The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[zedz]

Wagon Master, as some of you might remember, I actually hated, and I have similar feelings towards the Far Country, though it's been so long since I've seen it all I can remember and contribute to debate about it the memory of my strong negative reaction upon first viewing. The Tall T had the same prurient attitude towards violence that I found so objectionable in the Hitch-hiker, so much so that I still haven't bothered with the other four films in the set, though I will get to them in time for this list. Too many people who I respect have raved on the Boetticher/Scott collabs to not overcome my bad first encounter.

I'm going to be revisiting both the Mann / Stewart and Boetticher / Scott cycles in order. If anybody else feels like doing the same, maybe we should synchronize our viewings - both sets of films deserve their own threads if they don't already have them.

My least favourite of the Mann / Stewarts at the moment is Bend of the River, because it seemed to me the most ordinary, with The Far Country next lowest. I don't know what your specific reservations about it were, domino, but for me it feels like the nastiness and cynicism of the film - while bracing - is the most schematic of any of the films in the cycle.

I don't think your attitude to Boetticher / Scott will survive full exposure, somehow. Even though the narrative components of the films are consistent and constrained - the films are like ikebana: minimalist and artful juxtapositions of a few key elements - they vary wildly in tone from joky to dour, with varying degrees of success. And don't forget you'll have to venture outside the set (and into the dreaded archive) to get the two missing pieces of the puzzle: Seven Men from Now and Westbound.

[domino harvey]

I'm going to be revisiting both the Mann / Stewart and Boetticher / Scott cycles in order. If anybody else feels like doing the same, maybe we should synchronize our viewings - both sets of films deserve their own threads if they don't already have them.

I'm definitely game for the Boetticher/Scott films, and they're so short, so they'd be easily shoehorned into even a busy schedule! I might join in on Stewart/Mann, but I'm definitely still in the panic mode of needing to see a ton of films before I start revisiting old favorites (and less than favorites!)

I regret that I'm not teaching a film class next semester, because that's how I was able to write off revisiting a lot of old favorites-- though I might show this class the Naked Spur during the upcoming last week. There's a running joke in our class about how even though she's not that important an actress, Janet Leigh keeps showing up in a lot of the films we watch (more than any other actress, actually) and it'd be a fun topper.

[Yojimbo]

I'm going to be revisiting both the Mann / Stewart and Boetticher / Scott cycles in order. If anybody else feels like doing the same, maybe we should synchronize our viewings - both sets of films deserve their own threads if they don't already have them.

My least favourite of the Mann / Stewarts at the moment is Bend of the River, because it seemed to me the most ordinary, with The Far Country next lowest. I don't know what your specific reservations about it were, domino, but for me it feels like the nastiness and cynicism of the film - while bracing - is the most schematic of any of the films in the cycle.

Before I put them on the long finger I'll be watching my three Fritz Lang Westerns; and possibly the various revisionist, and slightly revisionist, Westerns such as 'Culpepper' and 'Great Northfiield Minnesota Raid'.
I'm not sure I'll rewatch 'The Far Country' which I think is the weakest Mann-Stewart', or 'Westbound' , of Boetticher / Scott, for this exercise, but they certainly deserve a separate thread

[knives]

And don't forget you'll have to venture outside the set (and into the dreaded archive) to get the two missing pieces of the puzzle: Seven Men from Now and Westbound.

Seven Men from Now actually has a nicely done R1 edition. Everyone is screwed on Westbound though. By the way does anyone know where I can get the Sony set for under $30? The lowest I can find it $42.

[Yojimbo]

I also caught up with the Appaloosa, which overcomes the early obstacle of Marlon Brando's horrendous stage beard to be a decent enough western. John Saxon is amusing as the movie serial villain and there's some fun business with an arm wrestling match involving scorpions on strings, but the artsy cinematography sometimes feels at odds with the pulpy material despite its obvious beauty.

Caught up with the Appaloosa a few nights ago; I think I saw a review on IMDb, or linked to it, where the reviewer mentioned that director Furie had enjoyed such acclaim for 'The Ipcress File', that he regurgitated many of the tricks and camera angles that helped make that film a success.
Bad move in my book; it was a real endurance test to sit through; and for dramatic close-ups and ugly mugs, give me even low-grade spaghettis anyday; in fact its made me more determined than ever to check out the Sabata trilogy and Hill-Spencer films, if for no other reason than they deserve at least equal treatment to this misfire
Granted the arm-wrestle scene was fun, as was the face-off close-up that Brando had in a bar en route.
His accent was, predictably, lousy, though!

