Kino

[captveg]

Public apology with promise to correct oversight? Done.

Dear Bank,

I just noticed that you accidentally placed an extra $10,000 in my account. I am just writing to let you know that if you ever accidentally do this again, I will totally return the money. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a new rec room to furnish.

I trust you will now consider this oversight corrected.

Yours truly,
Captain Vegetables

Apples, oranges. And yes, I know those are fruits.

Again, Kino is gaining NO SALES due to not region coding. Those who would buy the Kino in Region A are still buying the Kino. Those who would buy the MoC in Region B are still buying the MoC. No one in Region B is buying the Kino release. Why would they? In fact, for Kino, this can only make them lose money. Bad PR is always bad for the bottom line in this industry.

Sorry, but you have exactly zero understanding of this business. You can cry foul all you want, but it won't change what actually happened here. A mistake, plain and simple. And a costly one that will cause someone to get fired, more than likely. Should we hope for a public flogging as well?

[swo17]

Again, Kino is gaining NO SALES due to not region coding. Those who would buy the Kino in Region A are still buying the Kino. Those who would buy the MoC in Region B are still buying the MoC. No one in Region B is buying the Kino release.

And people who live in Region A, want the MoC but are region-locked, and love the movie too much to wait any longer/care about some rumblings on the internet about a breach of contract? And people who live in Region C? I have no idea how many sales Kino stand to gain from their error, but I'm sure it has to be more than zero. People do not all behave according to broad economic predictors. Hell, even Criterion has sold more than zero copies of Border Radio.

[Brian C]

And people who live in Region C? I have no idea how many sales Kino stand to gain from their error, but I'm sure it has to be more than zero.

Come on, though. The real question isn't "is the number more than 0?" The real question is "is the number high enough to make up for terrible PR and possible reparations to MoC?"

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have a really hard time believing that Kino's seeing a serious benefit to this. In all likelihood, the number of people outraged at Kino is greater than the number of non-region A folks who are buying the discs. This is Metropolis, after all - a huge deal in the cinephile world but a complete non-event in the home video world at large.

[pro-bassoonist]

There are some remarkably vile statements in this thread.

And some remarkably sweeping, disingenuous and hyperbolic ones in your post, starting with the adjective "vile". Nothing whatever has been posted in these threads that comes close to meriting the description "repulsive or disgusting to the senses or feelings", unless you're such a shrinking violet that you really shouldn't venture online at all.

Boycotting? Fine, people have the right to boycott anything they wish to boycott. But -- fact of the matter is that KINO have responded to the criticism, offering what I believe to be an honest explanation, and I personally have not seen any 'logical' evidence proving that what took place was indeed well planned. Mistakes happen, and at a lot bigger than KINO companies.

I believe all the calls for a boycott predated Kino's response, and did so by several hours. The overwhelming assumption before then, based on the facts on the ground, was that Kino had deliberately and cynically screwed MoC - which many people still do believe, although I agree that the "accident" hypothesis has some merit. But it's still a hypothesis, unless you're in the habit of automatically believing everything a company puts out in a hurry when trying to stave off a potential PR catastrophe.

You then cited numerous other examples of mistakes happening - which is all well and good, but you disingenuously sideline the real issue which people are complaining about, and that is that MoC did not want to region-code their release. In the past, they've reluctantly done so at the request of the primary rightsholder, which is hard to argue against, but what was different about this case was that they did so at the request of a rival distributor in another territory.

And that's why people are royally pissed off with Kino.

And I'd argue that if you initiate a contractual agreement to force another distributor to region-lock, you should be pretty damn meticulous about fulfilling that agreement to the letter when it comes to executing its terms yourself.

Mistakes happen, as we all know - not least at pressing plants. But it would have been nice if Kino had pre-emptively issued a statement and an apology (perhaps privately to MoC) in advance of final copies being circulated - it wouldn't have helped much in the long term, but it would have shown goodwill, and might have made people more inclined to believe that it was an honest mistake from the start.

Michael,

I am surprised to see you respond as you did as I typically find you to be a very balanced and well informed poster.

1. I perceive comments such as Do I have to 'like' Kino first in order to throw s**t on them? to be vile.

2. Assumptions and facts are two very different things. And thus far there have been absolutely no facts proving that what took place was well planned by KINO.

