Kino

[Tommaso]

I think we all agree that region coding is bullshit in the first place. But apparently Kino, hypocritically or not, managed to get an agreement with MoC about it. And I have not yet heard any answer for WHY MoC entered into that agreement in the first place, unless the rightsholders (Transit) forced them to.

And I don't really want to think about the reactions if it had transpired that CC accidentally had forgotten to region code, say, their "Red Shoes" blu. I'm pretty sure they'd sound more like "Hallelujah" in many quarters...

[swo17]

](*,)

Just one more repercussion of this whole mess: zedz' embracing of emoticons.

[zedz]

And I don't really want to think about the reactions if it had transpired that CC accidentally had forgotten to region code, say, their "Red Shoes" blu. I'm pretty sure they'd sound more like "Hallelujah" in many quarters...

Well, again, the situation would only be analogous if a series of simultaneous, competing international BluRay releases of The Red Shoes, intended to be region-free, had been forced to adopt region-coding at Criterion's sole insistence (and it's very easy to imagine the company controlling the release in the largest territory being able to wield sufficient persuasive power with the licensor to make such a stipulation stick), and if all other Criterion BluRays up to that point had been released region-free. And their action in that instance would be just as ethically dubious as Kino's.

[matrixschmatrix]

I think we all agree that region coding is bullshit in the first place. But apparently Kino, hypocritically or not, managed to get an agreement with MoC about it. And I have not yet heard any answer for WHY MoC entered into that agreement in the first place, unless the rightsholders (Transit) forced them to.

At some point in the discussion that happened the first time through on this, Nick said something along the lines of 'the rightsholders tend to listen to what the distributors recommend'- with the implication that Kino recommended that region locking was the safe way to go to the rightsholders, so MoC had to follow. Which, given that Kino usually doesn't lock its blus, seemed somewhat hypocritical in the first place.

[Minkin]

Bluray.com lovingly makes MoC look like the bad guys.Well, through not stating it was Kino's fault to begin with

One user thought MoC was particularly unfair to the German market....

The FW Mürnau Institute could have complained that the Eureka Blu-ray had only optional subtitles, which makes a German Blu-ray release almost pointless.

[captveg]

The issue isn't, and never has been, primarily about Kino selling their discs overseas. The initial hypocrisy was in their insisting on region coding only in this instance, when it was clear they had the inferior product and wanted to protect the US market for themselves. Kino are completely laissez-faire about region-free BluRays when it works in their favour.

Oh, boo-hoo. Not every business decision is going to be to everyone's liking. And, frankly, if I'm running a business, you bet your ass I'm adopting all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market.

[Tribe]

Oh, boo-hoo. Not every business decision is going to be to everyone's liking. And, frankly, if I'm running a business, you bet your ass I'm adopting all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market.

Captveg, until now you had been something of a voice of reason in connection with this dispute. Now, it appears you're taking the position that it's a good thing to fuck someone else over so long as it's legal. For example, it might be entirely legal in your particular jurisdiction to fabricate your product in some country where only children and prisoners do the work, sometimes with no pay. You then sell your products in your jurisdiction at prices that would be warranted if you hired local employees at a living wage. It's legal, you make a killing, and it's good business for you.

You can't be serious when you say its the right thing to adopt "all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market. Needless to say, I'm not intimating at all that Kino did anything immoral or unethical here since I've never been privy to all the facts.

[swo17]

all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market

Other than putting out a non-inferior product.

[zedz]

Oh, boo-hoo. Not every business decision is going to be to everyone's liking. And, frankly, if I'm running a business, you bet your ass I'm adopting all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market.

Has anybody disputed the legality of Kino's actions? They pulled a fast one on MoC and got away with it. You can choose to cheerlead from the sidelines if you're so inclined, applauding their business acumen, or you can choose to spend your money elsewhere. There are plenty of deserving and struggling niche labels out there who could do with the business. Ultimately it's up to the consumer, and if Kino want to operate this way, they have to be prepared to take the downside of negative publicity with the upside of locking their main rival out of their market.

EDIT: Oh, and touché, swo.

[captveg]

Oh, boo-hoo. Not every business decision is going to be to everyone's liking. And, frankly, if I'm running a business, you bet your ass I'm adopting all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market.

