8 / BD 16 Metropolis

[rsweeney]

Hello all.

This is Robert Sweeney from Kino Lorber. I work in the DVD/Blu-Ray Production Department here. Sorry I didn't jump into this thread earlier, but I just saw it now. First: all future pressings of METROPOLIS will be region locked. When we realized our error, we halted production and added it. The fact that the initial discs went out as region free was a result of a miscommunication on our end, and we will not deny that this was a major mistake on our part.

It was not a pre-conceived plan, and I hope you will believe me. We honestly feel terrible about this. I am as big a fan of MOC's work as any (I'm a proud owner of the SUNRISE blu-ray), and hope this does not affect our relationship in the future. As other commenters have noted, I don't see why many Region 2 consumers would buy our disc when MOC's great release could be bought locally, and likely for cheaper.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope you won't hold this error against us in the future.

Best,
Rob

[Gregory]

The main thing I hold against Kino is their pushing MoC to region-lock their release of Metropolis in the first place.* I don't hold this policy against Mr. Sweeney personally, but saying he's a fan of MoC doesn't mean much when Kino has prevented the vast majority of Blu-ray buyers who aren't region free from being able to choose the MoC release.
*Allegedly, but this explanation makes sense, following what our member merch says in this discussion and knowing about MoC's general opposition to region-locking.

[matrixschmatrix]

If this has any effect, I hope it's to push Kino into not pushing labels from smaller markets to region lock in the future. Of course, going by MichaelB says, their pushing probably won't have much effect one way or the other.

[RobertB]

I'm an owner of three Kino blu-rays. And I have been very happy to buy them. This wouldn't be possible with region locking. I think it's in the interest of all parties to remove region locks. Kino should prob demand that MoC don't sell directly to US customers, but no more barriers than that. 99% of customers will still go for the local product, and if they aren't its a sign that the product isn't as good as it should be. But in the long run, getting rid of the habit of region locking as a default procedure should benefit all small labels. I think you are taking the wrong action. Making it harder to buy legitimate products because you live in the wrong country sounds unwise when piracy is a much bigger threat.

[WorstFella]

all future pressings of METROPOLIS will be region locked. When we realized our error, we halted production and added it. The fact that the initial discs went out as region free was a result of a miscommunication on our end, and we will not deny that this was a major mistake on our part.

What about the required Region 1 logo on the sleeve mentioned by peerpee earlier?

[McCrutchy]

First: all future pressings of METROPOLIS will be region locked. When we realized our error, we halted production and added it. The fact that the initial discs went out as region free was a result of a miscommunication on our end, and we will not deny that this was a major mistake on our part.

Hi Rob,

I'm curious, do you know about how many discs were affected? Also, has the cover art been modified with a Region A symbol to identify the properly locked discs?

[felipe]

I'm an owner of three Kino blu-rays. And I have been very happy to buy them. This wouldn't be possible with region locking. I think it's in the interest of all parties to remove region locks. Kino should prob demand that MoC don't sell directly to US customers, but no more barriers than that. 99% of customers will still go for the local product, and if they aren't its a sign that the product isn't as good as it should be. But in the long run, getting rid of the habit of region locking as a default procedure should benefit all small labels. I think you are taking the wrong action. Making it harder to buy legitimate products because you live in the wrong country sounds unwise when piracy is a much bigger threat.

Agreed.

[dad1153]

Beaver.

[peerpee]

This is not a situation that affects only MoC. It directly affects all other METROPOLIS licencees around the world. The whole of Europe, Asia, everywhere.

I don't see why many Region 2 consumers would buy our disc when MoC's great release could be bought locally, and likely for cheaper.

That's not really the whole story though is it? You're failing to consider all the other ramifications of your company's error.

re: "initial discs went out as region free". I think you need to be clear about what figures we're talking about here. You make it sound like a box of 25 was affected. I estimate we're talking about tens of thousands of these "initial discs". An entire first pressing of Blu-rays for your largest ever title. It's a pretty huge number of incorrectly encoded, illegal discs.

Future Kino pressings may eventually be region-encoded but future pressings might not be needed for years -- tens of thousands of horses have bolted.

The error is not satisfactorily rectified by merely assuring that future represses are properly encoded.

[kndy]

The main thing I hold against Kino is their pushing MoC to region-lock their release of Metropolis in the first place.* I don't hold this policy against Mr. Sweeney personally, but saying he's a fan of MoC doesn't mean much when Kino has prevented the vast majority of Blu-ray buyers who aren't region free from being able to choose the MoC release.
*Allegedly, but this explanation makes sense, following what our member merch says in this discussion and knowing about MoC's general opposition to region-locking.

