The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Steven H]

Does anyone share my love for Sorry, Wrong Number (Anatole Litvak, 1948)? God knows it has its flaws: the radio play is opened out and inflated with flashbacks within flashbacks, clunkily spelling everything out in tedious expository dialogue and giving the supporting cast little room to do interesting work. Hence, I guess, the surprisingly dull performance from Burt Lancaster. He only comes to life right at the end. But despite all this, Sol Polito's prowling camera keeps things from getting boring. The photography does a brilliant job of involving us in the protagonist's anxiety and panic, as well as sometimes adopting the position of the unseen killer lurking outside - and, later, inside - the house. There's also a wonderfully eerie sequence set on a beach on Staten Island.

Yes, I really liked this one too and I share your sentiments all around. You see the flaws, but there's just something about the movie that makes you forget. Is it just me or is so much in Sorry, Wrong Number ambiguous? The Evans character seems so much more creepy and strange than his version of events makes him out to be (this untrustworthy and ambiguous character of the storytelling is emphasized by the "stuck in bed" framing device), and the husband / wife relationship is peculiar all around. That Lancaster isn't the "man" in the relationship sounds like a whopper of a noir sex cue. In fact, the very idea of Stanwyck doomed for violation while laying in bed doesn't seem too, err... chaste.

I made a nice weekend of noir viewing. Basil Dearden's Pool of London I liked, but thought the heavies were boring (not a good quality for a noir). Otherwise, great looking movie, though it would compare unfavorably to Night and the City (a top ten for me) in regards to showing the underbelly of London. Rewatching Detour, I found myself enjoying it less because I just cannot think of anyone less interesting to watch and listen to than Tom Neal. Everything else about the film is pitch perfect, but Neal is like a rock in my shoe the whole time. I also made a nice Mann twofer with Desperate and Raw Deal, with the latter definitely getting a nice spot in my list. The second time around it's even better as you start really noticing how important Mann makes time, and the inevitability of the events that unfold, clear (see: clocks). I also thought this might be the best love triangle in noir. Desperate was fun, and somewhat bizarre with the lively Czech wedding thrown in the middle, but ultimately doesn't hold up if the limit is Top 50. Douglas Fowley as the private detective in Desperate reminded me a lot of John Ireland in Raw Deal. They both come off as nihilistic outsiders, smirking at the exploits of their doomed and less knowing cohorts.

A film that was one of the first noirs I ever saw, Sweet Smell of Success, has gotten much better with age, while another old Lancaster favorite, Criss Cross, has lost most of its luster, and comes off as less visually interesting now than I remember. It strikes me as too much of a simplistic morality tale to me now and the femme fatale remains the only interesting character in my eyes (but there isn't much of her to go around). So that was a busy weekend.

[Cold Bishop]

Force of Evil (Abraham Polonsky, 1948)

I saw this film years ago during my original noir kick as a teenager (suffice to say, it was film noir that really allowed me to get into classical studio filmmaking, helping me accept their formal properties as a different-but-perfectly-valid aesthetic choice, as opposed to finding the films "dated" with "old movie music", as I was wont to do), and while I certainly have a better grasp of the film, I don't know if my opinion has really changed. Suffice to say, I think it's much more exceptional than dominoharvey gives it credit for, although I don't quite like it as much as zedz (or the rest of its cult). If I can use that dreaded turn-of-phrase: it's almost a film that I admire probably more than I enjoyed watching it.

There's certainly lot to admire. It's probably the ultimate film gris. Its social critique is more scathing and all-encompassing than most other films in the sub-genre. Enough ink has been spilled on its politics that I probably have no real need to go into it, but its not surprising that HUAC explicitly called him "a dangerous person" for this and Body and Soul. Surprisingly, the film never extols socialism, never offering any real alternative to its corrupt world. Instead, it relentlessly focuses its energy on exposing the corrupting mechanics of capitalism, and the roles of individuals increasingly compromised and enmeshed by those mechanics. "Compromised" is probably the key word, as no one seems to ever be simply victim or simply a crook. In Polonsky's world, capitalism is so corrupting, so all-encompassing, so inescapable, that everyone both exploits and is exploited; everyone retaining some measure of culpability, even as they're being systematically devoured by other parties.