Captveg, until now you had been something of a voice of reason in connection with this dispute. Now, it appears you're taking the position that it's a good thing to fuck someone else over so long as it's legal. For example, it might be entirely legal in your particular jurisdiction to fabricate your product in some country where only children and prisoners do the work, sometimes with no pay. You then sell your products in your jurisdiction at prices that would be warranted if you hired local employees at a living wage. It's legal, you make a killing, and it's good business for you.

You can't be serious when you say its the right thing to adopt "all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market. Needless to say, I'm not intimating at all that Kino did anything immoral or unethical here since I've never been privy to all the facts.

Oh, give me a break. We're not talking about abuse of power that harms a single human being, or is questionable in its ethics in regards to the treatment of lower classes or minors. What a straw man bullshit argument. We're talking about a luxury product like silent film blu-rays in a 1st world market.

all the perfectly legal means to ensure my product makes the most profit I can in my market

Other than putting out a non-inferior product.

Which isn't the point whatsoever. If Kino wants to have two hours of footage of people crapping in a bag and work to have it Region A locked for reasonable profit motives that's their right. I'm not suggesting anybody be forced to buy anything Kino releases. If you don't want their product, that's your choice. If you want MoC's product, that's also your choice. And don't give me any of this bitchfest moaning about Kino forcing MoC to do anything. MoC agreed to it and so that's what it is. This is hardly their first Region B locked release anyway. I imagine those of you that like to purchase MoC are still doing so anyway.

[Tribe]

Oh, give me a break. We're not talking about abuse of power that harms a single human being, or is questionable in its ethics in regards to the treatment of lower classes or minors. What a straw man bullshit argument. We're talking about a luxury product like silent film blu-rays in a 1st world market.

Well, seems I've touched a nerve, which wasn't my intent...and it seems you're taken all this quite hard.

[captveg]

Has anybody disputed the legality of Kino's actions? They pulled a fast one on MoC and got away with it. You can choose to cheerlead from the sidelines if you're so inclined, applauding their business acumen, or you can choose to spend your money elsewhere. There are plenty of deserving and struggling niche labels out there who could do with the business. Ultimately it's up to the consumer, and if Kino want to operate this way, they have to be prepared to take the downside of negative publicity with the upside of locking their main rival out of their market.

Of course the consumer has their choice. No duh. But to actually be offended as if Kino personally wronged people - which many seem to take Region Coding as - it's patently idiotic. They made a business decision some people don't like. OK.... so what? Life goes on, and there are very simple means to solve the issue: Buy a region free player and import MoC's release. I would imagine that the vast majority of US consumers interested in niche cinema and keeping track of non-US territory releases have $150 to buy the Momitsu player. Hell, I'm at the point where I'd be willing to buy one for some of you guys so you can get your precious MoC Metropolis just so this ridiculous feigning of offense and moral outrage can be over. (Note: Yes, that was sarcasm. It's a joke people, for pete's sake. Lighten up about this region coding thing).

[Brian C]

Really, Tribe? Kino wanting MoC to agree to region-coding is like companies forcing kids into slave labor? Analogy fail.

Whatever else happened, it was perfectly ethical for Kino to request region coding. I can understand why folks, as consumers, would be upset about it, but there's nothing wrong with them doing that at all. And neither captveg or anyone else was defending Kino's behavior except on the grounds that it was likely an unintentional mistake on their part. Of course everyone (I presume) would agree that this was deeply unethical if Kino violated their agreement on purpose.

[captveg]

Oh, give me a break. We're not talking about abuse of power that harms a single human being, or is questionable in its ethics in regards to the treatment of lower classes or minors. What a straw man bullshit argument. We're talking about a luxury product like silent film blu-rays in a 1st world market.

Well, seems I've touched a nerve, which wasn't my intent...and it seems you're taken all this quite hard.

LOL - I'm just killing time on the internet laughing to myself about the emo wrist-cutting going on here in regards to Region Coding / MoC being wronged / etc. Initially, of course, I figured I'd weigh in with some realistic perspective about how authoring errors are more frequent than desired, but I didn't realize I was stepping into some bizzarro field turf war with sideline fanatics for team MoC. So now it's face-palm hilarity.

But, yes, I've moved on from being nice in my attempts to talk sense of real world reason into this thread, and am now going full on into WTF mode.

[Tribe]

Really, Tribe? Kino wanting MoC to agree to region-coding is like companies forcing kids into slave labor? Analogy fail.

