Kino

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:28 pm

Re: Kino

#1526 Post by captveg »

Nevermind. The word we're looking for is technically opportunism. (see below) I was getting uber-facetious to no real purpose.
swo17 wrote:Region locking restricts sales. It is inherently non-opportunistic, unless it is another company's sales you are restricting. This was Kino's motivation behind region locking this one release (restricting the superior MoC version's sales in the US) and it is precisely what makes them opportunistic with regard to their Blu-ray sales and Criterion not.
So.... Kino Region locking their own release (post-FUBAR) to Region A is not opportunistic, but requesting a deal to have the alternate territory region lock their release is opportunistic.

Cancels each other out then, no? Region A/Not opportunistic + other territories Region B/C / Opportunistic = 0 extra advantage.
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swo17
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Re: Kino

#1527 Post by swo17 »

How opportunistic of you to select that one definition of the word.

I can't believe I am typing this now, but if I enter "opportunistic definition" into google, "taking immediate advantage, often unethically, of any circumstance of possible benefit" is the first thing I see.
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captveg
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Re: Kino

#1528 Post by captveg »

swo17 wrote:How opportunistic of you to select that one definition of the word.

I can't believe I am typing this now, but if I enter "opportunistic definition" into google, "taking immediate advantage, often unethically, of any circumstance of possible benefit" is the first thing I see.
Yeah. yeah, I know. Hence my edit. Was getting way too snarky for my own good. :P

For the record:

op·por·tun·ism

–noun
1. the policy or practice, as in politics, business, or one's personal affairs, of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to expediency or effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles.

2. action or judgment in accordance with this policy.
swo17 wrote:And by the way, I love Kino and own many of their releases. This has nothing to do with brand loyalty.
I was only pointing out the double-standard to the boycotting crowd.

If the standard of boycotting is changing standards on a title to title basis, then fine. Makes little sense to me, but OK. Kino changes their region coding title to title: boycott. Criterion is always the same: embrace. What about MoC, which is sometimes region locked (not just Metropolis), and sometimes not. If 100% consistency is the rule to judge by, wouldn't this encourage a boycott of the inconsistent MoC?

But of course not, because it's the *perceived motive of an unfair business advantage* of Kino's request that is upsetting people. MoC would never, of course, request a competitor region lock to A for their benefit to Region B sales in the view of some. As if they're motivation for their open region titles is not to gain the business upper hand and increase sales where they could. This is what I don't get. All these companies are gonna try for their best business scenario. If MoC made a mistake in agreeing to Region Code Metropolis along with the other territories, then that's THEY'RE business decision - not Kino's or anyone else's. They could have chosen to NOT distribute Metropolis if that was a condition of distribution rights in their territory that gave terrible offense or too narrowly limited potential sales.

In the end, it's ultimately just fascinating to me all the reactions to this. As someone else said above, this is a pretty obscure situation for obscure labels, compounded by an obscure authoring mistake.
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swo17
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Re: Kino

#1529 Post by swo17 »

MoC's approach has been entirely consistent and is well documented on this forum: release everything region-free unless someone requests that they region lock. In comparison, Kino's: release everything region-free unless it appears that a competitor in another region will be putting out a competitive product, in which case, insist that everyone region lock in order to keep that competitive product out of the market.
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MichaelB
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Re: Kino

#1530 Post by MichaelB »

swo17 wrote:MoC's approach has been entirely consistent and is well documented on this forum: release everything region-free unless someone requests that they region lock. In comparison, Kino's: release everything region-free unless it appears that a competitor in another region will be putting out a competitive product, in which case, insist that everyone region lock in order to keep that competitive product out of the market.
Exactly. And this is why I have an ethical problem with Kino's stance, and I don't with either Criterion's position or the MoC/BFI one. Kino are being overtly protectionist in a way that the others aren't - and indeed inconsistent in a way that the others haven't been.

The really stupid thing is that if Kino hadn't done this, they'd be the only one of the four distributors with a 100% region-free track record - something MoC would love to have had themselves!
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captveg
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Re: Kino

#1531 Post by captveg »

MichaelB wrote:
swo17 wrote:MoC's approach has been entirely consistent and is well documented on this forum: release everything region-free unless someone requests that they region lock. In comparison, Kino's: release everything region-free unless it appears that a competitor in another region will be putting out a competitive product, in which case, insist that everyone region lock in order to keep that competitive product out of the market.
Exactly. And this is why I have an ethical problem with Kino's stance, and I don't with either Criterion's position or the MoC/BFI one. Kino are being overtly protectionist in a way that the others aren't - and indeed inconsistent in a way that the others haven't been.