Not to play Devil's advocate but nearly ever recent MoC Blu-ray release as of late have been region locked: "M", "Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?", "Burmese Harp", "Vengeance is Mine", "Make Way for Tomorrow","Profound Desires of the Gods", "La Planète sauvage". I'm not surprised that KINO requested "Metropolis" to region-lock their release, obviously seeing as the other titles have been region-locked, others have requested MoC to do the same (or they did it out of courtesy).

[tenia]

As other commenters have noted, I don't see why many Region 2 consumers would buy our disc when MOC's great release could be bought locally, and likely for cheaper.

The problem is not Kino being region free. The problem is now MoC being region locked. I don't think many people in Z2 / Region B would have, as you said, bought the much more expensive Kino. But I do think that a lot of Region A / Z1 people would have bought the much cheaper MoC.

And here, for me, lies all the problem. And this is a problem, as Nick said, that concerns a whole first pressing. Which should be at least partially recalled, or something like that.

Your errore will simply ruin the launch of the edition. Both yours for the controversy, and MoC on Region A territory. You simply made them go on a way limitating them, and then not honor your part of the deal, revealating it a week before the release.

As far as the technical aspect of your discs are concerned, you did pretty great so far on BR. But here, you simply lurked people in a deal that you didn't honored.

[stereo]

It's just sad really. While I own multiple region free DVD players, I do not own a code free blu-ray player and quite frankly the prices (and variable qualities as often reported in this forum) on these players are still too outlandish to invest in. I would have invested in a second in the MoC Metropolis, but will now most likely buy the Kino version -- not because I like Kino; I think they are a horrible label in terms of quality with very few exceptions (only slightly above ye olde New Yorker and and Facets labels). Still, I want this title on blu-ray, but it is not worth an extra 3-400 dollars of my money. So as a DVD collector, the title is too important to boycott, but the alternative is too expensive to invest in. While I would love to give MoC my money, I won't this time because Kino cornered the U.S. market. Good job Kino; you screwed us. You screwed MoC. You also screwed the world market as Peerpee notes. It appears they missed the message of Metropolis after all -- you know, the bit about Moloch and the heart as the mediator, etc... I agree that the best solution at this point would be for MoC to re-press the blu as region free. I would double-dip if that happened. Still, it might be simply too expensive for them to do this.

[MichaelB]

I agree that the best solution at this point would be for MoC to re-press the blu as region free. I would double-dip if that happened. Still, it might be simply too expensive for them to do this.

Recalling and repressing the existing run would be insane, not least because the discs aren't defective in any way - it's just that they won't play on certain players for reasons that have been deliberately engineered at the authoring stage.

But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the second print run (assuming it sells enough to justify one) quietly drops the region coding - but that could be months or years away, by which time most fans in Region A will have bitten the bullet and gone for the Kino.

[reaky]

We're expected to believe that pressing the disc as region-free AND omitting any reference to a region coding on the packaging was a mistake? Either Kino have one single employee who both presses the discs and produces the cover art (quite a lot of responsibility for a patent idiot), or this is TWO coincidental "mistakes" which, happily for Kino, royally screw MoC.

It beggars belief that one company operating in the tiny market of arthouse/silent blu-ray production could be so underhand with another.

[kndy]

We're expected to believe that pressing the disc as region-free AND omitting any reference to a region coding on the packaging was a mistake? Either Kino have one single employee who both presses the discs and produces the cover art (quite a lot of responsibility for a patent idiot), or this is TWO coincidental "mistakes" which, happily for Kino, royally screw MoC.

It beggars belief that one company operating in the tiny market of arthouse/silent blu-ray production could be so underhand with another.

You may not believe it but a lot of these companies have trimmed their staff and as you have read lately, even BFI will be doing it as well.

Here's the thing, these last two months alone, I have seen criticism on both KINO (for Metropolis), Studio Canal (Lionsgate) and Flicker Alley (for their recent Chaplin release), it's understandable why you guys are upset but some of you are blowing this up much bigger than it needs to be. KINO has addressed the problem, they're fixing it.

The problem many of you have is region blocking. This has been going on for a long time and it's not going to stop.

Did you guys start blasting Criterion because MoC region-blocked "M"? I know on some forums some people have but really, very few people criticize Criterion Collection releases. But if it's from another company, it's open season.

