Kino

[pro-bassoonist]

We may be giving Kino way too much credit for being devious. Don't get me wrong, I agree that MOC has been wronged. But at the same time, I don't think Kino cares enough to have hatched some scheme here...hell, until their BluRay work they have become infamous for their lack of interest in releasing presentable transfers and charging Criterion prices to their customers.

I agree. Kino has never demonstrated any ability to be consistent - deviously or laudably.
There are alternatives to nearly all of their releases, which I will definitely use.

This is a ridiculous statement to say the least. Never? If anything, since KINO entered the Blu-ray scene they have been extremely consistent.

There are some remarkably vile statements in this thread. Boycotting? Fine, people have the right to boycott anything they wish to boycott. But -- fact of the matter is that KINO have responded to the criticism, offering what I believe to be an honest explanation, and I personally have not seen any 'logical' evidence proving that what took place was indeed well planned. Mistakes happen, and at a lot bigger than KINO companies.

I do not want to address the UK companies, but I work with a number of French companies and coding/labeling errors happen all the time. Let me repeat one more time - all the time, and down to the very last week. Contracts and discs are not finalized by the same people. In France, Pathe have a whole stack of discs that are labeled ABC - this means coding info pressed on the cover and the disc art - yet they are Region-B "locked". The official press sheets also indicate ABC status.

Actually, lets go back to the UK distributors -- Icon Home Entertainment's initial pressing of Mel Gibson's Apocalypto was Region-Free. It was repressed and now is Region-B "locked". I still have a disc from the first pressing that is Region-Free. Did not see a lot of people boycotting their release.

Back to France -- Fox Pathe Europa's first pressing of Nid de guêpes was ABC. Now the disc is Region-B "locked".

Bottom line is this -- It is beyond unfortunate that MOC are in such an unfavorable position at the moment. These are very difficult times for a lot of small distributors, and every single sale counts. What is really sad is that MOC are arguably the best amongst the small distributors in the UK, as absolutely no one puts as much care in catalog releases as they do yet this fiasco (supposedly) affects them; but look at the situation from a different angle; what would KINO gain if they left their release ABC as some people speculate. The answer is nothing. Anyway you look at it there is more to lose from such a 'move' than there is to gain. Plain and simple.

Really, the extreme reactions in this thread are beyond ridiculous, and sad. Or so I believe, as I always like to give people a second chance to prove themselves. Mistakes happen, and KINO are most definitely not the evil party some people here are hell bent to prove they are.

Have a great weekend.

Pro-B

[Dr. Mabuse]

what would KINO gain if they left their release ABC as some people speculate. The answer is nothing. Anyway you look at it there is more to lose from such a 'move' than there is to gain. Plain and simple.

Kino have by not adhering to the contract stipulation, increased their market potential by more than 100%.

[pro-bassoonist]

Kino have by not adhering to the contract stipulation, increased their market potential by more than 100%.

On the contrary.

1. Anyone who understands what the market for Metropolis on Blu-ray is should be able to quickly determine that a fiasco such as the one KINO are currently facing could only damage their reputation. There is absolutely nothing to gain here, only plenty to lose as far as long term market positioning is concerned. People who tend to import also happen to visit numerous forums where 'import' releases are discussed, and their reactions thus far prove what I described earlier, not what you are claiming.

2. Generally speaking, people who tend to import also happen to be good researchers. A Region-Free status alone does not automatically guarantee better sales - especially when it comes to classic titles where proper treatment is key. This is why MOC are one of the best UK distributors - because the amount of care they put into catalog releases is unmatched in the UK - not because they lock or keep their releases Region-Free.

Pro-B

[perkizitore]

Why on earth would they do that? No one in Region B will buy their disc, they are just making people angry and losing customers that were still willing to buy their mediocre release...

[MichaelB]

There are some remarkably vile statements in this thread.