3. MOC - I didn't sideline the real issue. On the contrary, I have made it perfectly clear in my posts that what took place is very unfortunate. What I wanted to point out here is that getting pissed about something without having all the facts and promoting all sorts of extreme reactions is to say the least quite immature.

4. Yes, you could argue quite successfully that when you initiate a contractual agreement you should make sure that there are no issues. But mistakes happen all the time. I could also argue that when charging premium prices for your Blu-ray releases you should make sure that nothing goes out of the pressing facility and gets into the retail system with serious mastering defects.

5. Your last comment also insinuates that KINO knew about the region coding fiasco yet they sent the Region-Free screeners to reviewers. What I've learned from my communication with different parties during the last 48 hours is that some key people at KINO did not know that the release was Region-Free before screeners were sent out. So how could they have issued an apology to MOC, as you suggest, without knowing what happened in the pressing plant.

Anyway, Michael. I am not a 'shrinking violet', and all that I wanted to do is encourage people to truly think about what took place before damning a company that is trying very hard to build a new image and please us, the film aficionados. Things in this business are rarely black and white; there is plenty of gray, especially when it comes to licensing and pressing discs, which is why it is always best to try to be as informed as possible and evaluate situations such as this one from a variety of different angles.

Have a well balanced opinion, not an extreme one.

Pro-B

[domino harvey]

I refuse to take a side until someone makes a Facebook page either for or against it

[matrixschmatrix]

So wait... this is bad for Kino because it's bad PR (among this tiny little forum), which hurts sales (among buyers in this tiny little forum), so we should let it go because they've already been hurt? That's... a little circular, is it not?

The MoC people were already a little annoyed at Kino's 'region free at our convenience, region locked when it will hurt us stance' before this debacle. Regardless of whether this was just an accident or not, it's pretty disgusting that Kino exercises closer quality control over the region locking on Masters of Cinema's discs than they do on their own.

This is Metropolis, after all - a huge deal in the cinephile world but a complete non-event in the home video world at large.

Actually, the MoC combo set is the 299th best seller on amazon.uk, and has been in the top few hundred pretty consistently for a while. For comparison's sake, the Salt blu-ray is #316- anything in the top 500 or so means it's selling in pretty high volume.

It's not exactly Toy Story, but for a silent movie, that's fucking phenomenal.

(I realize this doesn't actually relate much to the debate, but I'm pretty excited to think that this is a release that is actually leaking to the outside world- those are the kind of numbers that get things stocked in Blockbuster and Red Box, here.)

[captveg]

Regardless of whether this was just an accident or not, it's pretty disgusting that Kino exercises closer quality control over the region locking on Masters of Cinema's discs than they do on their own.

I fail to see what's disgusting about it.

Business execs reached an agreement based on territorial sales concerns.

Tech people made a mistake in regards to authoring the disc.

These two groups of people probably don't know each other from Adam.

Not an apt comparison whatsoever.

I've been involved in QC-ing thousands of discs and I've never once met anyone involved with contractual agreements in regards to disc content and regional coding. These paths simply do not cross.

If anything, in this one case, Kino's QC failed, MoC's QC didn't. Once day it may be the opposite. EVERY company has had QC failures, without exception. It happens. See: Saving Private Ryan BD. Or The Matrix Revolutions BD. Or the Back to the Future DVD. On and on and on.

And people who live in Region A, want the MoC but are region-locked, and love the movie too much to wait any longer/care about some rumblings on the internet about a breach of contract? And people who live in Region C?

Go get an all region player. These people are spending thousands of dollars on Blu-ray collections. If they care that much about it they can afford the Momitsu, then they can buy MoC releases to their heart's content.

[MichaelB]

5. Your last comment also insinuates that KINO knew about the region coding fiasco yet they sent the Region-Free screeners to reviewers.

I have insinuated no such thing. My last comment was actually referring to final production copies entering the retail supply chain - I deliberately haven't raised the issue of screeners because it's completely irrelevant to this particular aspect of the discussion, and indeed can be actively unhelpful because screeners often differ significantly from the final retail version, largely because they often have to be sent out before the final disc specs are locked down.