The extreme analogy was intended to be extreme to illustrate the point that just 'cause something is legal, doesn't make it ethical or moral, that's all. Even Captveg agrees with that one.

[captveg]

Of course everyone (I presume) would agree that this was deeply unethical if Kino violated their agreement on purpose.

Oh, absolutely. I just fail to see the logical motive (and profit) to doing so whatsoever, which was my point in the first place.

Really, Tribe? Kino wanting MoC to agree to region-coding is like companies forcing kids into slave labor? Analogy fail.

The extreme analogy was intended to be extreme to illustrate the point that just 'cause something is legal, doesn't make it ethical or moral, that's all. Even Captveg agrees with that one.

True. But, c'mon man, region coding is nowhere near a truly moral or immoral conversation. I thought it was obvious the conversation was never that when I brought up business tactics to maximize profit, LOL.

[Brian C]

The extreme analogy was intended to be extreme to illustrate the point that just 'cause something is legal, doesn't make it ethical or moral, that's all. Even Captveg agrees with that one.

Incendiary analogy in the service of a point not in dispute = completely irrelevant strawman = analogy fail

[Tribe]

Really, Tribe? Kino wanting MoC to agree to region-coding is like companies forcing kids into slave labor? Analogy fail.

The extreme analogy was intended to be extreme to illustrate the point that just 'cause something is legal, doesn't make it ethical or moral, that's all. Even Captveg agrees with that one.

True. But, c'mon man, region coding is nowhere near a truly moral or immoral conversation. I thought it was obvious the conversation was never that when I brought up business tactics to maximize profit, LOL.

Like I intimated earlier, your arguments throughout this have been pretty rational to me and as convincing as some of the other speculation. But you threw me when the maximization of the profit rationale...no big deal, I wasn't trying to be terribly polemical.

[pro-bassoonist]

Bluray.com lovingly makes MoC look like the bad guys.Well, through not stating it was Kino's fault to begin with

It would appear that you actually cannot read.

I'd suggest that you read more carefully next time before commenting.

[Titus]

Has anybody disputed the legality of Kino's actions? They pulled a fast one on MoC and got away with it. You can choose to cheerlead from the sidelines if you're so inclined, applauding their business acumen, or you can choose to spend your money elsewhere. There are plenty of deserving and struggling niche labels out there who could do with the business. Ultimately it's up to the consumer, and if Kino want to operate this way, they have to be prepared to take the downside of negative publicity with the upside of locking their main rival out of their market.

zedz, you're implying (as many others here have) that this was an intentional plan on Kino's part rather than a simple error despite the fact that there isn't any evidence of this. I don't know, I just find the whole idea of this being some kind of scheme devised by the evil masterminds at Kino to be a little hard to believe. More likely it was an honest mistake that they're now trying to rectify (apparently releasing region-locked discs simultaneously with the region free discs, advising overseas customers to buy the MoC, etc.)

Assuming that it was predominantly Kino's suggestion that led to the various releases being region locked in the first place (Nick's implied as much, though I don't think it's been explicitly confirmed), that makes the error more egregious, but I still think the backlash they're receiving is a little excessive. I mean, boycotting their releases? Kino's really getting raked over the coals in this thread, and I wonder if some posters have maybe taken this a little more personally due to the fact that it directly affects a valued member of the board. Whatever the case, it's unfortunate Shreck no longer posts regularly, as the company could certainly use his help in rehabilitating their reputation.

[Minkin]

Bluray.com lovingly makes MoC look like the bad guys.Well, through not stating it was Kino's fault to begin with

It would appear that you actually cannot read.
I'd suggest that you read more carefully next time before commenting.

The date change is probably related to an issue with region coding: this Blu-ray was supposed to be locked to region A, just like Eureka's Masters of Cinema release will be locked to region B. However, due to a miscommunication, the first pressing of Kino's release was not region coded.

To those uninformed to the situation --the bulk of bluray.com readers-- one would see that they could've had something region free but Masters of Cinema is locked to B, hence making it seem like MoC spearheaded the region encoding to begin with.. They worded it that way instead of saying "due to a hypocritical contractual error which screwed MoC to the benefit of Kino."

Perhaps I was assuming too much of people's reactions, but tell me, are you always this fun?