And some remarkably sweeping, disingenuous and hyperbolic ones in your post, starting with the adjective "vile". Nothing whatever has been posted in these threads that comes close to meriting the description "repulsive or disgusting to the senses or feelings", unless you're such a shrinking violet that you really shouldn't venture online at all.

Boycotting? Fine, people have the right to boycott anything they wish to boycott. But -- fact of the matter is that KINO have responded to the criticism, offering what I believe to be an honest explanation, and I personally have not seen any 'logical' evidence proving that what took place was indeed well planned. Mistakes happen, and at a lot bigger than KINO companies.

I believe all the calls for a boycott predated Kino's response, and did so by several hours. The overwhelming assumption before then, based on the facts on the ground, was that Kino had deliberately and cynically screwed MoC - which many people still do believe, although I agree that the "accident" hypothesis has some merit. But it's still a hypothesis, unless you're in the habit of automatically believing everything a company puts out in a hurry when trying to stave off a potential PR catastrophe.

You then cited numerous other examples of mistakes happening - which is all well and good, but you disingenuously sideline the real issue which people are complaining about, and that is that MoC did not want to region-code their release. In the past, they've reluctantly done so at the request of the primary rightsholder, which is hard to argue against, but what was different about this case was that they did so at the request of a rival distributor in another territory.

And that's why people are royally pissed off with Kino.

And I'd argue that if you initiate a contractual agreement to force another distributor to region-lock, you should be pretty damn meticulous about fulfilling that agreement to the letter when it comes to executing its terms yourself.

Mistakes happen, as we all know - not least at pressing plants. But it would have been nice if Kino had pre-emptively issued a statement and an apology (perhaps privately to MoC) in advance of final copies being circulated - it wouldn't have helped much in the long term, but it would have shown goodwill, and might have made people more inclined to believe that it was an honest mistake from the start.

[Tommaso]

Let's not struggle about words. 'Vile' or not, many posts failed to acknowledge that Kino made a huge step forward in the last few years, releasing some very fine dvds of silent films with close to zero market potential. Do people really want to boycott a company that releases things like the two Talmadge sisters discs, for instance?

MoC did not want to region-code their release. In the past, they've reluctantly done so at the request of the primary rightsholder, which is hard to argue against, but what was different about this case was that they did so at the request of a rival distributor in another territory.

And that's why people are royally pissed off with Kino.

Indeed. But what I do not understand is why MoC agreed to this contract in the first place, if it was really only Kino's proposal and not FWMS/Transit's. Doing similar agreements with Criterion makes sense to me, because the two labels are often collaborating and MoC uses the same master as Criterion does. But MoC thinking about taking over Kino masters? Unlikely. Not competing with a rival company out of sheer goodness of heart? Even less so.

[doc mccoy]

Let's not struggle about words. 'Vile' or not, many posts failed to acknowledge that Kino made a huge step forward in the last few years, releasing some very fine dvds of silent films with close to zero market potential. Do people really want to boycott a company that releases things like the two Talmadge sisters discs, for instance?

MoC did not want to region-code their release. In the past, they've reluctantly done so at the request of the primary rightsholder, which is hard to argue against, but what was different about this case was that they did so at the request of a rival distributor in another territory.

And that's why people are royally pissed off with Kino.

Indeed. But what I do not understand is why MoC agreed to this contract in the first place, if it was really only Kino's proposal and not FWMS/Transit's. Doing similar agreements with Criterion makes sense to me, because the two labels are often collaborating and MoC uses the same master as Criterion does. But MoC thinking about taking over Kino masters? Unlikely. Not competing with a rival company out of sheer goodness of heart? Even less so.

But that detracts from the fact that point that MoC and Kino made the agreement, MoC kept their side, while Kino did not.

One point that I feel is being missed is that this just does not apply to region A and B markets - there is also a C market. Now it does not matter whether or not the sales from that market are likely to be small; you now have a situation where now MoC is locked out of that market (unless people have region free equipment), and Kino is effectively not. (We're even overlooking the fact that Kino can now play on region B territory.)