[pro-bassoonist]

I have insinuated no such thing. My last comment was actually referring to final production copies entering the retail supply chain - I deliberately haven't raised the issue of screeners because it's completely irrelevant to this particular aspect of the discussion, and indeed can be actively unhelpful because screeners often differ significantly from the final retail version, largely because they often have to be sent out before the final disc specs are locked down.

Unlike UK and French independent distributors, U.S. independent distributors send final production copies to reviewers to cover, not unfinished discs, or 'screeners' as they are referred to in the UK.

Pro-B

[Mozart]

Having been in the DVD/BD quality control business for 6+ years, my guess (and it is just a guess) is that the memo simply wasn't communicated clearly to the authoring facility and QC company that the disc needed to be region locked. It's a simple thing to do - just click some buttons on the authoring program - but is also something easily forgotten if it's not standard procedure (which for Kino, it isn't).

As far as the Region A logo not being on the packaging - disc authoring and packaging design in most companies are two completely different paths that rarely communicate with each other well. The packaging people had never needed to put a Region logo on their Blu-rays so far, so why would they need to now? That's exactly what I would be thinking if I was designing something to which I never got clear communication on for months...

As for the conspiracy theories... you guys are hilarious. No one in the industry thinks like this. The execs at Kino don't want to risk pissing people off to get a few piddly sales. Those that prepped the transfer only care about that, not the authoring. The people that authored the disc have just as much a chance to not give a crap about silent films as any average Joe Public out there - it's a job. QC people are there to QC, and most in that industry are terribly ignorant of film history, especially silent cinema. Trust me, I'm the exception, not the rule.

Personally, as a US resident I rarely import, so it makes no difference to me. And Kino has been doing good work with Blu-ray so far. I'm willing to give them a pass on a QC error oversight (especially since in my case it doesn't effect me in the slightest).

All nice information, but nobody blames the people at Kino in the QC or authoring department.
You are missing the point here.

Kino execs make an agreement with MoC. None of these execs are authoring the disc.

ah, you are getting closer!

I don't think people here understand how the home video industry works.

Independently of the fact, if I understand the home video industry, I know how the world works:

If I harm someone (like Kino did to MoC and all the other distributors of Metropolis), I will have to either compensate for that harm or restore the condition before harming.

Neither of them have happened here.

[fiddlesticks]

I don't think people here understand how the home video industry works. Kino execs make an agreement with MoC. None of these execs are authoring the disc.

Those authoring the discs probably have never met the Kino execs. They probably got the authoring work via a manager within Kino, whose job may or not be to convey a unique matter like region coding for this title to the authoring facility. Then, whether or not the authoring facility does their own internal QC or has someone do 3rd party QC, they also missed the issue or they were not made aware that the disc needed to be region coded.

This crap happens ALL THE TIME is the home video authoring/QC world. There are many, many links in the chain, and all those links are people doing their jobs, and if at one phase someone doesn't do their job - such as the execs telling the manager that this one title needs to be region coded, or the manager not informing the authoring facility, or someone at the authoring facility not marking "region A" on the disc layout paperwork, or the QC people not double-checking the region coding - then things get released with missed issues.

There's no vast conspiracy. There's no intent to harm. This is quite literally an oversight. Trust me - you wouldn't believe what major problems occur throughout the disc authoring and QC world. I have literally hundreds of stories I am unable to share due to NDAs. And this region coding issue is not even in the Top 10.

No, there was an honest mistake here, most likely due to a lack of clear communication since the region coding was against the standard operating procedure.

If there truly is this much incompetence, even gross negligence, to be found in every nook and cranny of the industry, it does not make me feel any better.

[Alphonse Doinel]

Don't worry guys, I've got people on it...

[captveg]

If I harm someone (like Kino did to MoC and all the other distributors of Metropolis), I will have to either compensate for that harm or restore the condition before harming.

Neither of them have happened here.

To your knowledge. And I don't know why you'd ever expect to be privy to such compensation since you are not the offended party.

If there truly is this much incompetence, even gross negligence, to be found in every nook and cranny of the industry, it does not make me feel any better.

Let's just say that certain suits say "do this unreasonable thing" and authoring has to do their best to comply on relatively small budgets. There's a reason such "innovations" as BD-Live work about 1/10th as good as your phone's browser, to state one example.