The really stupid thing is that if Kino hadn't done this, they'd be the only one of the four distributors with a 100% region-free track record - something MoC would love to have had themselves!
I can at least see this argument as being one to by irked about. Talking ethics is a bit much, IMO, but annoyed, sure.

I guess the true test for Kino will be if they'll Region lock to A if a competitor in another region requests it of them. I'm thinking they would.
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Tommaso
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Re: Kino

#1532 Post by Tommaso »

I even agree with you, swo and Michael. But what I really don't understand is why this discussion about opportunism et al didn't start already when the region-coding deal with MoC was first mentioned here, i.e. 2 months ago, if it is of such general importance for people. Nobody seemed to have those 'ethical problems' then, or at least they were not voiced as loudly as now. Kino has made a fishy looking authoring mistake helped to spark the discussion, of course, but now they seem to have rectified this mistake and even Nick has stated in the "Metropolis" thread that he would put matters at rest for the moment. So we should be back at the same point as before the faulty first pressing of the Kino disc.

I indeed think that some long-standing anti-Kino feelings combined with uncritical CC and/or MoC-fandom makes itself heard here. And mind you, I said some very critical words about Kino myself some years ago, when they really deserved it for some of their releases.
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zedz
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Re: Kino

#1533 Post by zedz »

Titus wrote:What I don't understand is what a boycott like this will accomplish.
Almost certainly nothing, but isn't that the case for almost any consumer decision to buy or not buy something on ethical grounds? I don't care one way or another whether anybody else follows suit.

And by this point, all the semantics and Criterion analogies seem incredibly disingenuous. Kino's aim and motivation here - to exclude MoC from competition with them on this particular product in this particular instance - have been clear from the outset. They've achieved those ends handsomely. You can applaud that, or, like me, disagree with both ends and means. Whatever, it's up to you.
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swo17
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Re: Kino

#1534 Post by swo17 »

Tommaso wrote:I even agree with you, swo and Michael. But what I really don't understand is why this discussion about opportunism et al didn't start already when the region-coding deal with MoC was first mentioned here, i.e. 2 months ago, if it is of such general importance for people.
Good point. I remember some discussion at the time, but certainly nothing like what there's been over the past week. I suppose KINO SCREWS MOC just makes a better headline than MOC REGION LOCKS AGAIN DESPITE PHILOSOPHICAL OPPOSITION TO THE PRACTICE. I for one am willing to let the issue rest as long as Nick is apparently satisfied. I only really responded to posts today to clarify some points I felt were being misunderstood.
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Kino

#1535 Post by matrixschmatrix »

captveg wrote: I guess the true test for Kino will be if they'll Region lock to A if a competitor in another region requests it of them. I'm thinking they would.
As I understand it, it's more that someone from one or another market recommends to the distributor that it be region locked, after which everyone working with that distributor in all markets has to- it's not just an agreement between the DVD companies.
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captveg
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Re: Kino

#1536 Post by captveg »

matrixschmatrix wrote:
captveg wrote:I guess the true test for Kino will be if they'll Region lock to A if a competitor in another region requests it of them. I'm thinking they would.
As I understand it, it's more that someone from one or another market recommends to the distributor that it be region locked, after which everyone working with that distributor in all markets has to- it's not just an agreement between the DVD companies.
True.
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pro-bassoonist
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Re: Kino

#1537 Post by pro-bassoonist »

swo17 wrote:Region locking restricts sales. It is inherently non-opportunistic, unless it is another company's sales you are restricting.
It also makes a lot of sales possible!

Without region limitations (and this goes all the way back to 1993/95, when a lot of the majors decided to enter the Eastern European block and sell VHS copies of various films to the then largely mafia-run home entertainment businesses - which is how MacroVision flourished - and later on port the SDVD region restrictions) there will be absolutely no releases in a number of Eastern European countries, as well as many of the former Soviet republics. So this notion that I see regularly promoted on various forums that Region coding/locking is somehow anti-consumer comes primarily from people who really have no experience as to how licensing works, or simply assume that the way business is done in the E.U and North America, or other developed markets in Asia, is how business is done everywhere else in the world. In a lot of smaller markets Region limitations and sublicensing is actually one of the very few ways to ensure that small local distributors exist - who are often times the only parties that decide to bring certain local releases to DVD and now Blu-ray. I can list more than a dozen films that I looked at this year, from Estonia to Serbia (and a few distributors I worked with), that would have never appeared on DVD had the tiny distributors who put them on the markets there were not sublicensees promoting the "locked" releases of the U.S. majors, which basically allow them to exist. You want to argue that there should be no region-locking? Fine, in these markets it means that there would be no sublicensees because the majors won't send product there if it is not restricted, which means that there will be no money to produce and sell local films.

