The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[zedz]

First viewing of Junior Bonner . . . (halfway through watching it I looked into the availability of Nicholas Ray's 'The Lusty Men', and was disappointed)

I love Junior Bonner, though not as much as The Lusty Men, but I wouldn't classify either as a western, since they're present-day. They borrow a lot from the iconography of the western, sure, but then so does Star Wars.

[HistoryProf]

I hope to view a number of westerns i've had on the wishlist for years for this project, but I've not yet participated in one as I never felt all that qualified to. but this is a particular love of mine and hits my historical interests right in the bosom....I've looked through the other threads a bit, but is it simply a matter of compiling a list off-site and posting as you view new films if you get the urge to discuss them? I'd like to think I have something to add here, and am most excited about the topic

[HistoryProf]

Just to start, my initial gut response for provisional #1 is a tie between Outlaw Josey Wales and McCabe and Mrs. Miller. The former is just such a pure distillation of the genre to me, and is, in my opinion, Clint's best film. I can't quite say why McCabe is so high, but I've just loved it from the moment I saw it...the Leonard Cohen soundtrack is just downright beautiful, and the classic Altman artifacts of sound pervading each scene combined with Vilmos Zsigmond's eerily diffused cinematography just melted me. I only wish we had it on blu-ray in a full restoration (and Josey is coming in June!)

[Yojimbo]

First viewing of Junior Bonner . . . (halfway through watching it I looked into the availability of Nicholas Ray's 'The Lusty Men', and was disappointed)

I love Junior Bonner, though not as much as The Lusty Men, but I wouldn't classify either as a western, since they're present-day. They borrow a lot from the iconography of the western, sure, but then so does Star Wars.

There was just so much stereotyping in it for me, zedz; both of character and situation. Although for me Peckinpah is second only to Ford in the pantheon of Western directors, too much of this smacked of him in cruise control.
I think I might have The Lusty Men on a vhs recording from the television, though, and I suspect I'll rank it higher than Bonner, also.
I think the modern-day rodeo men, or at least through the early 70's, are the natural throwback to the prototypical Westerner loner, and, if for that very reason alone, deserve consideration in any best Westerns list.

[HistoryProf]

There are westerns situated in Canada, aren't there? I can't recall any, but I gotta think....

One I'm struggling to recall is really bugging me, maybe someone here can help? I'm 99% positive it's a Randolph Scott picture and it's set in Canada - he's a lawman who is bringing back an outlaw but they get caught in heavy snows and spend much of the film struggling through the winter tempest and dealing with wolves and the like. I saw it on TCM a year or two ago and loved it. I've looked through Scott's IMDB page and nothing seems to match the memories, but I know for certain it was set in either Canada or Alaska - oh, and was in Color so probably mid 1950s give or take. anyone have an idea?

[jbaart]

There are westerns situated in Canada, aren't there? I can't recall any, but I gotta think....

One I'm struggling to recall is really bugging me, maybe someone here can help? I'm 99% positive it's a Randolph Scott picture and it's set in Canada - he's a lawman who is bringing back an outlaw but they get caught in heavy snows and spend much of the film struggling through the winter tempest and dealing with wolves and the like. I saw it on TCM a year or two ago and loved it. I've looked through Scott's IMDB page and nothing seems to match the memories, but I know for certain it was set in either Canada or Alaska - oh, and was in Color so probably mid 1950s give or take. anyone have an idea?

Can't really help you with that one but I can think of at least one western set in Canada right away. Saskatchewan by Raoul Walsh. Own it on a lovely German DVD but unfortunately haven't seen it yet.

You might want to take a look at this list, maybe it helps.

[HistoryProf]

Nothing on that list...but it was a good reminder to watch Trail of '98 finally. I've had that in the wishlist forever it seems. Saskatchewan is streaming on Netflix right now too, so easy access there. For what it's worth, I've put the following in my streaming queue, a lot of good stuff and many mentioned here already:

Yellow Sky
Rio Bravo
Broken Lance
Destry Rides Again
Terror in a Texas Town
The Culpepper Cattle Company
The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid
The Return of Frank James
The True Story of Jesse James
The Bravados
One Eyed Jacks
Django
Ace High
The Hired Hand
Saskatchewan
Seminole Uprising
The Savage
Horizons West
Tall Man Riding
The King and Four Queens
Randolph Scott Triple Feature
Duel at Diablo
The Naked Spur
Winchester '73
The Jayhawkers!
Dakota Incident
The Battle at Apache Pass
Flaming Feather
Pawnee
The Lawless Breed
Calamity Jane
Silverado
The Man from Snowy River
Vengeance Valley
The Bounty Hunter
Wichita
McLintock!
Frank & Jesse
The Stalking Moon
Westbound
Cowboy
The Scalphunters
The Hills Run Red
Gun the Man Down
Young Billy Young
The Law and Jake Wade
Belle of the Yukon
Four Faces West
Thunder in the Sun
My Name Is Nobody
Sometimes a Great Notion
Miracle at Sage Creek
Bandolero!
The Only Good Indian
South of Heaven, West of Hell
Duck, You Sucker
Breakheart Pass
Navajo Joe