[Jarpie]

captveg, it's actually very easy to check region coding using computer with bluray-drive; blu-ray playing software have information window which shows the region code(s) of the disc.

I work in the big company and I know how well or poorly communication can work between different departments but it's a bit too 'convenient' to forget to send a memo that this disc should be region coded since it's not their usual method of operating.

[tenia]

... the idea that Kino conspired to slip one past MoC is ridiculous. Outright absurd. Completely against any sense of reality. No one is gonna say to themselves "Let's not keep our agreement and see how that plays out. Hey, within a week of it coming out we may cost the company $100,000s, might have to fire half of our staff, and possibly damage the image of the company beyond repair, but it may just be worth it to sell three copies in Italy."

They can't do anything, that's my point.

They
Just
Didn't
Honored
Their
Agreement
While
MoC
Did.

It was written : "We, MoC, want our release to be Region Free. But, as you asked us, we agree to do ours Region B locked and you agree to do yours Region A locked".

I think some people in the USA are pissed to see that, not only the MoC is now locked thanks to Kino, but than now, Kino didn't even locked their release. Of course it can be a mistake. Of course they may have never planned it this way.

But now, people in Region A who wanted to support MoC release won't be able to. And will be compelled to buy either the $30 Kino edition, or to put $150 in a Region Free player, while they could have use these $150 to buy a lot of other movies, and support a lot of editors (like Oscilloscope, which I lately discovered).

It's not, and that's where I think you're completely wrong and cynical beyond any measure, for Kino to buy 3 copies in France and 5 in Germany.

But now, the Region A people who don't have a region free player have to stick with the Kino.

They just kept their own market under control with the deal. MoC allowed them, by honoring the deal, to do that. But Kino, by making this mistake, screwed MoC by making possible for MoC market to buy the Kino release. Kino is fine, they can sell in all the market, and kept theirs under control. MoC is limited to Region B, when they wanted to be Region Free.

They did a mistake big enough to justify a honorable recall. But of course they can't, because it's too expensive. Go figure out what they can do to make it even. And basically, what was supposed to be an exception in Kino Region Free BR is just another Region Free BR. But, as said above, manicsounds saw it coming.

[MichaelB]

If there truly is this much incompetence, even gross negligence, to be found in every nook and cranny of the industry, it does not make me feel any better.

Come on, this is silly. As Captveg describes from a position of considerable authority, and I can endorse from the perspective of someone who's been involved in proofreading checkdiscs and greenlighting final print runs, it's incredibly easy to flick the wrong electronic switch and mess up the region coding status, and it's hardly "gross negligence" when it happens. Not least because 99.9% of purchasers will neither notice nor care - unless the region status is accidentally switched to Region C when the disc is intended for Region A, but in those situations a repressing is clearly called for.

Look at it logically. What has actually changed here compared with what would have happened if the contract had been followed to the letter? Kino may have enlarged its market, inadvertently or otherwise, but who in Region B-land is going to favour its disc over MoC's superior and cheaper alternative? Especially when this involves more effort, and therefore research, which will inevitably turn up the fact that MoC is superior and cheaper. (Obviously, Region C is an issue too, but I have no idea whether this amounts to any significant extra business as a general rule).

But regardless of Region C, it would be hard to argue that MoC has lost any actual business over this - in fact, they may well benefit from all the extra publicity that there's a better edition out in the UK. Any restrictions on the size of MoC's market were applied at the time the contract was drawn up, not as a result of this incident.

[peerpee]

Again, Kino is gaining NO SALES due to not region coding.

Nonsense.

it would be hard to argue that MoC has lost any actual business over this

Let's discuss the elephant in the room, then.

Let's not pretend that MoC (and the BFI, Kino, etc) don't have global purchasers. Global purchasers who are fans of these respective labels and who perfectly legally purchase our products through a third-party. MoC don't deny they exist, and we don't ignore them.

Just as British people and people from all around the world have been legally purchasing Kino's BATTLESHIP POTEMKIN and THE GENERAL Blu-rays (both region-free) from amazon.com.

This shambolic situation we now find ourselves in with METROPOLIS is what we were trying to avoid all along, and it has only hardened our belief that region-encoding is unfair, unrealistic, misguidedly used, and damaging to the industry on a global level.