"Murky gray" is understating it. No body walks away from the film with their hands clean. Even Thomas Gomez is culpable; watching the film, one gets the sense that John Garfield is only being halfway self-delusional when he accuses Gomez and Marie Windsor of wanting to be corrupted, of wanting to be forced into beneficial situations that they're too self-righteous (and too self-deceptive) to make themselves. As such, the film is about personal responsibility, about Garfield shedding his "false consciousness" before the system consumes and destroys him like it does everyone else. The grayness of the film is even matched by its visual scheme: less Expressionistic chiaroscuro than Edward Hopper-inspired multiple lighting sources, leaving the characters engulfed in a world as gray as their consciences.

If the power of the film comes from its grayness, I also largely suspect its what keeps me at arms lengths. The film's "blank verse" dialogue may certainly ring with poetry, but it also leaves the film more than a little overly "conversational", for my taste. Likewise, Polonsky's attempts to perfectly integrate visual, dialogue and music is almost done too well: for such self-conscious flourishes, its surprising how "invisible" a lot of the direction feels. Which is fine, and an accomplishment in its own right. But for someone who prefers their film noirs a liitle more atmospheric, a little more hysterical, with a little bit more immediacy, it keeps me, for all its merit, at a bit of a distance. The major exception - and my favorite scene in the film - is the restaurant scene between Thomas Gomez and Howland Chamberlain. That perfect "balance" of music, dialogue and visuals is achieved here with an amount of immediacy, fatalistic atmosphere and escalating tension that was missing up until then - culminating in a quick-but-shocking burst of violence that could have came out of a Jules Dassin film, and which calls to mind the restaurant scene in The Godfather decades later.

Which isn't to say that its all drab or indistinct. Polonsky's street scenes, while short, are justly famous, and serve the purpose of showing Garfield's descent: 1) The first street shot, opening the film, of Wall Street, looking over the shoulder of Trinity Church toward the new religion of money, panning down to reveal the skyscraper (containing Garfield's office) hovering over the masses on the street below. 2) The second scene, a little over halfway through, after Garfield's realizes his career is over. Now he's on the same street he was hovering over before. Now, instead of masses, its eerily deserted, desolated, alone. 3) The final street scene, closing the film, where Garfield journeys to "the bottom of the world", to the bottom of the George Washington Bridge, down a seemingly endless staircase, to the rocks along Hudson River. Its a journey from high to low, from success to ruins, from towering architecture to rock and waves. The "endless staircase" is one of many that populate the film, Polonsky, like Hitchcock, uses the motif of staircases throughout, as well as elevators. Architecture in general plays a large role in the film. There's also the biblical dimensions - Cain and Abel, Adam tempting Eve, Judas's betrayal - which pepper the film. Then there's the final showdown, one of the few points where the film, visually, is submerged in darkness, ending with the door slowly opening, throwing a sharp, revealing light into a pitch-black world.

If anything can be said about the film, its that it deserves the reputation that the lesser On the Waterfront has. Despite the divergent political agendas, the similarities are striking, and one wonders whether (quite perversely) Kazan didn't have it in mind when making his film. In final analysis, Polonsky's tale of betrayal and conscience feels a lot more sincere and convincing, its politics a lot more intelligent, and as a whole, a lot less self-important. If the film doesn't immediately blow me away, it isn't to say it isn't exceptional in its own way. Polonsky's short career was truly a great loss to the American cinema. It's very likely it'll make the bottom half of my list. I just wish it could jump out at me the way many others claim it does.

