The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Yojimbo]

For more recent westerns, I'm considering revisiting Wild Bill, which got somewhat lost in the early 90s crush of revisionist westerns of the likes of Tombstone, Geronimo and Wyatt Earp. The Ballad of Little Jo too. And considering its number one placing in the 1990s list, I think this is an extra push towards finally getting around to watching Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man.

'Dead Man' is a Masterpiece; I don't care for any of those others you mention.
I was especially disappointed with 'The Ballad of Little Jo', especially after 'The Kill-Off'

[Finch]

I'd put in a word for William Wellman's The Ox-Bow Incident: as great as some of the usual candidates (Red River etc) are, this particular film resonates more with me still: it utterly condemns the mob mentality at the core of its conflict and its portrayal of the loss of moral authority and lack of human compassion (save for Fonda's character) is absolutely devastating. When Fonda shames the other men in the final sequence, I can't help thinking of this quote from George Eliot: "A man's past is not simply a dead history.. it is a still living, quivering part of himself, bringing shudder and bitter flavours, and the tinglings of a merited shame". I'd be hard pressed to think of a more emotionally impacting western than this. Definitely in my Top Five.

[Finch]

Meant to ask: I suppose John Sturges' Bad Day At Black Rock doesn't count for the purpose of this thread?

[domino harvey]

Why not?

[Finch]

Well, initially I thought its post-WWII setting would exclude it but if the likes of Lonely are the Brave are eligible, then the Sturges might sneak onto my list.

[Wu.Qinghua]

Well, maybe you could have a look at two communist 'westerns' set in the east, which I like very much:

Vladymir Motyl's "White Sun of the Desert" (1969) is set in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.
And then, there's a this beautiful Chinese 'army western' "Visitors on Icy Mountain" (1963), which offers some kind of Red Army eulogy, set in the mountains on the north-eastern border of the People's Republic. Here's anexcerpt.

And as I don't know whether it will be possible for you to check some westerns from the former GDR - I don't know if there are subtitles available -, will something like that Korean movie "The good, the bad and the weird" be of interest, too?

Oh, check out King Stitt's take on "Lee van Cleef". I love those old spaghetti western reggae tunes ...

PS: I am sorry if I should have missed you shutting out 'westerns' set in other regions ...

[knives]

And as I don't know whether it will be possible for you to check some westerns from the former GDR

First Run has released several of these in the US. I'm not what percentage it represents, but there are three available in a boxset.

[tojoed]

Any love for Little Big Man? It's one of my favourites, though it's not as good as the novel. At least it's decidedly not a musical.

[Murdoch]

At least it's decidedly not a musical.

I'm sure we could find a way around that.

[Yojimbo]

Any love for Little Big Man? It's one of my favourites, though it's not as good as the novel. At least it's decidedly not a musical.

not love, exactly; I think I prefer Penn's 'Missouri Breaks'

[knives]

That movie turned me off of Penn for a short while actually. It generally comes across as lazy and somewhat stupid. The humour seems to be aiming for a classical in modern sort of corny, but just comes off as a mixture of condescension and unease. Though I should probably give it an other look in case I'm just being grumpy.

[domino harvey]

I have updated the first post with links and resources. If I've missed any, and I have, please let me know here or via PM

[Yojimbo]

That movie turned me off of Penn for a short while actually. It generally comes across as lazy and somewhat stupid. The humour seems to be aiming for a classical in modern sort of corny, but just comes off as a mixture of condescension and unease. Though I should probably give it an other look in case I'm just being grumpy.

Is that 'Missouri Breaks'?
Its not wholly successful, but Brando's is an unforgettable performance, in more ways than one.

[knives]

No, I was talking about Little Big Man which for me is his worst film.

[tojoed]

Now you've upset me, I thought you meant "Missouri Breaks". Oh well.

[Yojimbo]

Now you've upset me, I thought you meant "Missouri Breaks". Oh well.

I win!

[YnEoS]

Still debating on if I'm gonna vote in this or not. I could easily come up with 50 westerns, but I'm still lacking quite a few essentials. Maybe this topic will convince me to finally get around to them.

If anyone is looking for some bizarre western parodies that are a bit off the beaten path. Tears of the Black Tiger is clearly set in Thailand, but definitely aims to look like and poke fun at the western genre. Lemonade Joe from Czechoslovakia is a really bizarre parody of the west and capitalism. Also on the Puppet Films of Jiri Trnka DVD is Song of the Prarie a short stop-motion animation parody of Stagecoach.

And can anyone recommend any non-Ford silent westerns of noted interest?

Definitely check out The Toll Gate and Tumbleweeds starring William S Hart.

[zedz]

If anyone is looking for some bizarre western parodies that are a bit off the beaten path. Tears of the Black Tiger is clearly set in Thailand, but definitely aims to look like and poke fun at the western genre. Lemonade Joe from Czechoslovakia is a really bizarre parody of the west and capitalism. Also on the Puppet Films of Jiri Trnka DVD is Song of the Prarie a short stop-motion animation parody of Stagecoach.