[Gregory]

But wait, there's more!
Anybody have strong recommendations for any of the following?
...The Last Wagon...
White Feather

Since no one chimed in to support these here, I'll recommend viewing them, especially as the price is right. The Last Wagon in particular is a fine film. And as I'm watching the Boetticher/Scott viewing thread gather steam (justified and well deserved) I'd point out that, if I were planning to submit a westerns list, I would be rewatching all of Delmer Daves's westerns, which I would argue form something of a coherent whole, including White Feather, which he wrote but did not direct.

[HistoryProf]

long day on the couch w/ the roku box humming along offerings streaming from Netflix....

Yellow Sky just might have become entrenched in the top 10. Holy cow. The only thing that can break a man quicker than gold is a good woman, and this has both in spades. Peck is his usual self, as is Widmark, with some great Death Valley scenery and nice turns by all the supporting cast in the "gang" (and I always chuckle seeing a young Colonel Potter in films like this), there's really nothing not to like here. It has it all, a pretty girl, gold, a man in a black shirt and one in white - but they just might have to trade - the omnipresent threat of those dastardly Apaches, and a life or death struggle vs. the unrelenting western environment. What a flick!

Rio Bravo will probably sneak into the top 20...it's a great film, but less a western. and for me Ricky Nelson singing w/ Dean isn't just filler, it destroys the film for half an hour and makes me want to turn it off every time. Only thing that saves it is Walter Brennen and the young and delightful Angie Dickinson - and I still don't believe that's really her. For me, there's just a few too many winks from Wayne, and it too often feels like a glimpse into the cool kids club movie project. Yet at the same time it's otherwise an extremely well made and paced (sans musical interludes) film. I think someone earlier said that Bravo was the better film, and Red River the better Western...I think that sums it up nicely. The final act is among the best showdowns in the genre.

Vengeance Valley has Burt Lancaster as the hero of sorts dealing with a conniving "foster brother" (Robert Walker - typically smarmy) and helps to cover up his adulterous baby-making affair. Started slow but improved along the way, with Lancaster being particularly good here, and i'm not a big fan of his. The finale is all too predictable, but there's enough fun to recommend it, even if it isn't greatness. What caught my eye in the netflix blurb was the description of VV as a great example of the "Mature Westerns" Hollywood was churning out in the late 50s. By that I can only guess they mean the whole bastard child/adultery plot.

Broken Lance was the oddest of the selections I watched today. Spencer Tracy is the patriarch of a ranch he built from scratch, w/ three sons from his first wife, and a half-breed malcontent as son #4 by his 2nd bride - an Indian (who's also apparently Mexican). The ranch is being threatened by environmental contamination from a nearby Copper Mine, oil interests trying to get their land, and other ominous "Easterners" who just don't understand the life of a REAL rancher like Tracy (!). Frankly, for as much content as there is w/ respect to Indians and cattle, this felt the least "western" of anything i've seen in a while. It's much more a generational family drama, w/ some big business foils thrown in. It could have been similarly told in a NY bakery w/ a big bread co wanting to buy them out, the patriarch refusing, and the oldest son resenting his father's lack of attention to him and remarrying that dark Italian woman willing to sell. Widmark again succeeds as the resolute eldest son, and we get a bit of social consciousness w/ the half-breed son falling in love with the daughter of the Governor (who clearly doesn't want her daughter to be spoiled by the dirty Indian), but otherwise not much happens beyond family infighting. Good - not great.

In the end, I think my palate was refined a bit too much by opening with Yellow Sky, which really is a nearly perfect Western. I can't believe it took me this long to see it...but I will for sure be picking it up asap. If this process uncovers nothing better, it will all still have been worth it for that alone.

[zedz]

Finally watched Hawks' Rio Lobo on the weekend, and it was much better than I'd been led to believe. The retread of Rio Bravo is confined to the last twenty minutes, which makes it some kind of fascinating reflexive joke - and quite a sweet way to cap a career, as if all the characters have somehow found their way into the same Howard Hawks film. Female lead Jennifer O'Neill gives a jarringly anachronistic performance, in a completely different register to the other actors. It's not a bad performance per se, it's just really weird in this context, but I liked this effect and it added to the playful tone. Unlikely to make my list, but worth a look.