[domino harvey]

Sorry to say, the Culpepper Cattle Co. didn't do much for me. There's a weird half-assed effort at being revisionist but all the while the film follows a standard western track-- the film presents a pseudo-realistic (~~Cusses and going to the bathroom?! It's the Old West as you've NEVER seen it before~~) approach while remaining old fashioned in its plotting and narrative, and as a result it does neither extreme much justice. I really didn't care for the anti-religious bent at the end, either, which turns the film into a cheap joke. I'm kind of surprised that there is a cult following for this film, but then again, most cult films leave me mystified!

[Yojimbo]

Sorry to say, the Culpepper Cattle Co. didn't do much for me. There's a weird half-assed effort at being revisionist but all the while the film follows a standard western track-- the film presents a pseudo-realistic (~~Cusses and going to the bathroom?! It's the Old West as you've NEVER seen it before~~) approach while remaining old fashioned in its plotting and narrative, and as a result it does neither extreme much justice. I really didn't care for the anti-religious bent at the end, either, which turns the film into a cheap joke. I'm kind of surprised that there is a cult following for this film, but then again, most cult films leave me mystified!

I actually saw it on its original cinema release, - on a late-night screening, - and I don't think I've seen it since, so your assessment might be a sounder one than my dewy-eyed one.
But given that the director was Dick Richards, who did that wonderful remake of 'Farewell My Lovely', I have high hopes for it confirming my recollection of it when I give it another look

[cysiam]

I watched Colorado Territory for the first time and it's fantastic. A good portion of the film is interiors filmed with loads of lovely shadows, but when we venture outside the use of landscapes is perfect as usual for Walsh. Specifically the last act of the film where he has the rock formations completely dwarf the cast And wowzas, what an ending! It's a shame that this doesn't have a better release.

[domino harvey]

Whispering Smith (Leslie Fenton 1948) "Worthless" is a rough word to throw around, but it's hard to think of any other term more apt to describe this DOA Alan Ladd-led disaster. It's not good or bad, it's literally nothing at all. Time possibly went backwards while watching this. Symptomatic of the worst, most disposable excesses of the genre, and proof that unlike with noir, there's little joy to be found in a bad western.

Stranger on the Run (Don Siegel 1967) A better than average TV movie with a great cast-- Henry Fonda, Anne Baxter, Sal Mineo, Michael Parks, and Dan Duryea. It's the performance by the aged and hobbled Duryea that really makes this one worth watching, though. His graying gunslinger watches in dismay at the young hotheads he now finds standing beside him as enforcers of the law and tries to hide evidence of his spectacles so as to not reveal his waning vision. Though it was not quite his swan song (he'd die the next year), it's a neat little bow on one hell of a career. As for the non-Duryea parts, well, Parks is a hoot (Before I realized who he was, I was convinced he was doing some kind of bizarre Western Brando thing with his voice) and Anne Baxter still looks good, but yikes, she needed to dial down the histrionics a few decibels. I'd tell you the plot if it made even a little sense. It doesn't. No matter, really.

[Yojimbo]

Whispering Smith (Leslie Fenton 1948) "Worthless" is a rough word to throw around, but it's hard to think of any other term more apt to describe this DOA Alan Ladd-led disaster. It's not good or bad, it's literally nothing at all. Time possibly went backwards while watching this. Symptomatic of the worst, most disposable excesses of the genre, and proof that unlike with noir, there's little joy to be found in a bad western.

Stranger on the Run (Don Siegel 1967) A better than average TV movie with a great cast-- Henry Fonda, Anne Baxter, Sal Mineo, Michael Parks, and Dan Duryea. It's the performance by the aged and hobbled Duryea that really makes this one worth watching, though. His graying gunslinger watches in dismay at the young hotheads he now finds standing beside him as enforcers of the law and tries to hide evidence of his spectacles so as to not reveal his waning vision. Though it was not quite his swan song (he'd die the next year), it's a neat little bow on one hell of a career. As for the non-Duryea parts, well, Parks is a hoot (Before I realized who he was, I was convinced he was doing some kind of bizarre Western Brando thing with his voice) and Anne Baxter still looks good, but yikes, she needed to dial down the histrionics a few decibels. I'd tell you the plot if it made even a little sense. It doesn't. No matter, really.

That cast has almost the same 'trainwreck potential' as John Huston's 'The Misfits'
If memory serves me right Parks starred in a late 60's tv series called 'Bronson', which may have been tv's answer to 'Easy Rider', or, at least, the whole 'counter-culture' of the time.
I know I watched it a lot, although I can't say I was a fan, particularly, but I'll bet its horribly dated now.

The name Leslie Fenton rings no bells for me, but your review will surely sound the death knell for his film's prospects in our poll!
boom BOOM

[triodelover]

The name Leslie Fenton rings no bells for me...

Liverpudlian Leslie Fenton is probably best known for his role as Nails Nathan in The Public Enemy. Sad to say that as a director, most will first recognize the aforementioned Whispering Smith and the marginally better (because it rises to mediocrity) Streets of Laredo with William Holden.

