The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Yojimbo]

'Pursued' is a Western, for me
Period.
Its not even up for consideration.

[Murdoch]

Had a Lang double bill with Scarlet Street and Woman in the Window, and given the trio of actors in both (Robinson, Bennett, and Duryea) it's easy to see the two as companion pieces. The naive and humble Robinson of SS is ripe for noir deconstruction, and his descent into criminality in the final act quickly launches his character beyond the perpetrator of a crime of passion and into the realm of a sociopath. The unwelcome reunion of his wife and former husband and testimony during the murder trial make Robinson out to be far more calculating than thought, and that cleverly staged ice pick murder (somehow the blanket Bennett uses as cover just makes it more brutal) completely destroys the nice guy persona and turns our sympathetic lowly hero into a figure worse than the wicked pair of Bennett and Duryea. The film wonderfully plays with audience sympathy as the hero becomes the villain and poor Duryea gets sent to the chair while impish Robinson sits idly by, haunted by voices of his misdeeds.

I sort of see SS as a prequel to Woman, not only because of the actor trio but also because of the subject matter. The "self-portrait" of Bennett in the final shot of SS as the bitter reminder of Robinson's crime, then the portrait of Bennett in Woman becoming this gateway into another criminal world. The Robinson of Woman is so knowledgeable about murder that when he commits one he acts as cool and collected as if he were conducting one of his classes, telling Bennett - once again the femme fatale who lures Robinson into crime - a step-by-step method for cover-up. Duryea appears to be the constant between the two films as the corrupting force, if it just weren't for him Robinson could go on his merry way. Bennett in Woman feels much less developed than she was in SS, her motives are never clear and the only time during the film we spend with her are in scenes whose consequences have a direct effect on Robinson - the murder, the meeting with Duryea - which I suppose works given that the film is largely a dream. I don't mind the ending so much if I see SS and Woman and companion pieces, and that the dream Robinson has of Bennett and murder is his recollection of a past crime involving her and how it continues to haunt him. Not that I intend a lot of people to buy into this theory, but it allows me to see Woman in a far more interesting light than as a simple "it was all a dream" cop-out.

[knives]

To the mysteries of taste indeed. Finally watched Pursued, which doesn't belong on a noir list to my eyes, and, despite it having two of my favorite stars and a great director at the helm, found it to be sloppy, uneven, poorly structured, and not particularly memorable or interesting. Wah-wah.

Pursued

Domino’s shrug prompted me to watch this again, so, first things first: Domino, are you insane?

Pursued is an interesting test case in determining the boundaries of noir, since it’s clearly, even primarily, something else – a western.

Speaking of tough cases, I'm going to have to vote for Seconds and Mickey One even though they're really the birth of neo-noir, rather than the classics everyone is emphasizing. Still, they are the most important tissue between the two and it would be a historical blunder to leave them out. That doesn't even go into their merits as noir and as films.

[Yojimbo]

I can't remember seeing it previously and while its not quite Major League noir, I think I can safely say that 'The Dark Corner' will make my 50.

Most of the credit is due to the beautiful cinematography of Joe MacDonald, particularly the night-time indoor shots, whether at p.i. Mark Stevens office, or apartment, and usually involving his confrontations with heavy William Bendix.
But there also wonderful shots of a gallery, reminiscent of scenes from 'Citizen Kane', and a location downtown chase scenes.

Macdonald might not be quite in John Alton's league but most of his noir films will make my 50: certainly two other films he made with director Henry Hathaway, 'Call Northside 777', 'Niagara', and possibly also 'The Street With No Name', while he'll also secure a place with Sam Fuller's 'Pickup on South Street', if not 'House of Bamboo'.
Director Hathaway, is, of course, a shoo-in for 'Kiss of Death'.

Star Stevens is something of a cross between Alan Ladd and Dana Andrews, and although by any standards a 'B' noir star, as is his co-star, Lucille Ball, - perhaps too many wisecracks for my liking here, - but he does a decent job here.

Acting wise, the main men for me are William Bendix and Clifton Webb.