The fact is region-blocking is not going to end anytime soon. And yes, even the smaller companies, may it be MoC, KINO, Flicker Alley, Oscilloscope Laboratories and other companies are going to have mistakes. We are seeing it more frequently now (last argument was Studio Canals typographic errors which they ended up fixing). In this case, KINO admitted their mistake, they fixed it. Yeah, It was an unfortunate incident, they admitted it.

But in terms of region-blocking, it's going to continue. Is there a quick solution? Probably not. Even when people praised Japan and US sharing the same region for Blu-ray and people were happy that there would be no region blocking, looking how things are now. It's a still a big mess and people have now went from complaining about region-blocking to now complaining about the inflated Japanese prices and Japanese companies worrying about reverse importation.

But really what it comes down to...and this is probably the underlying truth is that many people are looking at Masters of Cinema as the true rival to Criterion Collection and rightfully so. Some believe the MoC quality of their releases are superior to Criterion and wish the company existed in the US for distribution. The fact is that for nearly two decades, no on has challenged the quality of The Criterion Collection and now because we many people outside of the UK have had a taste of the quality from Eureka!/MoC via their region-free releases and now they want more.

For the "Metropolis" release, Masters of Cinema has went all out...steelbook, posters, t-shirts, limited edition release, more content in their release and this just not limited to "Metropolis", this goes for a lot of their releases. Consumers all over the world have seen the quality from MoC and they love it (and some of you even proclaiming MoC over Criterion releases) but the only thing stopping consumers outside of the UK and all over the world is the "region-blocking".

But once again...region-blocking is not going to end anytime soon. Frustrating as it is, the reality is that it's not going to stop anytime soon.

[Tribe]

The problem many of you have is region blocking. This has been going on for a long time and it's not going to stop.

Did you guys start blasting Criterion because MoC region-blocked "M"? I know on some forums some people have but really, very few people criticize Criterion Collection releases. But if it's from another company, it's open season.

There were several years between the Criterion release and the MOC release. So, regardless the merits of the dispute, the comparison is mixing apples with oranges. I happen to be in the camp of those that believe that, if anything, Kino was merely unwittingly negligent. Having said that, Criterion, like MOC, has a degree of credibility that would take Kino many years to reach the level of.

[McCrutchy]

The problem many of you have is region blocking. This has been going on for a long time and it's not going to stop.

Did you guys start blasting Criterion because MoC region-blocked "M"? I know on some forums some people have but really, very few people criticize Criterion Collection releases. But if it's from another company, it's open season.

There were several years between the Criterion release and the MOC release. So, regardless the merits of the dispute, the comparison is mixing apples with oranges. I happen to be in the camp of those that believe that, if anything, Kino was merely unwittingly negligent. Having said that, Criterion, like MOC, has a degree of credibility that would take Kino many years to reach the level of.

Tribe, I believe kndy is referring to the respective Criterion Region 'A' BD and MoC Region 'B' BD of M, both of which came out months apart in 2010.

kndy, not to disagree with you, but this issue is not about regional encoding. Everyone knew for many months that the plan was for Kino's BD to be Region 'A' LOCKED and for MoC's BD to be Region 'B' LOCKED. The problem at hand is that Kino and MoC had an agreement--at Kino's request--which Kino has now violated.

Taking into account the lack of a region symbol on the packaging,the fact that checkdiscs exist for a reason, and that Metropolis was perhaps Kino's most important BD yet, it seems like quite an unbelievable coincidence that an entire pressing lacks proper regional encoding. I believe this has only happened once or twice before in Blu-ray history, and always in the opposite fashion, where an announced region-free release is accidentally locked.

[MichaelB]

I believe this has only happened once or twice before in Blu-ray history, and always in the opposite fashion, where an announced region-free release is accidentally locked.

It's happened a lot more often than that, and in both directions. Sometimes it's down to a production error, sometimes due to poor communication between the producer and the marketing team, sometimes because of a last-minute contractual niggle, and sometimes because the checkdisc was region-free and the final version region-locked, or indeed vice versa.

The only significant difference here is that Kino specifically promised another distributor that they'd region-lock.

Having said that, Criterion, like MOC, has a degree of credibility that would take Kino many years to reach the level of.

Actually, Kino's Blu-ray releases have been sensationally good - a really significant improvement on a typical Kino DVD. So they certainly have credibility for me in that marketplace - they're one of the better Blu-ray labels.

[Ashirg]

For what it's worth, I placed an order for MoC's release of Metropolis on Blu-ray yesterday after reading this post and watching Metropolis Refound documentary on TCM. I have region-free Malata blu-ray player, but this is my first purchase of a region-locked non-US release.