Really, this things-are-black-and-white talk that has been going on in regard to region coding/restricting makes for great discussions and rallying the consumer troops, but the reality is slightly different.
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swo17
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Re: Kino

#1538 Post by swo17 »

Those are good points and I agree with them, though to be clear, my comment was only meant to address the microeconomics of an individual company's decision to region lock. It probably goes without saying that if a company region locks its release, it is restricting its own sales.
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Kino

#1539 Post by matrixschmatrix »

Pro-Bassoonist:

One of the points Nick has made is that a lot of that argument falls down when you consider that all of Europe and the UK is one large region (for blu-rays, anyway), region B- even though the distribution agreements treat the various countries as different markets. Wouldn't that mean that tiny little Serbian and Estonian companies would have to compete with the EU/UK majors regardless?
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pro-bassoonist
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Re: Kino

#1540 Post by pro-bassoonist »

matrixschmatrix,

I would try to quickly answer your question but I have a feeling I might be misinterpreting it. So if I am, please feel free to redirect me.

1. Europe is one big region, but it isn't one big market - which is why a number of regulations are needed.

2. You cannot abandon region restrictions completely because the bulk of the money that is being made in this business is from sublicensing. And it is not only the U.S. majors making money off of it, but other smaller distributors as well. I understand what some people are trying to promote - no region coding, multiple producers. Fine. The problem here is that this is a scenario that could only work well for a limited amount of English-friendly films that would service Europe and other selected non-European markets (North America, Australia, Hong Kong, etc). You see, the moment you abandon Region-locking, many content owners will start selling language/subtitling rights -- this would mean that you would see an enormous amount of imposed subtitles on many releases. Actually, this is how many content owners work the system right now, but if you abandon region restrictions, it would become the standard - you could either code a release whose rights are sold to multiple parties in multiple regions or request imposed subtitles in the contract to prevent parallel import. With other words, abandoning region restrictions (meaning coding) will automatically bring another form of limitation.

3. Additionally, you would lose a ton of supplemental features with many releases that cannot be made available in multiple markets. Example: I recently had a very long email discussion with a French producer from a fairly large studio that simply could not get clearance on a number of supplemental features from the U.S. party that produced them because the previous owners, the now defunct Polygram Films, apparently did a lot to have them sold individually in multiple markets. Imagine what would happen if one European distributor decides to get clearance for U.S.-produced supplemental features for the whole of Europe. The distributor would probably spend more money on negotiations than on the actual release. Of course, this is an extreme example, but it should give you an idea how complicated everything is.

Lastly, I certainly understand that the system we have in place now isn't perfect and that it could create a lot of problems for small distributors, such as MOC, that are trying very hard to do everything right. And I completely understand why Nick is so upset with this KINO gaffe, because MOC were probably betting to make up with Metropolis for a lot of the other releases that did not sell as well as they had hoped, but believe me when I tell you that the Blu-ray market is the most consumer-friendly one we've had since...well, since people started buying films and building their collections some 35-40 years ago.

As strange as it may sound, there is something of an acceptable balance now -- many of the big boys can sell their BDs in multiple big regions with multiple subtitle options; many of the problematic markets are somewhat monitored and affected by the restrictive coding (to make the big boys happy); there is still some sublicensing money around to keep a good number of the small distributors alive (and have them take care of various locally produced films) and have a number of non-English friendly small distributors locking their releases and adding optional English subtitles but selling the rights to other interested parties around the world.

Bottom line is this - just like you can't have a global economy without certain restrictions (to prevent monopoly and abuse) to avoid chaos that could destroy it, you can't have a completely free market without at least some sort of coding.

I hope this makes sense.

OK back to work now :)

Pro-B
Last edited by pro-bassoonist on Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Kino

#1541 Post by matrixschmatrix »

Well that's interesting, and I do understand the argument, but it still seems as though the argument is that Europe comprises a lot of very small markets which need to have the right to license individually from producers. That makes sense. Blu-ray region locking, though, treats all of Europe as one single market- there's only one region code available for Europe- which seems like it undercuts that idea.