[Cold Bishop]

Michael Parks is probably the greatest actor to make a career of nearly exclusively bad movies

[Yojimbo]

Michael Parks is probably greatest actor to make a career of nearly exclusively bad movies

Few if any of the titles rings a bell but at least the title of 'The Return of Josey Wales' does
(and parts in the 'Kill Bills' and 'Twin Peaks' did his cult credentials no harm at all)

[Yojimbo]

The name Leslie Fenton rings no bells for me...

Liverpudlian Leslie Fenton is probably best known for his role as Nails Nathan in The Public Enemy. Sad to say that as a director, most will first recognize the aforementioned Whispering Smith and the marginally better (because it rises to mediocrity) Streets of Laredo with William Holden.

Pity he never got to make the proposed sequel, "I Was Whispering Smith's Batman'

[domino harvey]

Across the Wide Missouri (William A Wellman 1951) I guess with the pedigree in front of and behind the camera, I expected more than the paycheck-cashing piffle the film provides. But at least this fur-trapping film (which contains no scenes of trapping) has the decency to be weird. Not weird enough to make watching this short piece of cinematic ephemera worthwhile, but at least I can now say I've seen Adolph Menjou's earring-sporting French translator drinking perfume and forcibly washing Clark Gable's hair, mustached and ponytailed John Hodiak dancing a Scottish jig in full western wear, and Ricardo Montalban throwing tomahawks at a baby.

Broken Lance (Edward Dmytryk 1954) A western remake of Mankiewicz's House of Strangers that one-ups the original in most arenas. Dmytryk's film has a reverent, somber tone, one aided by a limited score and wonderful use of long takes. This early 'Scope picture is one of the first Westerns to really understand the navigation of space within the newly extended frame, and there's some gorgeous vistas present. Also worth praising are the competing political ideologies of the film, with wonderful conservative tacks (such as the showstopping courtroom scene, which fully exposes the right's distrust with the law and courts) and surprisingly effective liberal moments as well. Jean Peters and Robert Wagner are both a little too pliantly bland as the taboo-skirting young lovers and of course that there doll don't care a lick for these here prejudices, but the film still handles the issue with a defter touch than most Westerns. Richard Widmark and Spencer Tracy unsurprisingly carry the film, with Widmark in particular giving an especially nuanced take on the recalcitrant older son archetype. There is more complexity in their interactions than the plot warranted, and the picture reaps the profits.

the Proud Ones (Robert D Webb 1956) A fine western, competently made, and of no great value beyond being a harmless way to pass an hour and a half. Robert Ryan is an aging sheriff who starts losing his vision after being injured early in the film. A more ambitious film would have made this the hinge on which the film swung upon, but it is reduced to a plot contrivance here. Virginia Mayo, a few years past her sell-by date, is a nonentity, and Walter Brennan and Arthur O'Connell putter around in the sidelines without anything to do. Everyone involved treats the film like the programmer that it is, and who could blame them? I liked the film despite its low ambitions, but "like" in a non-binding, disposable way, the same way I like a cookie when offered.


"Interesting" fact I picked up from watching these last two with the subtitles on: another word for cows mooing is "lowing"

[colinr0380]

"Interesting" fact I picked up from watching these last two with the subtitles on: another word for cows mooing is "lowing"

You didn't sing Away In A Manger over Christmas, domino? Jesus couldn't get to sleep for all of the lowing going on!

[domino harvey]

Looking at the lyrics, I don't remember anything past the first stanza of that Christmas tune. I will be sure to let you all know when a western film is subtitled with "(sounds of wassailing)" though!

[zedz]

Where are you getting your endless supply of blah westerns ("medioaters" in Varietyspeak), domino? Did you fall for one of those "100 Westerns for 10 bucks" PD sets?

If anybody's interested in doing a semi-synchronized run through the Boetticher / Scott westerns, as mentioned above, let me know by PM, including whether or not you've got the films on hand yet, and I'll suggest a rough timetable. If this is a goer, I suggest we discuss the films in the Boetticher filmmaker thread.

[domino harvey]

Some are part of boxed sets I've had around, half-watched for years. Most I just went on Amazon and Amazon.co.uk for and grabbed a bunch of Westerns that were on sale cheap so long as there was either a star or director attached that caught my interest. At least one total blind shot has paid off (Law and Order) and hopefully more follow. You think these viewings are oddball, just wait til I start tapping that unseen John Wayne vein in my unwatched pile-- there's probably twenty westerns in there, at least. Yumping yimminy!

