird melange of outdated melodrama and attempts at realism and as far as I can see there's no visual genius among the Chinese director's of this era nor a really intelligent script writer. The Goddess, Crossroads, Daybreak and New Woman are the best of the bunch, but none would make a list of mine, the competition from the big countries is too stiff. However the two leading actresses of the era are indeed worth watching, Ruan Lingyu with her brooding, expressive acting and the lively Lili Li are stars of international calibre.

So? If anything with everyone saying stuff like 20 or 17 American films us from the US have been far less nationalist than you Germans. It shouldn't matter where a film is from rather than how good it is. Plus what's wrong with gangster, horror, or the brothers Marx? Mad Love (which considering it's cast and crew might as well be European) is legitimately one of the best films I've encountered period. If you disagree fine, but that means nothing compared to the discussion and love others have expressed for it. If you really cared about your 'national cinema' then you should push it as hard as Tommaso has. We haven't heard a peep from you in a while.
Anyways it's not like there haven't been European and Japanese obscurities pushed. Shimizu and Naruse will compose a very large portion of my list not to mention that a total obscurity from Finland has been the lone film I've been pushing. We also have stuff like Rapt, which I highly recommend, which is a fairly unknown film that's been getting a few mentions.

I've withdrawn from the list because I knew how this round would go. I just expressed my disappointment that the discussion is partly about films we really all know by heart. With the huge availability of films on DVD and internet it should have been be more beyond the established classics.
Like Tommaso I resent the nationalist bit, but "we Germans" (Serdar's, Tommaso's and my taste differ greatly I'd say) have to push "our" films because of their relative inavailability on DVD and TV compared to their quality. Japanese cinema was in a worse position a decade ago, but by now German films (by Hochbaum, Wisbar, Schünzel etc.) are the forgotten films of the decade. This evaluation has nothing whatsoever to do with my being German. I equally think French cinema of the 20s grossly underrated in film histories (though not in our list) and would like to point out that apparently almost nobody tried a Czech film of the 30s despite the avalanche of DVDs out there and the subs for Tonka Sibenice and Ze soboty na nedeli.
The Finnish film which I've requested and NeilMac1971 has found for us isn't even that obscure, it's e.g. on the BFI 360 film list http://www.listology.com/list/british-f ... 0-classics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , but as long as there are no subs, it has no chance, I'd love to see it finally myself.
I don't intend to sound Anti-American (at least not too much), it's just that the availability of US films plus they being well known anyway plus the high percentage of US Americans on this board bends the discussion heavily towards US and you end up enforcing the canon instead of questioning and enlarging it. Since much of film publishing is done in the US and the film histories show the lack of knowledge non English-films, I try to point out in a very confrontative and not very polite way that vital parts of this decade are missing.

[domino harvey]

Also Domino, I saw you mentioned you are voting for two Cukors, including Holiday of course, what's the other one?

The Women

And surprise, surprise, just when people were having fun in the thread, lubitsch comes around like a needlessly antagonistic fly buzzing around everyone else's picnic

[swo17]

As far as bleakness goes, it's still nothing on Afraid to Talk, which is a pre-coder I can't recommend enough.

Ditto. This one is a little harder to come by and only available in a dodgy copy but is definitely worth seeking out. Anyone unable to find a copy on their own, PM me.

lubitsch, I don't see why there can't be room for discussion of everything here. If someone brings up a film you already know and have made up your mind about, feel free to ignore it. If no one is discussing something you find highly underrated, it's probably because most of us haven't heard of it. Please make your case for these films in a way that makes others want to seek them out immediately (i.e. the recommendation for Svengali yesterday). I feel I've been trying to encourage this kind of discussion from the beginning, and several members here have contributed immensely in this regard. Just last night I watched Tommaso's two spotlight titles and found them both to be incredibly good. I really do hope people are taking advantage of all the great obscure recommendations being made here, but I don't see how also discussing Marx brothers films on the side negates any of this.

[knives]

Mad Love (which considering it's cast and crew might as well be European) is legitimately one of the best films I've encountered period]

I think many of us agree with you.
I've just been reading an old book about Orson Welles, in which Peter Bogdanovich, in attempt to discredit Pauline Kael, calls it "..one of the worst movies I've ever seen". Silly old Boggo.

I know, but Lubitsch's comment on horror needed to be disproved and what better choice is there?

So? If anything with everyone saying stuff like 20 or 17 American films us from the US have been far less nationalist than you Germans.

I seriously object to be called 'nationalist', not primarily because few things could be further from my general thinking, but more in the interest of the films that I try to push. This has very little to do with the fact that these films come from Germany but with their quality and the fact that they form a body of work which is largely underappreciated (not least in Germany itself) although the late 20s/early 30s was perhaps the richest period of filmmaking for this country. I simply love that stuff, but I actually do like to hear more about films from China, Egypt (you name it) of the 30s, so thanks to Wu for talking about these Chinese films.

Ditto you, I should have kept in my comment about it not meaning to be a comment on you since you've never been disrespectful in the way that Lubitsch's comments were.

[Mr Sausage]

Also Domino, I saw you mentioned you are voting for two Cukors, including Holiday of course, what's the other one?