Kino in principle now has the competitive edge, and this does not just affect MoC - it also affects those companies in Russia and China that wanted to put out Metropolis on blu. Do you honestly think people in those countries who are fans of the film are going to wait for a domestic release when they can get an impressive and competent release region free?

As to the Talmadge sisters discs, well a company's integrity does matter and its reaction to adverse incidents shows whether it's worthy or not. As Michael has pointed out above, Kino waited to respond until there were complaints. At best, it has demonstrated supreme incompetence. At worst, it has displayed a total lack of honour and has resulted in a situation where protectionism and market domination co-exist at the same time.

[MichaelB]

One of the great ironies of all this is that Kino's Blu-ray output has remained 100% region free (I think) - whereas Masters of Cinema (whose views on region-coding are all too familiar round these parts) have been forced to region-lock a handful of titles.

The kind of arrangements entered into here aren't that unusual, and we'll probably see more of them as people start pooling HD masters (which are still disproportionately expensive to create, especially when you consider that Blu-ray is still a much smaller market than DVD) - for instance, as has already been acknowledged, Criterion has entered into similar pacts with MoC and the BFI, and of course has always region-locked its Blu-rays as an across-the-board policy, even though they don't technically have to in many cases.

[doc mccoy]

Criterion has entered into similar pacts with MoC and the BFI, and of course has always region-locked its Blu-rays as an across-the-board policy, even though they don't technically have to in many cases.

I really wish Criterion would not region lock every single blu title - that's one thing I've always admired MoC, BFI and Kino for, more than Criterion. What I don't understand is that in the early days, some of Criterion's dvd releases were not locked. Why do they adopt such a stringent policy with blu now?

I already know the solution - go region free. But still it would be nice if they could put out a region free blu every once in a while.

[Napier]

Criterion has entered into similar pacts with MoC and the BFI, and of course has always region-locked its Blu-rays as an across-the-board policy, even though they don't technically have to in many cases.

I really wish Criterion would not region lock every single blu title - that's one thing I've always admired MoC, BFI and Kino for, more than Criterion. What I don't understand is that in the early days, some of Criterion's dvd releases were not locked. Why do they adopt such a stringent policy with blu now?

Simple, because Criterion and BFI adhere to their respective agreements, while Kino obviously does not.

[swo17]

You know, I'm willing to give Kino the benefit of the doubt that this was just a mistake. But it would be helpful if they would first address how this mistake was made not just in authoring, but also in packaging. And if they would disclose how many copies were affected.

Also, if they truly want to keep good relations with MoC, it doesn't seem like too much to ask that Kino determine some conservative estimate of the sales that they will be taking from MoC as a result of their error, and write them a check in this amount as a goodwill gesture. This is a flagship title for both companies and MoC will experience real losses from Kino's mistake. A simple "we're sorry" just isn't going to cut it.

[MichaelB]

I really wish Criterion would not region lock every single blu title - that's one thing I've always admired MoC, BFI and Kino for, more than Criterion. What I don't understand is that in the early days, some of Criterion's dvd releases were not locked. Why do they adopt such a stringent policy with blu now?

Region coding across the board has been Criterion policy for a great many years - long before they got into Blu-ray. I daresay if you trawled through hundreds of Beaver reviews you could work out the exact point that it occurred.

It was clearly a deliberate decision, and represented a significant change of policy, because previously Criterion's region-coding policy had been identical to Masters of Cinema and the BFI's present one - i.e. region-free whenever possible, region-lock only when contractually obliged to (tellingly, Criterion's Japanese releases have almost invariably been region-locked from the start).

Simple, because Criterion and BFI adhere to their respective agreements, while Kino obviously does not.