[swo17]

you're implying (as many others here have) that this was an intentional plan on Kino's part rather than a simple error despite the fact that there isn't any evidence of this.

Kino blocking MoC out of the US market by insisting that each of their releases be region-locked was an intentional plan on Kino's part to keep sales in the US that would have otherwise gone to MoC. A perfectly legal plan, and one that MoC agreed to, but still one that if not unethical, is just...greedy. Rather than make a version of Metropolis that people all over the world would want to import over all other versions, Kino opted to impose a hurdle (the cost of a region-free Blu-ray player) on US buyers looking to import anything else.

I wonder if some posters have maybe taken this a little more personally due to the fact that it directly affects a valued member of the board.

It's not just that Nick's a valued member of the board. This was a tentpole release and MoC will have less resources to release quality titles in the future than it would if Metropolis had been able to come out on a level, region-free playing field.

[Titus]

Kino blocking MoC out of the US market by insisting that each of their releases be region-locked was an intentional plan on Kino's part to keep sales in the US that would have otherwise gone to MoC. A perfectly legal plan, and one that MoC agreed to, but still one that if not unethical, is just...greedy. Rather than make a version of Metropolis that people all over the world would want to import over all other versions, Kino opted to impose a hurdle (the cost of a region-free Blu-ray player) on US buyers looking to import anything else.

I guess I just don't see how this is unethical -- and, as someone who is Region A-locked currently, I say that as someone affected. This is a blockbuster release for Kino as well, and trying to maximize profits on it in this manner strikes me as reasonable (especially in the current economic climate -- didn't Kino recently lay off a number of people due to financial trouble?). But that's sort of beside the point -- the reason they're being crucified is because of the Region Free Fiasco, not because they pushed for the releases to be region locked.

It's not just that Nick's a valued member of the board. This was a tentpole release and MoC will have less resources to release quality titles in the future than it would if Metropolis had been able to come out on a level, region-free playing field.

Okay, but it's not really Kino's responsibility to look after MoC's interests. I'm not saying Kino did nothing wrong here -- clearly the region-coding mistake (or "mistake," as some prefer) was a major fuckup made all the worse by the fact(?) that they were the ones pushing for the region coding in the first place. But I think the backlash is disproportionately severe when compared with the crime. Zedz is one of the most level-headed posters on this site, and his last post is almost guilting people into boycotting Kino products. I'm just not seeing anything that Kino did to warrant such a reaction.

[matrixschmatrix]

I guess I just don't see how this is unethical -- and, as someone who is Region A-locked currently, I say that as someone affected. This is a blockbuster release for Kino as well, and trying to maximize profits on it in this manner strikes me as reasonable (especially in the current economic climate -- didn't Kino recently lay off a number of people due to financial trouble?).

I could be mistaken, but as far as I can tell Kino advised the licensor that region locking was a good idea, which obviously is only true when it's self serving- they didn't tell the licensors for the General or Battleship Potemkin that. Assuming the failure to region lock this time was a mistake, it's salt in the wound, reinforcing the idea that Kino's only interest was preventing competition with the obviously superior MoC.

As much as anything, I'm irritated that Kino just didn't bother getting ahold of the Kalat/Rosenbaum commentary, or recording one of their own. It's lazy, and they wouldn't have had much economic worry from MoC to deal with if their version wasn't so obviously inferior.

That said, I still think just boycotting Kino is probably a mistake. There isn't any particular action that will rectify this, so any boycott would have to be indefinite and sort of unfocused- and as much as I wish Kino showed the consistent dedication BFI, Criterion, and MoC do, they have been putting out some great releases lately and it would be a real shame if they died.

[captveg]

I guess I just don't see how this is unethical -- and, as someone who is Region A-locked currently, I say that as someone affected. This is a blockbuster release for Kino as well, and trying to maximize profits on it in this manner strikes me as reasonable (especially in the current economic climate -- didn't Kino recently lay off a number of people due to financial trouble?). But that's sort of beside the point -- the reason they're being crucified is because of the Region Free Fiasco, not because they pushed for the releases to be region locked.

Exactly. Kino paid to license the title for US distribution. It makes reasonable sense that they would look to Region lock the disc to their region (and the competitors to theirs) due to wanting a return on their investment.

I'm sure Criterion would prefer all other territories be locked to B or C for the same reason.