The Lists Project

[swo17]

I don't think it's short films by themselves but rather the anthologizing of a collection of short segments that constitutes a revue. For example, Fantasia.

So in short, no to Thriller but...yes to Captain EO?

[zedz]

Sigh.

Short films are eligible, but the point about musicals, which you could have found by reading a few posts up, is that they are by definition (or so the argument goes - though the real musical discussion hasn't officially started yet) long-form narratives.

Further to the 'Thriller' issue (and music videos in general), I personally don't think it's tenable to classify any film that contains only a single song as a musical, no matter how much narrative window-dressing is applied.

EDIT: sigh directed at Nothing, not at the intervening commenters!

[knives]

It's been years since I've seen it, but didn't 1775 only keep in two or three numbers?

[Matt]

[Insert joke about 1776 having one more number]

[knives]

Well it has been since grade school since I saw it.

[colinr0380]

So for example Daft Punk's Interstella 5555 or Jackson's own Moonwalker would presumably be eligble as they are features containing more than one song, even if the primary purpose of both works is to showcase the music sometimes to the detriment of narrative coherence, whereas individual music videos would not be eligible. I guess some question arises both over the 'name director' issue surrounding Landis or Scorsese as well as the way that Thriller was treated at the time as if it were a mini-film, as I remember Bad and Black or White also being (Not to mention Ghosts!), with even Macaulay Culkin drafted in at the height of his fame to do a role in the Black or White video.

I personally have no issues with people voting for whatever they wish in these lists, although I do think that maybe we should do the Shorts list again sometime (where music videos, short films, YouTube videos etc all get their moment in the limelight without having to compete against features), and maybe one specifically for TV too that could help address these issues.

[zedz]

So for example Daft Punk's Interstella 5555 or Jackson's own Moonwalker would presumably be eligble as they are features containing more than one song, even if the primary purpose of both works is to showcase the music sometimes to the detriment of narrative coherence.

I'm not familiar with those particular films, but "narrative coherence" might be setting the bar too high for any number of classic musicals!

Also, if we do tackle musicals next, it struck me that we'd be appraoching a third kind of genre, not just a third genre. Film noir is a genre primarily defined by style - i.e. a film can fall within the genre despite its 'surface genre' (women's picture, crime film, western) as long as it has the right look and approach. The Western is a genre primarily defined by content - i.e. a western can accommodate all manner of styles and approaches as long as it has a particular setting. And the Musical is a genre primarily defined by form - i.e. if a film contains enough songs, presented in a genre-appropriate manner, it's a musical. That's why I think Altman's requirement that it also be a romance is dubious. Even if it describes 99% of classic Hollywood musicals, I don't think a content constraint should be essential to the genre. If you can imagine a Singin' in the Rain that's just about filmmaking, with the Debbie Reynolds character removed, why would that suddenly cease to be a musical? Ditto The Band Wagon, with Cyd Charisse as simply a fellow professional that Fred Astaire has to figure out how to work with, rather than a love interest?

[domino harvey]

I'm only using his "feature-length narrative" distinction for the purposes of eligibility, so let's not open any more contentious doors right now...

[colinr0380]

I presume that Derek Jarman's Jubilee counts as a musical? Even one without romance! Though this may be opening a whole new can of worms! (Sorry domino!)

[Nothing]

Actually, upon consideration, I would tend to agree that a musical needs at least 2 or 3 songs (excluding therefore quirky throw-in-everything-but-the-kitchen-sink melanges like The Wayward Cloud or, say, Bande a Part). These songs must also be foregrounded and the lead performers must perform to the songs in some manner, dancing or singing.

Some ambiguity does, however, emerge when one starts to think about concert films, or narrative films with sequences based around a concert setting (eg. The Bill & Ted movies, which I wouldn't personally consider musicals either).

Note, I say this purely in reference to what can be considered part of the musical genre (just as I have argued that Viva Zapata! is not a western), not in terms of what should/shouldn't be eligible for the list project itself - eg. imho, Glee would be eligible, although so horrendous that hopefully no-one would actually vote for it. And, of course, there are bound to be exceptions that one could argue either way.

[knives]

How is The Wayward Cloud not a musical? There are several song and dance numbers performed by characters in a way that influences the story. If that's not musical then I'm really confused.

[swo17]

imho, Glee would be eligible

You're clearly just taking the piss at this point, right? Where you draw the line between something being a musical and not being a musical is a matter of opinion. What is eligible for consideration in the lists is not. Barring some great change in the status quo that is agreed upon by most posters, TV series and episodes of TV shows are not eligible. When you keep bringing this stuff up (and even about shows that you have no intention of voting for) you confuse things for people that are new to the lists projects and aren't yet familiar with the rules. Knock it off.