Actually, Criterion is under no obligation to region-lock all their releases - they've chosen to make it a blanket policy. I imagine they didn't have any choice with, say, The Leopard (I know Fox stipulated that the BFI release be Region B, so I assume the same was true for Criterion and Region A), but there are several other titles where I can't see any reason to region-lock.

Also, if they truly want to keep good relations with MoC, it doesn't seem like too much to ask that Kino determine some conservative estimate of the sales that they will be taking from MoC as a result of their error, and write them a check in this amount as a goodwill gesture. This is a flagship title for both companies and MoC will experience real losses from Kino's mistake. A simple "we're sorry" just isn't going to cut it.

I can sympathise with the sentiment, but the obvious riposte to this is that MoC hasn't licensed distribution rights for any territory other than the UK (and possibly Ireland), and their release is 100% compatible with Blu-ray players sold there. So why should the film's legitimate US distributor pay them compensation for lost income that they shouldn't technically have been earning in the first place?

Which of course is why MoC has been placed in such an awkward position, and why people - especially those locked to Region A who have been denied the choice that MoC wanted to give them - are legitimately angry.

[aox]

blu-ray.com

regardless of the controversy surrounding this encoding debacle and the fact that this lacks many special features, this is getting stellar reviews.

[MichaelB]

If it looks anything like the MoC - and it should do, since it was presumably sourced from exactly the same master - it does indeed look and sound absolutely stunning.

The major differences between it and the MoC are:

1. The film has English intertitles, versus MoC's more scholarly combination of the original German and optional English subtitles;
2. MoC has the David Kalat/Jonathan Rosenbaum commentary (which is superb);
3. MoC has a hefty booklet crammed with essays, including Luis Buñuel's original review from 1927;
4. The Kino has an exclusive video interview with Paula Felix- Didier, the Argentinian curator who found the missing footage;
5. Both releases have the (excellent) 54-minute Voyage to Metropolis documentary and the trailer for the 2010 reissue.

So the Kino disc isn't remotely bad by any reasonable yardstick - it's just that MoC pushed the boat out that little bit more.

[Murdoch]

And the MoC has their glorious package design - a minor plus, but it pushes me toward their release that much more.

[captveg]

Having been in the DVD/BD quality control business for 6+ years, my guess (and it is just a guess) is that the memo simply wasn't communicated clearly to the authoring facility and QC company that the disc needed to be region locked. It's a simple thing to do - just click some buttons on the authoring program - but is also something easily forgotten if it's not standard procedure (which for Kino, it isn't).

As far as the Region A logo not being on the packaging - disc authoring and packaging design in most companies are two completely different paths that rarely communicate with each other well. The packaging people had never needed to put a Region logo on their Blu-rays so far, so why would they need to now? That's exactly what I would be thinking if I was designing something to which I never got clear communication on for months...

As for the conspiracy theories.... you guys are hilarious. No one in the industry thinks like this. The execs at Kino don't want to risk pissing people off to get a few piddly sales. Those that prepped the transfer only care about that, not the authoring. The people that authored the disc have just as much a chance to not give a crap about silent films as any average Joe Public out there - it's a job. QC people are there to QC, and most in that industry are terribly ignorant of film history, especially silent cinema. Trust me, I'm the exception, not the rule.

Personally, as a US resident I rarely import, so it makes no difference to me. And Kino has been doing good work with Blu-ray so far. I'm willing to give them a pass on a QC error oversight (especially since in my case it doesn't effect me in the slightest).

[swo17]

Also, if they truly want to keep good relations with MoC, it doesn't seem like too much to ask that Kino determine some conservative estimate of the sales that they will be taking from MoC as a result of their error, and write them a check in this amount as a goodwill gesture. This is a flagship title for both companies and MoC will experience real losses from Kino's mistake. A simple "we're sorry" just isn't going to cut it.

I can sympathise with the sentiment, but the obvious riposte to this is that MoC hasn't licensed distribution rights for any territory other than the UK (and possibly Ireland), and their release is 100% compatible with Blu-ray players sold there. So why should the film's legitimate US distributor pay them compensation for lost income that they shouldn't technically have been earning in the first place?