[Florinaldo]

Did you guys start blasting Criterion because MoC region-blocked "M"? I know on some forums some people have but really, very few people criticize Criterion Collection releases. But if it's from another company, it's open season.

Perhaps Criterion would have been the object of similar criticism if it had suddenly released its BD of M as a region-free disc after agreeing with MoC to have it region-locked. As things stand now, the MoC BD of M is Region B and Criterion's is Region A. So there's no relevant equivalence to be made with the Metropolis BD situation.

And anyway, if you look through the threads, you will find several examples of Criterion being criticized and even blasted (fairly or unfairly) for the choices they made in some of their editions (like The Last Emperor).

In all of this Metropolis mess there are several facts most of us can't verify. For example, what was the specific nature of the agreement between Kino and MoC; a simple exchange of letters or e-mails, or a truly enforceable contract? And what was the exact wording? Also, we can't truly check Kino's story that this was simply an authoring blunder, compounded by a negligence on the packaging that omitted mention of a region-lock, making it look as a planned occurrence. Of course mistakes do happen and I have a few DVDs that are region-locked without there being any mention on the package. It may seem far-fetched to explain solely by coincidence the fact of these two errors happening at the same time in the context of two competing editions coming out concurrently, but who knows.

[Tribe]

Having said that, Criterion, like MOC, has a degree of credibility that would take Kino many years to reach the level of.

Actually, Kino's Blu-ray releases have been sensationally good - a really significant improvement on a typical Kino DVD. So they certainly have credibility for me in that marketplace - they're one of the better Blu-ray labels.

I don't disagree....but this is a recent development in Kino's history. In fact, what is surprising is that Kino has in fact done such a good job with BluRay releases...did anyone expect that?

[Tommaso]

..but this is a recent development in Kino's history. In fact, what is surprising is that Kino has in fact done such a good job with BluRay releases...did anyone expect that?

I'm still blu-less, but after their good work on most of their silent editions since about 2008, I'm not too surprised. I still abhor their replaced intertitles, but I can't say I wasn't entirely happy with things like the second Griffith box or, even older, their Stroheims. Their "Potemkin" and "Nosferatu" dvds as well as the early Murnau stuff seem to be very fine, too (apart from the replaced titles in the case of Murnau). You might still argue they're overpriced in comparison to what MoC and CC deliver for the same money, but it's no longer like in 2007 when I shuddered at seeing that a film I dearly wanted to see was only available from Kino. I actually look forward to most of their releases nowadays.

[captveg]

Having been in the DVD/BD quality control business for 6+ years, my guess (and it is just a guess) is that the memo simply wasn't communicated clearly to the authoring facility and QC company that the disc needed to be region locked. It's a simple thing to do - just click some buttons on the authoring program - but is also something easily forgotten if it's not standard procedure (which for Kino, it isn't).

As far as the Region A logo not being on the packaging - disc authoring and packaging design in most companies are two completely different paths that rarely communicate with each other well. The packaging people had never needed to put a Region logo on their Blu-rays so far, so why would they need to now? That's exactly what I would be thinking if I was designing something to which I never got clear communication on for months...

As for the conspiracy theories.... you guys are hilarious. No one in the industry thinks like this. The execs at Kino don't want to risk pissing people off to get a few piddly sales. Those that prepped the transfer only care about that, not the authoring. The people that authored the disc have just as much a chance to not give a crap about silent films as any average Joe Public out there - it's a job. QC people are there to QC, and most in that industry are terribly ignorant of film history, especially silent cinema. Trust me, I'm the exception, not the rule.

Personally, as a US resident I rarely import, so it makes no difference to me. And Kino has been doing good work with Blu-ray so far. I'm willing to give them a pass on a QC error oversight (especially since in my case it doesn't effect me in the slightest).

[AtlantaFella]

How about MoC do a limited region-free BD pressing? That seems only fair to me, and I'm sure many of us would be all over it.

[McCrutchy]

I believe this has only happened once or twice before in Blu-ray history, and always in the opposite fashion, where an announced region-free release is accidentally locked.

It's happened a lot more often than that, and in both directions. Sometimes it's down to a production error, sometimes due to poor communication between the producer and the marketing team, sometimes because of a last-minute contractual niggle, and sometimes because the checkdisc was region-free and the final version region-locked, or indeed vice versa.

The only significant difference here is that Kino specifically promised another distributor that they'd region-lock.

Are you saying this happens and it is not disclosed to consumers, then? Because I can only recall one or two memories of hearing that an announced Region-free U.S. BD was in fact locked to Region A, discounting Sony's mis-labeling of the covers of Breaking Bad Seasons 1 and 2.