I'm not usually a fan of either but Bendix combines oily and menacing, beautifully, but its Webb who gives the far superior performance, in a better rounded character than his more famous Waldo of 'Laura': there he was somewhat overly prissy, almost to the point of caricature; here, he's more cool and calculated in his vengeful vindictiveness as the cuckolded husband.

Nice to see Cathy Downs, who played the title character in my favourite Western get a little more to do and say here.
(and she faints wonderfully).

The script resolution is somewhat implausible and if you think too hard you'll probably spot a few holes in it but, all round, a nice piece of work

[Yojimbo]

Question for The Committee: Is 'Touch of Evil' one movie, or three? :-k

[zedz]

I'd say one movie, and you get to choose which one. Not on my list at the moment, shockingly.

The Set-Up

When that first Warners set came out, this was one of the highlights for me. It was probably one of the purest shots of Robert Ryan I’d had up to that point, and I thought the film was taut and impressive.

This time around, Ryan is as great as ever, and far and away the best thing about the film, but the rest of it doesn’t look so good. I wasn’t especially taken by the conventional dramatics and many of the supporting performances were no stymied than broadly stereotypical, stymied by the bland, generic dialogue. Poor Audrey Totter, that classic noir bad girl, is pretty much wasted cast against type, and I’m surprised she didn’t choke on that hokey curtain line.

I was impressed by the real time gimmick the first time around, but more annoyed by it this time, especially since it’s both overplayed and cheated. Overplayed in the sense that we see way too many meaningful close-ups of clock faces even though the gimmick never transcends the status of a gimmick: it’s a self-imposed screenwriting constraint, not an intrinsic element of the plot (it’s not as if there’s a bomb that’s about to go off). And it’s cheated in that the relationship of screen time to real time is both elastic and impossible: the time from people filing in for the start of an evening’s boxing entertainment to the venue being cleared and locked is, what, forty minutes? Ryan’s departure from the stadium should have been covered by the crowds of angry punters demanding their money back.

Nevertheless, this should find a place on my list, simply because Ryan is so good, and so is the film when it’s focussed most strongly on him: the fight sequences, the escape and beating.

[Yojimbo]

I could be very dogmatic here and say 'The Set-Up' is a boxing movie, but since its got the noir look down to a 't', it would be churlish of me to omit it
It was actually a shoo-in in my very first Top 100 list, which I produced almost exactly 10 years ago.
I haven't rewatched it in about 10 years, but since I've always loved its concise, poetic beauty, I wouldn't even consider re-assessing it.

Funny how some Welles fans never forgive Wise for his butchering of 'The Magnificent Ambersons', when he produced such sublime mini-Masterpieces as this one, and the two 'cat peoples', - not to mention a whole clutch of well-crafted genre flicks

[domino harvey]

I'm counting votes for any version of Touch of Evil together. Deal with it

[knives]

the two 'cat peoples',

Two?
I've never really understood the love for Wise. He seems a bit like a poor man's Curtiz or Wyler with his none existent style, but reasonable lifting all the same. As for the Set up, Ryan aside I find it pretty unremarkable. Though the element of Ryan, who looks so trashed that at first I thought this was from the end of his career, is so powerful that that alone almost earns the film it's spot. While this has nothing directly to do with his performance I'll always remember the movie for Ryan's cauliflower ears. It honestly looks like he went in the ring with Tyson.

[domino harvey]

I had my reasons for showing it to my class and while I like the film and it definitely has its merits, it won't be making my list either.

[Yojimbo]

I'm counting votes for any version of Touch of Evil together. Deal with it

Does that mean if I include all three versions on my list you tot up the points and count it as my total for TofE?

[domino harvey]

No + No + No = No

[Yojimbo]

I've just watched (the original version of) 'Night and the City'; the final scene is beautifully shot but it reminds me of 'Force of Evil' which I haven't seen in over 10 years.
Anybody agree, or disagree?