[Yojimbo]

Some are part of boxed sets I've had around, half-watched for years. Most I just went on Amazon and Amazon.co.uk for and grabbed a bunch of Westerns that were on sale cheap so long as there was either a star or director attached that caught my interest. At least one total blind shot has paid off (Law and Order) and hopefully more follow. You think these viewings are oddball, just wait til I start tapping that unseen John Wayne vein in my unwatched pile-- there's probably twenty westerns in there, at least. Yumping yimminy!

I'd be wary of those unseen John Waynes, dom; ever since I was suckered into watching 'The Star Packer', I've known better than to assume that the three words 'John Wayne Western' automatically meant quality, or even watchable

[cysiam]

Two Henry King / Gregory Peck westerns:

The Gunfigher tears down the myth of the Gunslinger. Gregory Peck is Jimmy Ringo who's reputation as the fastest gun has become more and more of a burden as he gets older. Everyone wants to fight him or gawk at him while he just wants to be left alone. Peck's performance is rock solid. He manages really convey an exhaustion and desire to change but there still seems to bit of the old Ringo (cocky and quick tempered) that comes out, as if he can't quite shake off the man he was/is. An incredible film.
The Bravados once again finds Peck weary and tormented. This time it's from his relentless pursuit of the men he believes raped and killed his wife. Where The Gunfighter was black & white and mostly in a saloon, this one opens things up with a color scope chase film. Despite this they both have the same fatalistic theme and I found The Bravados to be surprisingly dark. Peck's torment rarely ever leaves his face as he seeks a revenge that even he seems to know is pointless. The grey areas and ambiguity really made it much more interesting than it otherwise would have been. The villains aren't one-dimensional and only one of them comes off as being truly evil. Stephen Boyd does a great job portraying the psychopath Zachary. The scene where he fondles the rope of his female kidnap victim made my skin crawl.

This is my first experience with Henry King and have to say I'm quite impressed.

[Cold Bishop]

The Gunfighter always came off a little too self-important to me. I think Peck's last speech is especially symptomatic of this. I much prefer The Bravados. Still need to catch up with The Shootist, which was Wayne making-up for losing out on the role.

[matrixschmatrix]

Two Henry King / Gregory Peck westerns:

The Gunfigher tears down the myth of the Gunslinger. Gregory Peck is Jimmy Ringo who's reputation as the fastest gun has become more and more of a burden as he gets older. Everyone wants to fight him or gawk at him while he just wants to be left alone. Peck's performance is rock solid. He manages really convey an exhaustion and desire to change but there still seems to bit of the old Ringo (cocky and quick tempered) that comes out, as if he can't quite shake off the man he was/is. An incredible film.

Have you ever heard the Dylan song Brownsville Girl? It's one of the more meandering Dylan weirdo epics, but the first couple of verses are about an unnamed Gregory Peck Western which is pretty clearly this one.

I'd actually seen the Gunfighter before I heard the song, and didn't take much note of it, but it locked together with the song in my head so strongly that I wound up being kind of in love with both- Dylan gives the movie a sort of mythological grandeur in reminiscence, which retroactively justifies the self-importance.

(I'm sorry if this is an irrelevant tangent, but I always find it fascinating when something totally outside a movie makes the movie work better for me, and it seemed worth sharing.)

[cysiam]

I have not. I tend to like my Dylan on the younger side, but I'll check it out!

[domino harvey]

The Train Robbers (Burt Kennedy 1973) Well, the Wild Bunch it ain't, but this bit of aging Hollywooders round-up benefits from low expectations. John Wayne, Ben Johnson (post-Oscar? C'mon dude), and Rod Taylor muse on aging as they recover a shipment of gold stolen by Ann-Margaret's late husband-- to turn in for the reward! Because John Wayne can't be a criminal, even though the only defense to offer for not just taking $500,000 versus $50,000 seems to be that they don't because John Wayne can't be a criminal. Ricardo Montalban puts in a nice non-indian appearance and the ending has a funny little twist to it. This is another Cookie Western, but I look back on it with a smile.

Tall in the Saddle (Edwin L Marin 1944) The first twenty minutes or so of this film is pretty ominous, as it consists solely of Gabby Hayes and John Wayne trading misogynistic barbs and terrorizing stuck up eastern women. Surprisingly, things take an intriguing turn once the film actually starts (this would have been a tight little hour-long b-film with the first reel lopped off) and Wayne's typical stoicism is abused to a foolish degree-- one memorable moment finds him facing off in a duel simply by telling the other guy as soon as he moves his hand, "Touch that gun and I'll kill you." No starlet intimidates quite like Ella Raines, so she's well-used here as a cowgirl not afraid to go Phantom Lady on some gunhands. Gabby Hayes is Gabby Hayes Awful. Decent film if you can overlook its structure problems and the fact that it turns into an Agatha Christie novel near the end. To be honest, this film peaks with the image of Ward Bond kicking John Wayne in the face.