The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Murdoch]

For post-60s westerns the only one that will probably end up on my list is Badlands, which is a sort of tough sell as a western. . .

I'll say! Are you also going to be including Bonnie and Clyde, Gun Crazy, They Live By Night, Boxcar Bertha and Public Enemies, because I see those as its close cousins, genre-wise.

For me the western isn't about when, but where, the American midwest as a centerpiece for manifest destiny and lawlessness. I'm interested in the western as a measure of the changing American landscape and I think Badlands is an interesting companion piece to the classic period since the film is shot in a way that emphasizes its setting and it feels to me like an outlaw on the run in modern society. The film captures that feeling of lawlessness that westerns carry, any type of law enforcement has little bearing on the film until the end, and when Kit's caught he's treated like an icon, the last vestige of a dead era. After the 60s the western feels like a novelty piece, and while I can't say I won't stumble upon any others from after the classic era that I think list-worthy, none that I've seen have piqued my interest as much.

Haven't seen Bertha, but those others - with maybe the exception of Bonnie and Clyde - is focused on either urban landscapes or give little attention to setting, whereas Badlands could hardly take place anywhere else.

[zedz]

Do you, or anybody else, know if the American disc is a safe bet AR wise at least for The Hired Hand?

I've got the two-disc version of the Sundance release, and it's excellent. I assume the single-disc version is exactly the same transfer. I'd recommend the deluxe version, though, because there's not a lot of information floating around about the film and the context the extras provide is valuable.

[domino harvey]

Last good Western I saw was probably Day of the Outlaw (1959) a pretty gritty snowbound sexualized Western from Andre de Toth. Well wroth seeing.

This did absolutely nothing for me, but I'd love to read an argument in favor of it

As for Heaven's Gate, I was thinking about it earlier today and it, more than any modern Western, really captured how unappealing the actual "West" would have been. Cimino paints the chaos and dirt and sheer hell of the town square in a way that demolishes the glamorous romanticization of Hollywood. But of course, I still prefer Hollywood westerns to Heaven's Gate, so

[Steven H]

Anyone for Alex Cox's Walker as a western? If anyone seconds that motion, it's basically set as my number 1. Otherwise, Django, Django, Django.

[Yojimbo]

Although Kurosawa's great period films might technically be deemed Easterns, they were both inspired by, and inspired great Hollywood, and spaghetti, Westerns, so I take it my namesake, to name but one, passes the taste test!

[domino harvey]

Jesus Christ, I'd hate to be on a birthday cake buying trip with you people.

"Well, I know he likes yellow cake with chocolate frosting, but little mini donuts are practically the same thing, and when you think about it, those are so chocolatey that they're practically candy bars and so when you look at objectively, isn't Laffy Taffy better for you than chocolate anyway and they're both still serving the same function of being sweet and everyone likes the wrappers the best anyways so here's what we got to feed everyone at the party:"



Westerns pass the Potter Stewart test, don't they? Why sweat it so much on such an easily ID-ed genre?

[Yojimbo]

So you're saying "all bets are off"; even 'Treasure of the Sierra Madre' qualifies as a Western? :-k

[domino harvey]

Why is that an example of a film that isn't? It'll be on my list

[Steven H]

Westerns pass the Potter Stewart test, don't they? Why sweat it so much on such an easily ID-ed genre?

So can I count you in as a vote for Westworld?

[domino harvey]

You can count me down as a vote for the "Jo Jo's Jacket" video if it'll get us actually talking about films and not whether something qualifies or not. See first post in this very thread: If you think it's a western, vote for it. If someone else votes for it, validation (or you're a misunderstood snowflake, etc)

[Tribe]

Westerns pass the Potter Stewart test, don't they? Why sweat it so much on such an easily ID-ed genre?

I agree. We're not talking a style or series like film noir. A western is a pretty well-defined genre...no doubt many non-westerns have been inspired by the genre, but that doesn't make them westerns.

For one thing, I think a movie has to be situated in the American West, which arguably is gonna include Mexico inasmuch as the American West was taken from Mexico in the first place and is going to be West of the Mississippi. Regardless, Mexico has always been a part of the American West for myth-making purposes. At the very least, even if the name of the setting is specifically undefined in any given movie, the setting has to at least look like the American West with the stereotypical accoutrements, e.g., natives, guns, horses, cowboy gear, hats, etc.