Next up for me is 'The Man Who Watched Trains Go By'
(I suppose you could say its a 'fish out of water' double bill)

[Yojimbo]

the two 'cat peoples',

Two?
I've never really understood the love for Wise..

Yes, 'Cat People', itself, and 'Curse of the Cat People', which I think I prefer
(might be even my favourite of the Lewton horrors).

Two other Wises I love, although they're not as 'poetic', are 'I Want To Live', and 'Odds Against Tomorrow'; the jazz score is a majorr asset in each, as is their somewhat bleak, wintry look.
'Odds' is a contender for my list, although I've never really thought of the other as 'noir'

[domino harvey]

Somebody Up There Likes Me is pretty good, and of course West Side Story (neither much good for an auteurist argument though, haha)

[knives]

the two 'cat peoples',

Two?
I've never really understood the love for Wise..

Yes, 'Cat People', itself, and 'Curse of the Cat People', which I think I prefer
(might be even my favourite of the Lewton horrors).

Two other Wises I love, although they're not as 'poetic', are 'I Want To Live', and 'Odds Against Tomorrow'; the jazz score is a majorr asset in each, as is their somewhat bleak, wintry look.
'Odds' is a contender for my list, although I've never really thought of the other as 'noir'

Cat People had nothing to do with Wise, it was Tourneur.

[zedz]

Somebody Up There Likes Me is pretty good, and of course West Side Story (neither much good for an auteurist argument though, haha)

I found the film of West Side Story pretty unbearable (and sooo long), and I'm a big fan of the musical, but The Haunting is a great film, with Wise's direction being central to its greatness, and anybody who could pull off the incredible high-wire act of Curse of the Cat People earns my eternal respect. Shame I can't imagine any genre list on which I'll be able to vote for it.

[Yojimbo]

Somebody Up There Likes Me is pretty good, and of course West Side Story (neither much good for an auteurist argument though, haha)

I found the film of West Side Story pretty unbearable (and sooo long), and I'm a big fan of the musical, but The Haunting is a great film, with Wise's direction being central to its greatness, and anybody who could pull off the incredible high-wire act of Curse of the Cat People earns my eternal respect. Shame I can't imagine any genre list on which I'll be able to vote for it.

I guess since its generally classed as a Lewton 'horror', it will be aceptable to include it in that genre list.
Unless we're doing an 'Unclassifiable' list!

[Yojimbo]

Cat People had nothing to do with Wise, it was Tourneur.

I really should double-check on these things with IMDb! :-#
(well I'm sure he did 'The Body Snatcher'!)

[Mr Sausage]

Somebody Up There Likes Me is pretty good, and of course West Side Story (neither much good for an auteurist argument though, haha)

I found the film of West Side Story pretty unbearable (and sooo long), and I'm a big fan of the musical, but The Haunting is a great film, with Wise's direction being central to its greatness, and anybody who could pull off the incredible high-wire act of Curse of the Cat People earns my eternal respect. Shame I can't imagine any genre list on which I'll be able to vote for it.

A hearty second to both of those movies. The Haunting is a feat of pure style and the equal of that other great ghost film, The Innocents, in that it conjures two equally probable narratives--either there is a genuine supernatural element, or everything is imagined by the characters--without giving precedence to either of them. And, what's more, it uses that carefully crafted ambiguous space to scare the hell out of you.

As for Curse of the Cat People, I tend to split the auteurism between Lewton and Wise, but it must be said that without Wise's extraordinarily sensitive touch, that movie could not have succeeded.

I also really like Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but I won't ever try to convince other people to follow my lead on that one, not even Trekkies.

