The Lists Project

[domino harvey]

Neverthless I'll be voting for it, unless mini-series are ruled ineligible for this arm of the Lists Project. I'm pretty sure I voted for Pennies from Heaven in the 70s list (unless Casanova took my Potter preference that go-round).

I'm allowing it (and haven't seen it, so no favoritism is involved)

[Yojimbo]

Don't hesitate, Yojimbo - the mini-series is grim viewing but utterly addictive, crammed full of world-class acting, great songs, witty low-budget dance numbers, and dialogue so bleak it will turn your hair grey. There's a scene in the second or third episode where Freddie Jones, as the tyrannical headmaster, explains to a young teacher why he is so cruel to the children: it's so as not to give them any false hopes about the world in which they're about to suffer out their lives. It's really just a very long, very great film about the ways in which we lie to ourselves in a vain effort to make life seem bearable, and it's telling that the headmaster doesn't get a song (if I remember rightly; it's been a while). The songs express the deepest, most idealised yearnings of the characters, but are in stark contrast with the sordid tragedies that punctuate their lives. Time and again Potter situates the songs in a context that insistently draws out their bleakness.

The effect of having the actors mime along to original recordings, rather than actually sing (as I think they do in the film?), is to add an extra layer of aching poignancy to the proceedings, because we're always hearing these delicate, quivering voices from the distant past, and theyr're the voices of the characters' souls: buried deep inside them and inaudible to the other characters, a fascinating comment on the artificiality of musicals. But it also retroactively makes those old songs and musicals seem like 'pennies from heaven' in the most degraded, despairing sense - scraps of love, beauty and happiness thrown to us by an ultimately malignant fate, just to keep us clinging on a bit longer, papering over the horror of life with a veneer of melodious gaiety. It's both a very earnest celebration of the genre (the songs are all great) and a scathing critique of it. I guess a lot of this must be true of the film as well, but the great joy of the series is getting to know the characters over a long space of time - you really invest in their fates. And of course, there must be fewer songs in the film, which can't be good. And no Bob Hoskins; also not good.

EDIT: Cold Bishop, that cheap made-for-TV look of the original is one of the things I love most about it, perhaps because I'm fond of that era of British television in comparison to the glossy pseudo-filmic look everything has now. It's not just that, though - the rough and ready quality of the dance numbers is absolutely central to the series' purpose. (Glee might actually be a series worth taking seriously if it de-glossed itself a little, though I guess its ratings would plummet...)

Anyway, the last couple of comments do make me want to see the film more; I look forward to the (eventual) real discussion.

I did see it on its original tv broadcast but haven't seen it since; I don't know was it ever repeated.
I was disappointed with Potter's much-praised 'The Singing Detective' so have perhaps been wary of being disappointed with a re-viewing of 'Pennies'.
But I'll definitely dig out that DVD set soon.

[Fiery Angel]

PURPLE RAIN!

Great music, hilariously bad movie....Prince and Apollonia give 2 of the worst performances ever committed to celluloid. And don't get me started on Morris Day's annoying ham.

[Yojimbo]

PURPLE RAIN!

Great music, hilariously bad movie....Prince and Apollonia give 2 of the worst performances ever committed to celluloid. And don't get me started on Morris Day's annoying ham.

not forgetting 'Under the Cherry Moon'

btw, I've just been reminded of the two great Jacques Demy musicals, especially my favourite 'Les Demoiselles de Rochefort', whose soundtrack cd I regularly set on repeat-play.
Actually this musicals project could prove to be quite a rewarding adventure.

[Fiery Angel]

PURPLE RAIN!

Great music, hilariously bad movie....Prince and Apollonia give 2 of the worst performances ever committed to celluloid. And don't get me started on Morris Day's annoying ham.

not forgetting 'Under the Cherry Moon'

Oh, I've forgotten it, don't worry.

[Yojimbo]

not forgetting 'Under the Cherry Moon'

Oh, I've forgotten it, don't worry.

Sorry

[Cold Bishop]

[-X It sounds like some people need to purify themselves in the waters of Lake Minnetonka.

[Yojimbo]

[-X It sounds like some people need to purify themselves in the waters of Lake Minnetonka.

"Forgive me, fadda, for I have sinned!" [-o<

[zedz]

Oh, here we go with that discussion again, but for my part, I wouldn't classify Under the Cherry Moon as a musical (whereas Purple Rain is), even though it's got a sensational song score, wall-to-wall music, and is one of the few films of recent vintage to be directly descended from the Astaire - Rogers musicals. The problem is, only one song ('Girls and Boys') is performed by a character in the film (not counting the music video of 'Mountains' that plays out over the credits), and one song doth not a musical make (even when it's Barbara Stanwyck and Gene Krupa belting out 'Drum Boogie').