[Nothing]

How is The Wayward Cloud not a musical? There are several song and dance numbers performed by characters in a way that influences the story. If that's not musical then I'm really confused.

I could only recall one number, in a public toilet or something, but it's been a while since I saw it (very silly film).... Okay, another not-a-musical example: Rio Bravo.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Barring some great change in the status quo that is agreed upon by most posters, TV series and episodes of TV shows are not eligible.

Just registering a little, non-lobbyist, lament that the Dennis Potter series (Pennies from Heaven and The Singing Detective) are not eligible. Resnais' Potter hommage (french for plagiarism) 'On Connait la Chanson' is. If I can muster up a list it wont be near the summit but will probably make the nursery slopes.
Mind you, if it was good enough for Resnais......

[knives]

Well you could vote for their remakes. Don't know if they're good, but you could vote for them.

[Cold Bishop]

Miniseries are eligible

[Sloper]

I'm pretty sure the Potter mini-series are eligible: it seems to be this 'mini-series exception' that has caused a (fairly localised) controversy. In a way Nothing is right that the distinctions are arbitrary, but so are all distinctions in the realm of art (what is a film? am I a film? can I vote for my cat (who is very musical)?). For an exercise like this, I'd have thought most people would agree that Pennies from Heaven (which I would vote for if I submitted a list) should be eligible, but Glee should not. I'd also have thought that the 'vote for it' rule makes all of this irrelevant, and to avoid inconvenience for the tabulator you could just insist that anyone voting for a TV series (such as Deadwood) can only vote for it in its entirety, not for individual seasons/episodes. It might be interesting to see how many people on the board consider TV series worthy of being ranked alongside films. Just my suggestion; apologies if it's been made already by someone else.

[Nothing]

Without wishing to step on any more sacred cows, this whole 'orphans' thing strikes me as just about as un-useful as the 'no series television rule', if not more so. If one considers that nine people might rank a film 51st and one person rank it 1st and it still won't register, whereas just 2 people could rank a film 50th and it would register, that doesn't seem representative to me. And beyond hypotheticals, why should one person's opinion have to be confirmed by another person's opinion to be valid? It seems very strange, especially when there may not be that many people responding to the poll. Ultimately, what purpose does this rule serve other than to emphasise and reward consensus choices?

[domino harvey]

Why do we have to stop at red lights and go at green lights? It's soo arbitrary!

[Nothing]

Why do we have to stop at red lights and go at green lights? It's soo arbitrary!

And yet you must admit it is a strange rule. I haven't seen it implemented elsewhere.

btw, do you also post the individual lists? This would be more interesting than the master list in the way (especially if folks added an optional sentence or two about their choices).

[Lighthouse]

Without wishing to step on any more sacred cows, this whole 'orphans' thing strikes me as just about as un-useful as the 'no series television rule', if not more so. If one considers that nine people might rank a film 51st and one person rank it 1st and it still won't register, whereas just 2 people could rank a film 50th and it would register, that doesn't seem representative to me. And beyond hypotheticals, why should one person's opinion have to be confirmed by another person's opinion to be valid? It seems very strange, especially when there may not be that many people responding to the poll. Ultimately, what purpose does this rule serve other than to emphasise and reward consensus choices?

Means if one film is only named once (even if at # 1 in that list) it won't be counted?

Doesn't make any sense to me.
I assume the counting is done by 50 points for #1 down to 1 point for # 50? Otherwise a ranking isn't necessary anyway.
I think every film should be counted, only for just seeing what was named. Such a poll is representable only for the higher ranks anyway. It doesn't hurt to have these "orphans" in.

[domino harvey]

For the millionth time, we're glad to see people new to the Lists Projects making contributions, but you should really familiarize yourself with the procedure before raising such a tired ruckus.

[Mr Sausage]

For the millionth time, we're glad to see people new to the Lists Projects making contributions, but you should really familiarize yourself with the procedure before raising such a tired ruckus.

We really ought to have a dedicated List Project Rules and Procedures thread to prevent this nonsense in the future. Would you (or anyone else) like to make that thread? Once posted, one of the mods can make it a sticky.

[swo17]

I'd be happy to help with that.

[Mr Sausage]

I'd be happy to help with that.

Great. Start whenever you want. Format, ect., is entirely up to you.