In a similar vein: Luc Moullet's A Girl Is a Gun and the Warhol / Morrissey Lonesome Cowboys. Not that either of those are going to be troubling my list (though the similarly ballparked and aforementioned Whity will be).

And can anyone recommend any non-Ford silent westerns of noted interest?

I'm actually interested in any pre-Stagecoach recommendations. Walsh's The Big Trail will be high on my list, and it's one of the most visually stunning westerns ever made, but other than that (and the obvious available Fords) I'm in the dark. The available titles from the teens were well surveyed during that leg of the lists project, but the thirties in particular are an unexplored frontier for me. Great films only please! I've already got too many masterpieces for my final list.

Case in point: Watched Walsh's Colorado Territory yesterday and it was as terrific as I anticipated, but I don't know if it will make my list, simply because there's already a risk that I could fill every slot with Mann / Boetticher / Ford / Walsh films if I'm not careful.

[Yojimbo]

Case in point: Watched Walsh's Colorado Territory yesterday and it was as terrific as I anticipated, but I don't know if it will make my list, simply because there's already a risk that I could fill every slot with Mann / Boetticher / Ford / Walsh films if I'm not careful.

If you think thats the case then you need to check out Monte Hellman's two 60's Westerns with Jack Nicholson, which are shoo-ins for me; Hawks' 'Red River' and 'Rio Bravo'; every Leone Western; four or five Peckinpahs; a bunch of lesser-known spaghettis; 'Dead Man', 'Monte Walsh', 'The Shootist', 'McCabe and Mrs Miller', a bunch of Jesse James', Johnny Guitar, a Lang or two; a Curtiz or two, a Wellman or two, a Henry King or two, which will certainly make my list

[zedz]

Well obviously half of those will be on my list (though not Red River - can't get past the silly ending - or the vastly overrated Dead Man, and I tried to watch Monte Walsh last week with a friend but neither of us could stand its lame humour and visual ugliness - are there any comic westerns that actually work?) but I do sometimes wonder if The Wild Bunch or For a Few Dollars More or Rancho Notorious really is a better film than Fort Apache, or The Far Country, or Comanche Station, or Colorado Territory, or some other film by the aforementioned masters that I'm not going to be able to accommodate.

[Murdoch]

Red River will make my list if only for Joanne Dru.

For Jesse James films I really like Nick Ray's, well what I remember of it. I saw it soon after seeing The Assassination of Jesse James... and remember greatly preferring Ray's depiction of James' killing over the new film, whose attempt at profundity during the pivotal scene felt like a sledgehammer over the head.

[zedz]

The Assassination of Jesse James was pretty good (though that's not good enough ), but I saw it just after Fuller's film, and the whole final section suffered in comparison: Fuller got so much more out of so much less.

[domino harvey]

I think Lang's Jesse James film is my favorite (and the Nic Ray take is my least-favorite Ray movie by a longshot), though the director had a pretty dubious take on the flick he was contracted to sequelize (which wasn't a bad film at all, actually)

Case in point: Watched Walsh's Colorado Territory yesterday and it was as terrific as I anticipated, but I don't know if it will make my list, simply because there's already a risk that I could fill every slot with Mann / Boetticher / Ford / Walsh films if I'm not careful.

I can't tell if you're joking, but what would be so bad about that if they warranted placement there?

I picked up a ton of Westerns from storage this holiday and I'm gearing up for semi-permanent residency in this thread (though I also liberated by PD noir sets, so I'm sure I'll be visiting the ol' winter cabin of that genre thread too)

[zedz]

Case in point: Watched Walsh's Colorado Territory yesterday and it was as terrific as I anticipated, but I don't know if it will make my list, simply because there's already a risk that I could fill every slot with Mann / Boetticher / Ford / Walsh films if I'm not careful.

I can't tell if you're joking, but what would be so bad about that if they warranted placement there?

Well, as usual for me (only the Early Cinema and noir lists were exceptions in this regard), I'm going to have way more than fifty films that feel like they have to be included, and the difference between, say, my number 26 film and my number 56 film is likely to be imaginary or illusory, and maybe those positions would flip if I watched one of them one more time. So once you get out of the top tier and second tier, I usually have a morass of fifty or more films that are all much of a muchness, and generally I end up trying to be even-handed, diverse and representative rather than struggle to fine-tune niceties of preference which are fleeting or irrelevant.

So it's at this point that I'll tend to favour a second Peckinpah (or a first King) over a seventh Mann or fifth Ford. The problem is, all of those excluded third-tier films continue to "warrant placement".

[domino harvey]

Ah, I see. I had the same problem with Preminger, Siodmak, and Lang on the last genre list-- sometimes the "Auteur's already well-covered" argument won out (bye bye, Scarlet Street) and sometimes it didn't (Hey there, Where the Sidewalk Ends)

And can you believe I actually think Red River's ending is just as brilliant as what came before it? I need to defend that shit, I know!