[Yojimbo]

Agreed about both of those classic horror films.
Wise also made two decent, very different, sci-fi movies: 'The Day The Earth Stood Still', and 'The Andromeda Strain'
Not forgetting, of course, 'Born To Kill', his noir collaboration with Lawrence Tierney, Claire Trevor, and a whole clutch of nifty support actors

[domino harvey]

Union Station is a "Wow"-inducing top-tier noir that exceeded my expectations at all turns. I strongly suspect David Mamet gave it a viewing before making Heist, as this film's fingerprints are all over that one. Wonderful wordless choreography between professionals and the subjects they tail plays throughout the film, though perhaps the pic's best moments are probably in the virtuoso opening sequence, which finds William Holden walking through his train station and effortlessly spotting every graft and criminal act with the grace of a ballet dancer. The film counters the grace of this internal mechanism with a seedy, exceedingly negative worldview ascribed to both the criminals and particularly the police-- even Barry Fitzgerald gets to be dickish, and suspects are dangled in-front of approaching trains and literally stampeded to death! But even the innocents can't escape the film's dirty play, as evidenced by the blind kidnap victim who is placed into a proto-Saw predicament involving live wires and abandoned tunnels... Thank God for Olive Films rescuing this one from obscurity-- it's placing very high for me, and with good reason.

[colinr0380]

The kidnapped nicey-nicey daughter of a privileged father in Union Station could seem to have provided the template for all of those victims in 90s serial killer films from Silence of the Lambs to those Morgan Freeman thrillers!

A moment that I thought was great in the film was the use of the decoupling trains and jumping from one to the other to escape a tail! Of course that character didn't reckon for the herd of cattle to bring a halt to his escape! And I particularly like the sympathetic, yet doomed, gangsters moll who gets briefly sketched in and disposed of in just a couple of scenes around the middle of the film, the first point where we cut away from the perspective of our train station heroes.

I also enjoyed way that the public and private spaces are used, with the window of the offices affording a surreptitious, pre-CCTV style view across the station hall below.

I have a few issues with the way that our 'heroine' in the picture still remains prominent even when she is really peripheral to the story after the opening sequence - it feels a bit too obvious that she is kept in the picture for shoehorned love interest purposes than through any naturally occuring developments, but that is quite a minor quibble and is easy enough to come to terms with.

[domino harvey]

And I particularly like the sympathetic, yet doomed, gangsters moll who gets briefly sketched in and disposed of in just a couple of scenes around the middle of the film, the first point where we cut away from the perspective of our train station heroes.

She's great and is of course played by Jan Sterling, who memorably played Gita ("I've got news for them!") in Caged

Broke in that sweet French Allan Dwan box with Slightly Scarlet before the holiday festivities and while I won't have time to get to the others until next month when we start the Westerns List, I can't wait to dive into more Dwan. I'd heard good things about the pic forever and it didn't disappoint. Arlene Dahl has a terrific unsettled, kittenish presence that balances out Rhonda Fleming's somewhat more subdued take, and both are grand foils for the ugly brutes that surround them. The film straddles the noir/melodrama line for all its worth and the pic has an uneasy relationship with its "heroines" that gives fuel to the fires. This is noir all over, meaning that now my list will have three color "noirs" placing (I'm still undecided about whether to place Chinatown and Pretty Poison, the only two neo-noirs that would potentially make it, but that'd make five I guess)

[Yojimbo]

Broke in that sweet French Allan Dwan box with Slightly Scarlet before the holiday festivities and while I won't have time to get to the others until next month when we start the Westerns List, I can't wait to dive into more Dwan. I'd heard good things about the pic forever and it didn't disappoint. Arlene Dahl has a terrific unsettled, kittenish presence that balances out Rhonda Fleming's somewhat more subdued take, and both are grand foils for the ugly brutes that surround them. The film straddles the noir/melodrama line for all its worth and the pic has an uneasy relationship with its "heroines" that gives fuel to the fires. This is noir all over, meaning that now my list will have three color "noirs" placing (I'm still undecided about whether to place Chinatown and Pretty Poison, the only two neo-noirs that would potentially make it, but that'd make five I guess)

I would recommend 'Kill Me Again' and 'The Kill-Off' for additions to your colour noir representation, dom,. although I'm not sure if the latter is available on DVD.
Chinatown will probably make my Top Five; although I haven't usually listed it in my personal list, with a narrower definition of noirs, it meets the spirit and sensibilities, if not the technical requirements.
Glad you loved Slightly Scarlet; Arlene Dahl must have had a ball making it!