It seems as though many content distributors are willing to assume that most people will not import, regardless of region restrictions, so that it's safe to sell separately to different markets without them- as apparently would have been the case on Metropolis, but for Kino's intervention.

It's possible I'm missing something, because I'm not sure I fully understand your point about forced subs, but it seems as though region locking is (like most other ways imposed on consumers to stop them doing as they please) something of a lost cause- it may be specific to America, but I don't know anyone who would bother importing DVDs in the first place who doesn't know how to get around region restrictions. That's less true for Blu-ray, but I don't think it will remain less true for long.
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MichaelB
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Re: Kino

#1542 Post by MichaelB »

Tommaso wrote:I indeed think that some long-standing anti-Kino feelings combined with uncritical CC and/or MoC-fandom makes itself heard here. And mind you, I said some very critical words about Kino myself some years ago, when they really deserved it for some of their releases.
Sorry, Tommaso, but I really strongly disagree with this. I've been hugely pro-Kino for over a decade (and can almost certainly prove it through past posts in this subforum alone, though my positive reviews must also be comfortably into double figures), and I'd be very very surprised indeed if Zedz was a Kino-basher given both his tastes and his frequently repeated views that transfer quality isn't the be-all and end-all if a film is as rare as many of the titles they handle. And I'm also by no means a Criterion fanboy - in fact, I own relatively few of their recent releases and none of their Blu-rays. In fact, I've opposed their blanket region-coding policy time and again both here and elsewhere (although at least it's consistent).

In fact, I think part of the problem is the polar opposite of "long-standing anti-Kino feelings" - it's that I always bracketed Kino in the same camp as other favourite labels such as Second Run, Flicker Alley, etc. Corners may be cut for entirely understandable reasons (given the rarity of much of what they release), but there's no doubt at all that these are genuine labour-of-love efforts. So when one of my favourite distributors appears to be screwing another one over (note the "appears to be"), I take it badly - far more than I would if a company I'd never heard of before had behaved identically.
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Re: Kino

#1543 Post by MichaelB »

matrixschmatrix wrote:Well that's interesting, and I do understand the argument, but it still seems as though the argument is that Europe comprises a lot of very small markets which need to have the right to license individually from producers. That makes sense. Blu-ray region locking, though, treats all of Europe as one single market- there's only one region code available for Europe- which seems like it undercuts that idea.
They didn't have a choice under European single market rules. Back in the 1990s when DVD region coding was first devised, the Hollywood majors wanted to subdivide Europe into multiple zones, but this turned out to be illegal - which is why Europe has always been Region 2 tout court. I imagine they could have created a separate zone for non-EU countries like Switzerland, Norway and so on, but that was presumably judged too messy.
It seems as though many content distributors are willing to assume that most people will not import, regardless of region restrictions, so that it's safe to sell separately to different markets without them- as apparently would have been the case on Metropolis, but for Kino's intervention.
Officially, distributors aren't supposed to sell outside their territory. In practice, they're powerless to stop people importing, and of course have no incentive to do so - a release as high-profile as Metropolis would certainly have sold plenty of copies abroad (just as I imagine Kino's Blu-ray catalogue has sold plenty in Europe - I own much of it myself).

And some distributors go out of their way to make their discs as compatible as possible - the BFI deliberately mastered their Ritwik Ghatak DVDs to NTSC, and I believe all their Blu-rays to date are 1080p throughout, with all SD PAL content relegated to supplementary DVDs (which are more likely to be compatible internationally). MoC has a similar policy, only in their case the SD video content on their Blu-rays is in 480p, which any player should be able to handle.
It's possible I'm missing something, because I'm not sure I fully understand your point about forced subs,
Sometimes rightsholders insist on language restrictions as part of the licensing agreement - either forced subtitles, or no subtitles in a particular language. Ruscico's own DVDs have multiple language tracks and even more subtitle options, but the versions distributed by Nouveaux in the UK are far more restricted - either to unsubtitled English dubs or the original Russian with forced English subs. I don't imagine for one second that this was Nouveaux's choice, and I know that MoC's insistence on unforced subtitles meant that they couldn't licence certain titles. French DVDs are notorious for not often offering English subtitles, probably because the rightsholder has his eye on sales to English-speaking territories - conversely, countries like Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary tend to offer English subs more often than not, because it's vanishingly rare that rights get sold to the UK, so they might as well encourage the likes of me to import.
but it seems as though region locking is (like most other ways imposed on consumers to stop them doing as they please) something of a lost cause- it may be specific to America, but I don't know anyone who would bother importing DVDs in the first place who doesn't know how to get around region restrictions. That's less true for Blu-ray, but I don't think it will remain less true for long.
Almost certainly not, though I haven't taken the plunge yet as it seems to me that we're still in the equivalent of the DVD situation in the late 1990s - i.e. going multiregion was possible, but expensive and unreliable.
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Tribe
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Re: Kino