If you'll forgive a crass analogy, basically, Kino and MoC got married this summer, and MoC just caught Kino in bed with a prostitute (possibly an accident on Kino's part). Now, maybe MoC shouldn't have invaded Kino's privacy, maybe the evidence won't be admissible in court, and maybe MoC is perfectly capable of going back home and just minding things around the house like before. But if Kino still wants this marriage to work, he's going to have to come up with one mighty big gesture to show how sorry he is.

[captveg]

But it would have been nice if Kino had pre-emptively issued a statement and an apology (perhaps privately to MoC) in advance of final copies being circulated - it wouldn't have helped much in the long term, but it would have shown goodwill, and might have made people more inclined to believe that it was an honest mistake from the start.

As is often the case with major missed QC issues, they were probably wholly unaware that the region coding was not put on the disc until consumer feedback started to come in. How could they give a heads up to MoC if they didn't know anything was wrong? Besides, I doubt their public statement came before a personal phone call to MoC. Just because we're not privy to that conversation doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But if Kino still wants this marriage to work, he's going to have to come up with one mighty big gesture to show how sorry he is.

Future pressings being corrected is that gesture. That's how things are done, as pro-b explained above with titles such as Apocalypto.

[doc mccoy]

But Captveg, you have to remember that Kino specifically demanded region-locking for this release as opposed to previous releases. It changed its general policy for this release to stop MoC intruding on the US market.

Even if we accept the excuse that this was a genuine screw-up, the point is that there needed to be a much higher standard of quality control on this release, particularly as Kino had made this release an exception by demanding the lock.

Kino did not meet that standard and people have the right to be aggrieved, because you now have a situation where anyone from any country can buy and play the Kino disc, but other distributors will not enjoy this advantage.

As to the gesture, well that's all very well, but as others have mentioned that probably will not come into play until the first pressing of blus have run out and let's face it, how long before that happens? After all, these are niche titles, not the typical blockbuster that you can buy at your local supermarket.

[MichaelB]

But it would have been nice if Kino had pre-emptively issued a statement and an apology (perhaps privately to MoC) in advance of final copies being circulated - it wouldn't have helped much in the long term, but it would have shown goodwill, and might have made people more inclined to believe that it was an honest mistake from the start.

As is often the case with major missed QC issues, they were probably wholly unaware that the region coding was not put on the disc until consumer feedback started to come in. How could they give a heads up to MoC if they didn't know anything was wrong?

If you have a contractual obligation to deliver something, surely this would be the first thing you'd check when you first got your hands on finished stock? And I can think of other distributors who do indeed issue pre-emptive warnings if things haven't turned out quite as planned - for instance, the BFI ran into two problems with Institute Benjamenta, firstly when the Dual Format sticker was inadvertently glued to the case instead of the shrinkwrapping (as intended), and secondly when the DVD turned out to be a case of right label, wrong film.

In both cases warnings were issued (not least in these very forums) as soon as those problems were spotted, and although a couple of over-eager retailers turned out to have shipped copies several days in advance of the official release date, everything was sorted out quickly and efficiently - and with a fair amount of goodwill because no-one had tried to hide anything. And in fact the second problem turned out to be quite handy in retrospect, as a repressing was necessary - which meant that the first problem could be dealt with at the same time.

[Napier]

Maybe a coupon for everyone who purchases the Kino, gets a "special" discount off of the MoC. Then I could get what I originally wanted, and give a swell gift. Just in time for the holiday season.

[captveg]

I don't think people here understand how the home video industry works. Kino execs make an agreement with MoC. None of these execs are authoring the disc.

Those authoring the discs probably have never met the Kino execs. They probably got the authoring work via a manager within Kino, whose job may or not be to convey a unique matter like region coding for this title to the authoring facility. Then, whether or not the authoring facility does their own internal QC or has someone do 3rd party QC, they also missed the issue or they were not made aware that the disc needed to be region coded.