For another, I don't think a movie set in the 20th century is going to make a movie a Western either. The presence of automobiles, airplanes, radios, modern cattle-ranching, etc. indicates a contemporary setting and in my view excludes a movie from the genre.

However, a western can be set in some fantasy setting where instances of the contemporary (or non-Western age) without bypassing the genre. El Topo, for instance, comes to mind or even perhaps Zachariah, or hell, The Valley of Gwangi. The point is that in these fantasy set Westerns, the mythic American West is still identifiable and the intrusions of contemporaneity are part of the fantasy where normal rules of times, space, gravity, etc, don't apply.

[Yojimbo]

Why is that an example of a film that isn't? It'll be on my list

I see that film as a timeless, stateless, 'moral tale': its got the hats, and the boots, and the bat-ches, but its still 'mutton dressed as lamb'

[Cold Bishop]

This did absolutely nothing for me, but I'd love to read an argument in favor of it

That would make sense, since I considered naming it as my swapsie.

[Titus]

Count me as another fan of Day of the Outlaw. Love the desolate, wintry setting and the lonely depiction of frontier life. Everything about the movie feels deglamourized vs. the kinds of Westerns one typically associates with classic Hollywood. No large scale actions scenes or bombastic music or anything, just a quiet and kind of melancholy portrait of a small, isolated community of the time. The "death of the west" theme makes an appearance, but not in any grandiose way; it features mainly just to emphasize the alienation and loneliness of Robert Ryan's character (I love his angry monologue near the beginning: "We hunted them down in the freezing cold while you sat back in the East hugging your pot-bellied stove. Nobody thanked us. Nobody paid us. We did it because we felt we belonged. We earned the right to belong. And all you've done is ride in here and put down your stinking boots. And now you tell us that you belong and we don't.")

Plus it's got Robert Ryan giving a characteristically great performance (was there a better actor from that era in Hollywood?). The relationship between he and Burl Ives is interesting. The mutual respect and sense of understanding between them -- it reminds me a bit of Richard Boone in The Tall T, who seems almost disgusted by his gang members but admires Scott, his hostage. Anyway, it's not The Searchers-type-good or anything, but a very fine Western nonetheless. I hope Cold Bishop gives us a write-up on it at some point.

[Cold Bishop]

Just like his one-two film noir punch, this and Ramrod will be ranking very highly for me. And now's the chance to catch up with the De Toth-Scott westerns.

I also imagine, however, that this is going to be a more difficult list for not-on-dvd entries, given the preponderance of CinemaScope. So many bootlegs are pretty much only pan-and-scan vs. widescreen film noirs, which came late in the cycle and which were usually just matted.

And can anyone recommend any non-Ford silent westerns of noted interest?

[knives]

While it still is technically a Ford my favorite silent western is The Invaders which may be the most morally interesting western from the first fifty or so years of film. It takes a rather typical story and turns it on it's head in ways I haven't seen done well since. From the same period I think Hell's Hinges is pretty odd and good. Everything else I've seen is parodies like Keaton's Go West.

[domino harvey]

And can anyone recommend any non-Ford silent westerns of noted interest?

They all sort of blend together in my memory right now, but certainly anything starring Tom Mix is worth a look

[Cold Bishop]

What about even Westerns of the 1930s? I always found it curious that the classic western period is considered, by most of fans of the genre, the 40s and 50s wave inaugurated by Stagecoach. Yet, reading Bazin, he calls it, and its fellow '39-'40 alumni, the end of classicism in the genre. So what were these films? What, of the endless b-movies and serials, is actually worth watching?

[Sloper]

And can anyone recommend any non-Ford silent westerns of noted interest?

You might want to try The Vanishing American (available from Image, I think) and Redskin (on the Treasures From American Archives 3 set), both starring Richard Dix as a downtrodden Native American. (Neither is eligible if you exclude films set in the 20th century, but then The Wild Bunch is out as well, no? I couldn't stick to that rule, I'm afraid...) Neither is quite memorable enough to make my 1920s list, largely because of the tediously predictable plots and the extremely staid Dix, but they're beautifully shot: The Vanishing American has a lovely eye for Monument Valley, especially in the closing sequence, and Redskin is mostly shot in gorgeous two-strip technicolor, with some very striking compositions (especially in the close-ups). And of course if you're interested in Hollywood's treatment of Native Americans, they're absolutely fascinating.