#1544 Post by Tribe »

MichaelB wrote: In fact, I think part of the problem is the polar opposite of "long-standing anti-Kino feelings" - it's that I always bracketed Kino in the same camp as other favourite labels such as Second Run, Flicker Alley, etc. Corners may be cut for entirely understandable reasons (given the rarity of much of what they release), but there's no doubt at all that these are genuine labour-of-love efforts.
I own well over a hundred Kino releases (not including those where I've upgraded to better editions over the years...which would put me very close to around 200 Kino DVDs). Until relatively recently with what appears to be top quality BluRay editions, Kino never came off as terribly consumer friendly what with their sub par transfers and Criterion prices which always came across as something more negative than mere corner cutting. Perhaps they are making a concerted effort to change that, and I hope they are. I've been a supporter of them, while having relatively minor gripes. But the days when a major DVD venture could get away with merely releasing a movie, no matter how iconic or famous, with no quality control standards are long gone.
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MichaelB
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Re: Kino

#1545 Post by MichaelB »

I think the bulk of my Kino purchasing occurred during the mid-2000s when the pound-to-dollar exchange rate was 1:2 or better.

Which is another reason why I haven't bought too many Criterion releases lately (I can at least play their DVDs, if not their Blu-rays).
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Tommaso
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Re: Kino

#1546 Post by Tommaso »

MichaelB wrote:In fact, I think part of the problem is the polar opposite of "long-standing anti-Kino feelings" - it's that I always bracketed Kino in the same camp as other favourite labels such as Second Run, Flicker Alley, etc. Corners may be cut for entirely understandable reasons (given the rarity of much of what they release), but there's no doubt at all that these are genuine labour-of-love efforts. So when one of my favourite distributors appears to be screwing another one over (note the "appears to be"), I take it badly - far more than I would if a company I'd never heard of before had behaved identically.
Michael, my comment about 'long-standing anti-Kino feelings" wasn't directed at you or zedz specifically, although the way I phrased it or the context might have led to this misunderstanding. And of course I agree with everything else you write in the quoted paragraph. But I simply find it unfair to continue with the 'bashing' now that Kino have done everything they could to reduce the damage done. They are simply not screwing MoC anymore, and personally I don't think they ever intended to.

After all, MoC were fully knowing what they did when they agreed to region-code their release. If demanding region-coding was 'unethical' (which it isn't, it's just a stupid nuisance) and MoC were so absolutely against it as a question of 'honour' or something, there would have been a simple solution: not to release "Metropolis" at all. Of course that's only theoretically speaking, because MoC is a business, thankfully, and as such they had to do what the rightsholders and Kino demanded.
MichaelB wrote:Officially, distributors aren't supposed to sell outside their territory. In practice, they're powerless to stop people importing, and of course have no incentive to do so
That's why I always find the "For sale in the UK and Ireland only" disclaimer on MoC discs funny. Trying to sell only to those two countries would be against the European Free Trade laws, probably (correct me if I'm wrong), and of course Eureka happily accepted my pre-order for the steelbook although I don't live in the UK nor in Ireland. So different territorial rights in Europe simply make no sense, although a release in France, Germany or Spain would be seriously limited in its export chances because of the lack of English subs or forced subs in the language of these countries. And burnt-in subs are a damn effective way of regional protection outside of the English-speaking world.
macaca
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Re: Kino

#1547 Post by macaca »

in other news,

i emailed KINO about the release of 'dogtooth' on blu-ray, and got this response:
"At the moment, we have no plans to release DOGTOOTH on Blu-Ray. It is DVD only."

i cant believe a film thats geared towards film fans, (released on a 'boutique label' none-the-less) is being ignored on the best possible format.
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MichaelB
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Re: Kino

#1548 Post by MichaelB »

If you're multi-region-equipped, it's out on Blu-ray in Britain courtesy of Verve Pictures - review here.
macaca
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Re: Kino

#1549 Post by macaca »

MichaelB wrote:If you're multi-region-equipped, it's out on Blu-ray in Britain courtesy of Verve Pictures - review here.
im not, but the extras on the KINO version are far more interesting:
-Interview with Director Yorgos Lanthimos
-Deleted Scenes
-Trailer
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