The other 'western' I watched, mainly to determine whether or not I wanted to count it as a western, was Black God, White Devil. It'll be unlike any other western on my list, but that's more because it's unlike any other film on my list, not because it lacks the genre bona fides. It's easy enough to translate the basic story into a standard western:

Exploited cowherd inadvertently kills landowner, goes on the lam with his wife. Hooks up with preacher, who in turn riles up the establishment in the area and has a black-hatted bounty hunter sent after him. Preacher and followers are slaughtered, but our runaway couple escape and hook up with another outsider, a bandit. The bounty hunter is then sent after the bandit, kills him, and the couple continue their flight. . .

Unless you find the sertão an unacceptable substitute for Arizona (and for my money the setting is one of the most 'western' elements of the film), there's only Rocha's inimitable layering of complex and contradictory (Marxist / mystical) meaning and radical style to rule it out. But the style is what makes it such a great and inexhaustable film, intelligently and purposefully disjunctive in all manner of ways, slamming smooth tracking shots up against entranced hand-held camera or jump-cut montages. In terms of sound mixing and use of music alone, the film's still a treasure trove of fresh ideas. I love the way the grandiose Villa-Lobos music is grafted onto different scenes, in counterpoint to stark silence, bells of doom, the downbeat 'Antonio das Mortes' ballad that provides the film's narration, or the sampled Hollywood gunshot(s) that acts as ironic punctuation.

[Yojimbo]

I'd certainly consider including Glauber Rochas films in my Western list; there are many similarities with 'spaghettis' in both 'Black God' and 'Antonio'.
Which reminds me; I'd need to check out the third Glauber Rocha I bought recently, although that may not be as 'Western'

[zedz]

I'd certainly consider including Glauber Rochas films in my Western list; there are many similarities with 'spaghettis' in both 'Black God' and 'Antonio'.
Which reminds me; I'd need to check out the third Glauber Rocha I bought recently, although that may not be as 'Western'

If it was Terra em transe, definitely not. It's only the two Antonio das Mortes films that seem to be deliberately 'in genre'.

[Yojimbo]

I'd certainly consider including Glauber Rochas films in my Western list; there are many similarities with 'spaghettis' in both 'Black God' and 'Antonio'.
Which reminds me; I'd need to check out the third Glauber Rocha I bought recently, although that may not be as 'Western'

If it was Terra em transe, definitely not. It's only the two Antonio das Mortes films that seem to be deliberately 'in genre'.

That sounds like it; I didn't think it would qualify from the synopsis I recalled.
btw I've got a VHS tv recording of a wonderful 1960's (West)German Western, filmed in Yugoslavia, which I might include in my list, if for no other reason than diversity, although its quite fun
(I've just ordered 'Backlash' so eagerly looking forward to checking out Dom's 'leftfield' contender!)

[HistoryProf]

Gregory Peck Double bill today:

started with Bravados - a classic revenge tale w/ the tall dark stranger showing up in a sleepy town to witness the hanging of men he believes to be responsible for the rape and murder of his wife. Peck is excellent here, and Joan Collins even gives a nice turn. Most of the violence is off screen as you would expect in 1958, but the themes are nevertheless very much PG-13. Lee Van Cleef is one of the bad guys, but should have had more face time. A good solid effort, but not much to allow it to stand above the crowd.

Stalking Moon is another story altogether. It's really more of a horror film than a western in a lot of ways. Begins w/ Peck leading the army to a rogue band of Apaches during the 1880s round ups to force them all onto the San Carlos reservation. As they line them up they discover a blonde woman (eve marie-saint) with her half-breed boy." She is terrified and we slowly learn why: Her husband is a chief in the tribe and will stop at nothing to get his family back. Peck unwittingly ends up in the middle of it after innocently offering to get her to a stage so she can get away quickly. Peck's best friend is another 'breed' played by Robert Forster - who I have to say I liked more than any other 'breed' character than i've ever seen. He plays it perfectly, without the revisionist nonsensical love of his savior the white man and all that. He's loyal, but not blind. There's a great exchange between Forster and Peck about the boy. Even better, though, is the final showdown with the faceless tormentor - and it's here where we shift into Alien territory. A man who is capable of killing and quietly escaping without being seen, while also being relentless. I think this was the last film Peck did with Robert Mulligan, and it definitely feels like a bridge between the traditional westerns of the 50s and earlier and the more mature and darker westerns that come after it. The soundtrack in particular was very 70s and again really evoked the horror feel of the showdown.

Frankly I expected to like Bravados better, but I have to give the nod to Stalking Moon. It will be towards the bottom of the top 50, but I think it's in there.

One caveat to mention is the Netflix version is P&S and it appears it's supposed to be 2.35:1 - does anyone know if the 2008 dvd release was actually P&S? it's not clear from the amazon reviews, some of which complain, but the description gives the correct aspect ratio.

[domino harvey]

The DVD is def 'Scope. Can't say I liked it anywhere near the amount you did, or at all even

[HistoryProf]

can you explain why?