(Come to think of it, the musical might be the only genre for which I'll be able to come up with a cast-iron prescriptive definition.)

[Cold Bishop]

But what do you think of Graffiti Bridge???

[Yojimbo]

and one song doth not a musical make (even when it's Barbara Stanwyck and Gene Krupa belting out 'Drum Boogie').

So 'Phantom Lady' doesn't count, then?

But what do you think of Graffiti Bridge???

Haven't seen it, CB, but I have seen '200 Motels'
And on a big screen, too!

[Lemmy Caution]

Not being that familiar with musicals, I wonder what people here think of recent musicals such as John Turturro's Romance & Cigarettes (2005)?

[tojoed]

Is "Nashville" a musical? I suppose partly it is, so it should count.

[zedz]

But what do you think of Graffiti Bridge???

I did watch it once and it seemed like a really bad TV special for kids that no kid would ever want to watch. And I say this as an Under the Cherry Moon apologist.[/shame]

As for Nashville, I don't see how you could rationally exclude it from the category of musical, since it's a narrative feature film in which a number of major characters perform songs on screen, which is surely the fundamental definition of the genre.

[Yojimbo]

But what do you think of Graffiti Bridge???

I did watch it once and it seemed like a really bad TV special for kids that no kid would ever want to watch. And I say this as an Under the Cherry Moon apologist.[/shame]

As for Nashville, I don't see how you could rationally exclude it from the category of musical, since it's a narrative feature film in which a number of major characters perform songs on screen, which is surely the fundamental definition of the genre.

:-k
So 'Coalminers Daughter', 'Tender Mercies', 'Ray', 'Great Balls of Fire', 'The Jolson Story', and 'Forty Shades of Blue' also fit the bill?

[zedz]

Why not, for most of those? Unless you're going to exclude certain genres of music from 'musicals' privileges, which creates all sorts of problems (especially when you consider the number of 40s and 50s MGM musicals that were determined to push light classical on their audiences).

BUT: Although there's plenty of music in 40 Shades of Blue, none of it is performed by major or significant secondary characters, as I recall, so I wouldn't classify that as a musical. True Stories, on the other hand, would definitely be a musical by the zedz rule.

EDIT: Further to the first few films in your list of queries: plenty of 'classic' musicals double as biopics - Yankee Doodle Dandy, Words and Music - it's just that the musical biopic has continued to be reasonably popular up to the present day while the musical comedy itself has become a rare bird, so nowadays they might seem more distinct than they actually are.

[Yojimbo]

BUT: Although there's plenty of music in 40 Shades of Blue, none of it is performed by major or significant secondary characters, as I recall, so I wouldn't classify that as a musical. True Stories, on the other hand, would definitely be a musical by the zedz rule.

Yeah, I suppose thats critical; but does Elisha Cook Jnr's solo in 'Phantom Lady' ensure it qualifies?

[zedz]

Yeah, I suppose thats critical; but does Elisha Cook Jnr's solo in 'Phantom Lady' ensure it qualifies?

Haven't seen Phantom Lady, but if there's only one musical number, however great, how would it differ from other non-musicals like Ball of Fire? Doesn't one of the Indiana Jones films open with a big production number?

I'm looking forward to testing it out, but I'm pretty sure that Night of the Hunter would qualify as a musical (albeit a weird one) under my criteria, as a number of major characters sing and there are song set-pieces (the spiritual accompanying the journey down-river). Hell, the climax of the film is a singing duel between hero and villain!

[Yojimbo]

I'm looking forward to testing it out, but I'm pretty sure that Night of the Hunter would qualify as a musical (albeit a weird one) under my criteria, as a number of major characters sing and there are song set-pieces (the spiritual accompanying the journey down-river). Hell, the climax of the film is a singing duel between hero and villain!

Well, if Night of the Hunter qualifies, then every John Ford Western does; 'Shall We Gather At The River', anyone?

[domino harvey]

Jesus Christ you guys, is this how every list is going to go down, with people fudging rules to vote for films that aren't in the running by any remotely normal definition? Can't wait for all the adaptations of Great Expectations in the Sci-Fi list!! And Singin' in the Rain is totes a war film!! And what film could be a finer romantic comedy than the Thin Red Line?!

[mfunk9786]

It's the same shit people try to pull every year in the Criterion Forum Awards thread.

[Murdoch]

Looking forward to putting Inside Daisy Clover on my western list \:D/

[swo17]

I thought that was supposed to be a porno.

[Yojimbo]

'Bride of Frankenstein', with her Yoko Ono-esque screech must be a lock for 'Musicals'

[Steven H]

What? People questioning the definitions of genre? On a film forum? It's like some bizarro universe where everything's gone topsy-turvy!