[knives]

Border Incident

As the movie started I became so dejected that I was prepared to use it as an example of why Ed Wood isn't bad or as atypical in technique as people make him out to be, but that last half hour really reverses that. As soon as the two storylines converge some sort of dynamite gets released and it became great. Just for that scene with the tractor it earned my respect, though the moment before with the car is what caused me to change my original position.
To keep with the point of the list I love how Mann brings his western sensibilities to this genre, definitely a forefather to the Coens, I could easily see him making the same movie as one of his Jimmy Stewart vehicles, well maybe not Stewart.
Going back to the Ed Wood comment, because I know I'll get killed for it otherwise. People seem to make fun of his dialouge, but seen here and to a lesser degree in "Mann's" other noir He Walked By Night that foreign sort of expo, "But why," speech pattern is pretty similar to Wood's the biggest difference between Jailbait and Border Incident for example seems to be the budget to do something. That's not to say Wood could do something on the level of Man of the West or anything like that, but that the seemingly ridiculous aspects of Wood's cinema isn't as out of place as some people treat it.

Yeah, that was a bit out of place.

[Yojimbo]

Border Incident

As the movie started I became so dejected that I was prepared to use it as an example of why Ed Wood isn't bad or as atypical in technique as people make him out to be, but that last half hour really reverses that. As soon as the two storylines converge some sort of dynamite gets released and it became great. Just for that scene with the tractor it earned my respect, though the moment before with the car is what caused me to change my original position.
.

Its one of the most unfairly-maligned of all Anthony Mann films, but I'd put it only just a nose below 'Raw Deal' and 'T-Men', or perhaps a whisker, in the case of the latter.
And it achieved what might have been considered an impossible task prior to watching it; to afford Ricardo Montalban new respect, and forgive him his 'Fantasy Island' association.

[domino harvey]

Hey, he holds his own in those Esther Williams musicals!

[Yojimbo]

Hey, he holds his own in those Esther Williams musicals!

Too wet for me!

[domino harvey]

SCTV has something to say about all this

[Yojimbo]

Whatever happened to Hervé?
Did he fail the audition?

I used to love those Second City shows, which may have been re-runs when I saw them, back in the late 80s

[LQ]

I'm not flinging myself full-force into the Noir project, just watching from the sidelines...but I had to pipe up in praise for Caged. I got hooked by the screenshot that domino posted a couple pages back and just now finished watching it and wow, that is a searing piece of cinema. I was very impressed with Eleanor Parker's transformation from soft naïveté to hardened savvy, furthermore impressed with how the film hit all the women-in-prison notes but transcended any camp trappings to become something truly resonant and thoughtful. I don't know if I can add anything more as Cold Bishop's response to the film perfectly articulated what made it so meaningful. I was moved to voice my appreciation though.

[Yojimbo]

Perhaps its high time somebody mentioned the names of the true artists of noir: the 'sine qua nons' of the genre, the directors of photography.
First on anybody's list should be The Great John Alton, and I've yet to be disappointed by any film lensed by him, noir or otherwise.
And if the gloriously lurid colours of 'Slightly Scarlet' doesn't strictly qualify, then I might have to register a protest vote.

Not far behind him is Burnett Guffey ('Human Desire'; 'Private Hell 36'; 'The Brothers Rico', 'In A Lonely Place'), to mention just four of his notable credits)

James Wong Howe; George E.Diskant; Lee Garmes; Milton Krasner; Joseph McDonald; Nicholas Musuraca; John F.Seitz, and Harry J. Wild are other major players in the noir world

[Steven H]

I'll watch Caged and The Glass Key tomorrow, but thanks to the swapsies I finally got around to Lupino's The Hitch-Hiker, which just blew me away. I'd seen a few Lupino films before, but I wasn't expecting something like this (for my money, The Bigamist and Outraged are melodramas more than noirs). William Talman is a nice mix of menace, contempt, and an unabashed enthusiasm for causing other people to suffer (such great qualities for a noir villain, like Widmark in Kiss of Death) and I like Edmond O'Brien in it, unlike in say D.O.A. or Night Editor where I just didn't care for him. Cheers for Hitch-Hiker, zedz and by the way, I got around to writing a preliminary list and I think I've gone over to your side regarding "what is noir," for the most part at least.