[cysiam]

Rawhide: Four escaped cons led by Hugh Marlowe hold a stagecoach stop hostage. It's a surprisingly dark film marred by a hokey intro and end. The two leads (hero and villain) are bland and pretty much ineffectual. The supporting cast saves the film, especially crazy-eyed Jack Elam, who completely steals the show with a slimy depraved performance.

Spoiler

that climaxes with him firing shots at a scared toddler

I found Susan Hayward's character to play out more like the typical western hero. I'm not sure if this was intended or of it's just a product of her outclassing Tyrone Power but it's an interesting change of pace nonetheless.

[Yojimbo]

The DVD is def 'Scope. Can't say I liked it anywhere near the amount you did, or at all even

Just received my 'Backlash' today so steel yourself for an imminent backlash, if I don't agree with your rave, Dom!

[Yojimbo]

Just watched 'Backlash'.
Good script, as one would expect from Borden Chase; a cut above the Western staple, although the 'Greek tragedy' elements aren't so unusual.

The ending was well flagged for me, but, because of its all-round quality, I had no difficulty sticking with it.
Sturges made great use of the widescreen and there's a good variety of locations and incidents.

Widmark was particularly strong, as was John McIntire, who I seem to have seen in quite a wide variety of roles in the past year.
Donna Reed looked quite fetching, whether ladylike, or in black-trousered bad-girl mode, and she confirmed my good taste in having a schoolboy crush on her.
I still can't reconcile Henry Morgan as MASH's Col. Potter with the punks and gunslingers that he played in the 40s and 50s, but he did well enough here
And was that Liberace who played the prototypical snivelling black-garbed gunslinger?

Not one of the great Westerns but a welcome addition to my collection, and might just make the lower reaches of my 50

[Nothing]

Okay zedz, put it this way:

By the early 60s, more westerns had been made than one could count. Yet Leone was the first (and most significant) director of Marxist westerns. This being the case, it is surely incorrect to label the politics of his films "obvious" - the name-checking of Hollywood liberals like Mann and Zinnemann being nothing but obfuscation.

[zedz]

Huh? I suppose that makes sense in a screwy kind of way if you only get your politics from Hollywood westerns (and happened to miss the ones that critiqued capitalism), but it doesn't say anything about the sophistication or depth of Leone's political analysis, which is what my criticism was 'obviously' about. But I think the real question here is: who namechecked Zinnemann?

[Nothing]

But I think you're criticising Leone precisely because you find his Marxist politics to be "obvious". You demand the "sophistication" of a liberal argument when this is not the intention.

To which there is surely no better repost than the quote from Mao used by Leone at the head of Gui La Testa:

A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

[Mr Sausage]

If a revolution is not writing an essay or painting a picture, why is it making a movie? And if it's not, why shouldn't the movie be criticized for lacking refinement and sophistication and whatever else since unlike a revolution it is perfectly capable of having all of those things?

Frankly the marxist elements of Leone's films have always been their least interesting and original elements. His films have always been more interesting for their mythmaking and intertextuality. Leone anyway is not much interested in crowds: he fills his frame with large shots of individuals, prefers to work with, and give his sympathy to, archetypes of individuality and self-reliance who are eventually and unfortunately left behind by the progress of history, and he is fascinated by ritual and its capacity to generate meaning (his concern with highly structured and artificial duels taking place within circular environments or edited to create a circular sense of space being the largest instance of ritualization in his work).

The marxism in Leone's film is there because his screenwriters worked it in as Zapata westerns had become popular draws. Other than that, there is little value to it.

[Nothing]

If a revolution is not writing an essay or painting a picture, why is it making a movie?

Of course, the statement is somewhat contradictory - Mao was hardly unwise to the value of propaganda. Propaganda, however, is not subtle, and Leone's films and the Zapata westerns that followed were a form of populist propaganda, contributions to the global workers revolution that many at the time believed to be inevitable.

Frankly the marxist elements of Leone's films have always been their least... original elements.

Because the western was such a tediously Marxist genre before Leone came along?

Leone... is not much interested in crowds: he fills his frame with large shots of individuals

It is a common misconception that communism ignores the value of individual achivement. The contribution made by every individual to the wider good is paramount, and individual acts of heroism, productivity, leadership, etc, are widely celebrated in communist states.

[knives]

Frankly the marxist elements of Leone's films have always been their least... original elements.

Because the western was such a tediously Marxist genre before Leone came along?

That's not what Sausage said though. He said that they were the least interesting elements. removing that word interesting unfairly and drastically changes the meaning of what he said. The phrasing of original is ambiguous in his original post, but I took it to mean that those elements were executed in an unoriginal way for what was going on at the time. This part is my words, but as far as how he was doing it compared to the rest of Europe and particularly Italy there is nothing unique of note or interest in the politics of his films.