Henry King's The Winning of Barbara Worth displays the director's usual proficiency (The Gunfighter would certainly top my list), and has a spectacular flood sequence at the end, but again I find it rather forgettable. Does Tol'able David count? I can't quite be bothered to check whether it conforms to the genre criteria, but it's a wonderful film. Same question for Sjostrom's The Wind, one of the all-time great films about sand.

I'd definitely second knives' recommendation of The Invaders and, especially, Hell's Hinges, which is right in the top tier of westerns as far as I'm concerned. A few of Griffith's Biograph shorts should also count, especially The Massacre, which is a must-see. And of course you might want to check out Keaton, Lloyd and Chaplin (Go West and Billy Blazes, esq, spring to mind, though I don't like them very much).

EDIT: Greed?

[willoneill]

Maybe a silly question. Where should I send my list? I couldn't find an obvious answer anywhere.

[Yojimbo]

(Neither is eligible if you exclude films set in the 20th century, but then The Wild Bunch is out as well, no? I couldn't stick to that rule, I'm afraid...) ............And of course you might want to check out Keaton, Lloyd and Chaplin (Go West and Billy Blazes, esq, spring to mind, though I don't like them very much).

EDIT: Greed?

Well, I'll certainly be including 'Lonely Are The Brave' and 'Hud' in my 50, and possibly any number of contemporary rodeo-centred films, to name but a few 20th Century era 'Westerns'

Not sure about 'Greed', though
Yes, it has a memorable Death Valley scene,.......but,.....

[reno dakota]

Maybe a silly question. Where should I send my list? I couldn't find an obvious answer anywhere.

PM your list to domino by May 30.

[GringoTex]

My Spotlight Swapsie is Tourneur's "Stranger on Horseback". It's his leanest, meanest film and contains the Wild West's most horrifying family unit. Miroslava's suicide two weeks after shooting wrapped lends a non-diegetic foreboding to the whole enterprise.

My provisional Top 5:

Wagon Master
Vera Cruz
The Tall T
Canyon Passage
My Darling Clementine

[Yojimbo]

My Spotlight Swapsie is Tourneur's "Stranger on Horseback". It's his leanest, meanest film and contains the Wild West's most horrifying family unit. Miroslava's suicide two weeks after shooting wrapped lends a non-diegetic foreboding to the whole enterprise.

My provisional Top 5:

Wagon Master
Vera Cruz
The Tall T
Canyon Passage
My Darling Clementine

Well, with a name like Gringo Tex I suppose you must know your Westerns, but I think I might prefer 'Ride Lonesome' of the Boetticher-Scotts, even with Richard Boone starring in 'T'.
I've heard so much about this "Stranger on Horseback"that I must try and catch it, although I wasn't overwhelmed by the Tourneur Westerns I have seen.

[colinr0380]

In a strange coincidence I've just received the Blu Ray version of How The West Was Won. I've not seen the film before (but thought the purchase was an essential one to test the capabilities of my player with the 'smile box' version of the film!), so this poll will help to nudge it towards the top of my 'to see' list sooner rather than later.

For more recent westerns, I'm considering revisiting Wild Bill, which got somewhat lost in the early 90s crush of revisionist westerns of the likes of Tombstone, Geronimo and Wyatt Earp. The Ballad of Little Jo too. And considering its number one placing in the 1990s list, I think this is an extra push towards finally getting around to watching Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man.

However what about the genre of comedy westerns beyond Blazing Saddles? Cat Ballou, Son of Paleface and Support Your Local Sheriff!/Gunfighter! (Gunfighter being yet another version of Yojimbo). Even (shudder) all those Italian Trinity westerns with Terence Hill? Destry Rides Again would be my recommendation from this subgenre, which handily intersects with the other Marlene Deitrich as saloon madame film Rancho Notorious, which then itself flows towards the ne plus ultra of saloon madame films, Johnny Guitar!