The Women

And surprise, surprise, just when people were having fun in the thread, lubitsch comes around like a needlessly antagonistic fly buzzing around everyone else's picnic

Well really now, Domino, how dare you guys talk about the films you want to talk about and not the films that Lubitsch wants you to talk about? Did any of you actually consider his feelings before you went and tried to enjoy a discussion about the films you liked?

I don't want to see any more of this "free discussion" of '30s films stuff. No more fun, either. We didn't make this thread so members could have fun.

[Tommaso]

I've withdrawn from the list because I knew how this round would go.

It might have gone different if you hadn't withdrawn. Serdar has never been an active poster on this forum (though he assured me he would hand in a list), but your input has been very helpful in making me seek out a lot of obscure titles for the 20s list, and of course for finding those rare gems of the 30s. I would have probably ignored lots of Machaty, for instance, because after only knowing "Ekstase" I wouldn't have thought that this director was as great as he actually is. Needless to say that Ze soboty a nedeli (aka "From Saturday to Sunday") figures rather high on my list, and Anton's Tonka has been a strong contender at least. And the taste difference that you rightly note may be another indication for the diversity and richness of the German or generally European cinema of the time.

I don't see why there can't be room for discussion of everything here. If someone brings up a film you already know and have made up your mind about, feel free to ignore it. If no one is discussing something you find highly underrated, it's probably because most of us haven't heard of it.

That's probably true, but compared to the two silent lists the discussion so far centered more on things generally available. Which may simply be a result of many more people participating. As to Svengali: I like it, but it's a bit too derivative (much influenced by German expressionism, especially "Caligari) to really blow me off my socks. As someone wanted a recommendation for a good dvd: take the one from Roan, which looks quite fine. Unfortunately it's now only available as an 'archive' DVDR; my old disc is still factory pressed. And of course the Marx Brothers' films are brilliant (at least the early ones), but given the richness of this decade, they won't make my list (like about another 60 or 70 films which are clearly 'A' material).

Just last night I watched Tommaso's two spotlight titles and found them both to be incredibly good.

I know, but Lubitsch's comment on horror needed to be disproved and what better choice is there?

Richard Oswald's Unheimliche Geschichten? One of the rare cases in which I find the sound remake (well, more or less) better than the silent original by the same director. A great role for 'Golem' Paul Wegener, and - as I said elsewhere - the closest the German cinema of the time ever came to doing something like the Universal Horror Classics. Both in terms of atmosphere and in terms of the slightly 'pulpy' character.

[knives]

Will certainly check it out, though there seems to be no subs lurking about. A lot of these last minute recommendations are coming in.

[swo17]

compared to the two silent lists the discussion so far centered more on things generally available. Which may simply be a result of many more people participating.

Indeed, with a month to go in the 1920s list, we had only filled eleven pages of that thread. I personally prefer hearing recommendations from more people (including lubitsch), especially since there's no constraint on the total amount of discussion we can have. Everyone comes to these projects with different backgrounds and so we shouldn't presume that certain films are too established in the canon to merit discussion. I don't know how many of my provisional top 50 might be considered "too mainstream" but there are 30 of them that I'd never seen before this project started and so they are great recent discoveries for me, even if some of them have been readily available for years. Bear in mind, our recommendations serve little purpose if there aren't eager and receptive film novices out there to take us up on them.

[Murdoch]

Well this thread has taken a turn for the worst.

[domino harvey]

Well, that's the Lubitsch Touch we've heard so much about

[zedz]

Well, that's the Lubitsch Touch we've heard so much about

(rimshot)

Goes to show how things can change overnight. And getting the conversation back to ME, my list has also undergone something of a shift, with three new films appearing after just a cursory read back through this thread. Two are shorts, one's silent, and one's from a country that wasn't previously represented on my list. One I watched for the first time (on YouTube); one I watched for the second (because I didn't remember it being as fascinating as the description in this thread); and one I'd previously forgotten about entirely.

[knives]

Now you've got me curious at least to what the two shorts are.

[zedz]

Swing You Sinners and Glen Falls Sequence. The latter is an imdb refugee, since at least some parts of the film weren't completed until the 40s, but it's listed as 1937, so it's eligible. It's a grab bag of animation fragments, and they're of variable quality, but the good stuff is rather amazing and very original. Both of these deserve to be in the lower reaches of my list.

The third film was Ecstasy. I suddenly remembered Machaty, as From Saturday to Sunday had figured on my list last time but had dropped off because I didn't remember it in great detail. So I looked up the notes I took during a small Machaty retrospective in 1995 and to my surprise found out that Ecstasy had been the real stand-out back then. Fortunately I'd included enough information to remind me why I felt that way and to clarify that scenes I'd been attributing to Erotikon actually came from Ecstasy, so in it goes.

And, in the course of writing this - or more to the point, in the course of typing "From Saturday to Sunday" - I realised that I'd unforgivably omitted People on Sunday, so there's another silent for the tally.

[swo17]

Glen Falls Sequence. The latter is an imdb refugee, since at least some parts of the film weren't completed until the 40s, but it's listed as 1937, so it's eligible.

Just to thicken the plot, it's listed as 1937 because I submitted it that way! Though we had already established it as eligible before I did that.