If Kino had agreed to region-free (like all their other Blu-rays, and like BATTLESHIP POTEMKIN, which they also licenced from Transit) then everything would be rosy.

We were certainly unhappy with Kino hypocritically stipulating region-encoding in the first place (when all their other Blu-rays are region-free), but for them to then "forget" to encode theirs, releasing tens of thousands into the world with no recall, and hobbling the encoding of ours in the process is shocking.

From our perspective, it's such a catastrophic error, that: a weak apology; promises of region encoding of future pressings (in 2013?); and flippant remarks about "British folk won't be wanting it anyway"; fail to understand the gravity of releasing tens of thousands of region-free discs into the global marketplace.

[fiddlesticks]

it's incredibly easy to flick the wrong electronic switch and mess up the region coding status, and it's hardly "gross negligence" when it happens.

I was thinking more of captveg's reports of the utter failure of communications between the business and production ends. To choose one example:

This crap happens ALL THE TIME is the home video authoring/QC world. There are many, many links in the chain, and all those links are people doing their jobs, and if at one phase someone doesn't do their job - such as the execs telling the manager that this one title needs to be region coded, or the manager not informing the authoring facility, or someone at the authoring facility not marking "region A" on the disc layout paperwork, or the QC people not double-checking the region coding - then things get released with missed issues.

I used to work for a company whose whole product was measured by service level, and involved an unbelievably complex string of connections to go exactly right. Our chief competitor in this business used to advertise their 98% service level. We chose to view that as a 2% failure rate, and ponder such a failure rate as applied to, for example, passenger airlines. In our company, an executive or manager failing to pass along a key contract provision to those responsible for carrying it out wouldn't just be grossly negligent, it would be completely unthinkable, and certainly does not happen "ALL THE TIME."

[MichaelB]

Peerpee, I completely agree with pretty much everything you say (as I suspect you know) - my point was that there's no difference to the size of MoC's market as a result of what's happened. You were hobbled at the time of making the agreement with Kino, and what's happened since hasn't really affected that - and that's the real scandal.

[zedz]

Agreed. As I noted in the other thread, Kino's sudden change in region coding 'policy' for this release was all about protecting the US market for themselves, not about getting into other markets (that's just the cream). It seems pretty disingenuous or obtuse to insist that because they won't be selling many copies overseas (asserted on no particular evidence) then they have no motive to screw MoC. And that's why it's very hard for me to believe the 'string of accidents' theory when the entire fact of region coding was implemented at Kino's insistence. Given that background, this should have been the first thing they checked.

[adamhopelies]

Again, Kino is gaining NO SALES due to not region coding. Those who would buy the Kino in Region A are still buying the Kino. Those who would buy the MoC in Region B are still buying the MoC. No one in Region B is buying the Kino release. Why would they? In fact, for Kino, this can only make them lose money. Bad PR is always bad for the bottom line in this industry.

Sorry, but you have exactly zero understanding of this business. You can cry foul all you want, but it won't change what actually happened here. A mistake, plain and simple. And a costly one that will cause someone to get fired, more than likely. Should we hope for a public flogging as well?

I was in the Cinema Store in London yesterday afternoon, and they had copies of the Kino release with a big "Region Free" sticker on it. They sold at least one copy in front of me (at £34.99!!) in the 20 minutes that I was in the shop.

So yeah, people over here are buying it; presumably not very bright people, but still, one could argue that the sale that I saw go through was directly affecting the sales of MoC's edition.

[Alphonse Doinel]

I guess they 'accidentally' put that sticker on it too.

[Tommaso]

The thing with the sticker now makes this whole story REALLY appalling. Same for those shops that imported it, of course.

[Peacock]

I really doubt the sticker was put their by Kino, that would pretty much be fraud right?
If this shop imports US disks, no doubt they have boxes of region free stickers which they place on such releases.
I kinda wish dvdbeaver et co would change their reviews to say the Kino is region A, not sure if it will happen though

[Mozart]

Again, Kino is gaining NO SALES due to not region coding.

Absolutely wrong.
Europeans (non-UK) who are interested in that film and are not 100% informed (unlikethe people here on that forum), import it and the first place they are going to is Amazon.com.