This crap happens ALL THE TIME is the home video authoring/QC world. There are many, many links in the chain, and all those links are people doing their jobs, and if at one phase someone doesn't do their job - such as the execs telling the manager that this one title needs to be region coded, or the manager not informing the authoring facility, or someone at the authoring facility not marking "region A" on the disc layout paperwork, or the QC people not double-checking the region coding - then things get released with missed issues.

There's no vast conspiracy. There's no intent to harm. This is quite literally an oversight. Trust me - you wouldn't believe what major problems occur throughout the disc authoring and QC world. I have literally hundreds of stories I am unable to share due to NDAs. And this region coding issue is not even in the Top 10.

No, there was an honest mistake here, most likely due to a lack of clear communication since the region coding was against the standard operating procedure.

[tenia]

Fact is, in the end, Kino is not Region A as agreed, when MoC is Region B as agreed. Mistake or conspiracy, anyway, part of the deal has not been honored.

[captveg]

If you have a contractual obligation to deliver something, surely this would be the first thing you'd check when you first got your hands on finished stock? And I can think of other distributors who do indeed issue pre-emptive warnings if things haven't turned out quite as planned - for instance, the BFI ran into two problems with Institute Benjamenta, firstly when the Dual Format sticker was inadvertently glued to the case instead of the shrinkwrapping (as intended), and secondly when the DVD turned out to be a case of right label, wrong film.

In both cases warnings were issued (not least in these very forums) as soon as those problems were spotted, and although a couple of over-eager retailers turned out to have shipped copies several days in advance of the official release date, everything was sorted out quickly and efficiently - and with a fair amount of goodwill because no-one had tried to hide anything. And in fact the second problem turned out to be quite handy in retrospect, as a repressing was necessary - which meant that the first problem could be dealt with at the same time.

Right. A sticker is right there, plain as day. The wrong film being on the disc is right there, plain as day.

But if you're Joe Kino and you just got your product, how do you check that it's Region A only? You need a Region B player to try and play it and see if it does not load. Kino probably doesn't have a Region B player. Why would they? When would they ever need it, since their discs are always Region A capable? And if you only have a Region A player, you'd never know this issue existed. Until consumers with all-region Momitsu players or Region B players start telling you.

Fact is, in the end, Kino is not Region A as agreed, when MoC is Region B as agreed. Mistake or conspiracy, anyway, part of the deal has not been honored.

And what would you suggest Kino do?

Public apology with promise to correct oversight? Done.

Private apology? More than likely already done.

Firing their staff? Seems reasonable enough.

Killing all first born sons of Kino employees? Only justified...

By the way, there are some rule of thumbs in the QC world:

1. The project is already behind schedule when it arrives to QC, so turn it around fast.

2. The project is already over budget, so be efficient with cost.

3. Don't miss anything.... but don't forget #1 and #2.

Unfortunately, #3 gets little margin for error because of #1 and #2, especially #1.

And if a problem happens with #3 with such bad PR as Kino's now suffering.... people lose their livelihoods.

It's a fun business sometimes. Cutthroat, but fun...

Which is why the idea that Kino conspired to slip one past MoC is ridiculous. Outright absurd. Completely against any sense of reality. No one is gonna say to themselves "Let's not keep our agreement and see how that plays out. Hey, within a week of it coming out we may cost the company $100,000s, might have to fire half of our staff, and possibly damage the image of the company beyond repair, but it may just be worth it to sell three copies in Italy."

[swo17]

Public apology with promise to correct oversight? Done.

Dear Bank,

I just noticed that you accidentally placed an extra $10,000 in my account. I am just writing to let you know that if you ever accidentally do this again, I will totally return the money. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a new rec room to furnish.

I trust you will now consider this oversight corrected.

Yours truly,
Captain Vegetables