Speaking of Lupino, she's worth watching and frankly steals the show as an unlucky in love lounge singer in Don Siegel's Private Hell 36, but I thought it was an otherwise uninteresting film, though ripe for reassessment. As for Siegel, I thought the closest a period noir would be to getting on my list would be Mann's The Tall Target, but his The Verdict will make it instead. There isn't a weak link in the cast and Joan Lorring really surprised me there. I guess this film is sometimes overlooked in comparison to Three Strangers (same principals), and the somewhat cliched mystery plot probably doesn't help, but it's just done so well.

I watched The Seventh Victim again trying to think of it as a "noir" and I guess I'm starting to get there. The film just makes so much more sense to me as a horror with the thinly disguised ugliness of the witch sect taking the place of the barely hidden supernatural in Lewton's other films. However, the criminality of their actions seems to be even less than secondary importance, and the cops just sort of incidentally "there." I did watch a definite Robson noir though, The Harder They Fall, which I really liked (though it would seem a little childish sat next to something like The Set-Up or Night and the City). I saw it back to back with Wyler's The Desperate Hours, also starring Bogart, and the films could be a nice showcase on how to (The Harder They Fall) and how not to (The Desperate Hours) shoot a 1:85 noir (in my eyes, at least).

In The Desperate Hours the camera set-ups are, at best, boring, and while it looks like it's trying hard to create hard vertical lines and compositions, they fall completely flat in the widescreen format. I felt like they were just cramming the insides of an over-lit two story ranch home into the middle of the shot and just hoping like a hail mary pass that the actors would cry and threaten at the right angle, but it's an awkward failure (every time they got near the staircase, I cringed). Like the look of the film, the performances seem like pure fumbling, more confused and careless than anxious and tense, effects of which I assume the film was going for. The Desperate Hours seemed to even forget who was in it half the time, as the important character of Arthur Kennedy's practically had to remind the audience who he was at the end (he could have been interesting, but instead was relegated to a mess of a subplot that didn't matter, or did it? who knows.) In contrast, The Harder They Fall contains stark compositions utilizing the widescreen format and excellent use of sightlines and depth of field (I've heard those are good things!) I could produce tons of screenshots and short youtube videos as evidence of this, but just watch it if you haven't (while I was writing this, yojimbo posted about Bernett Guffey! kismet). Bogart has purpose and his expressive face is actually capitalized on in the film, plus while the stakes are much lower in The Harder They Fall compared to The Desperate Hours, it is thoroughly engaging with some real tension.

[Yojimbo]

I watched 'The Sniper' from my 'Columbia Noir, Vol. 1' set, and then decided to follow it with the similarly themed 'He Walked By Night', which I hadn't previously seen, either.
For purposes of readability I'm posting comments separately.


Watching the excellent taut thriller/policier/character study 'The Sniper' has convinced me that I need to give 'Cornered' another look, as my recollection of my only viewing some 20 years or more had been disappointing.
This now makes for three dead cert Dmytrk entrants in my 50, alongsided the more feted 'Murder My Sweet' and 'Crossfire'.
Brisk, efficient, tautly directed might tend to suggest craftsman rather than artist, but Dmytrk knows his audience and the genre and even in the more mundane scenes of police procedural work, or extended dialogue, never once caused my attention to flag.
He is greatly helped by superb cinematography by Burnett Guffey, particularly in rooftop San Francisco shots, an intelligent script, and a fine performance by 'new-to-me' Arthur Franz.

And the final frame is a peach, which wouldn't be out of place in the company of some of Billy Wilder's greatest.

All the more remarkable given this was his first US film since naming names to HUAC, when he wouldn't have been 'flavour of the month'
The crowd scenes as the police closed in on the sniper reminded me of 'Dog Day Afternoon', and provided an interesting 'social commentary' sideline to the action.

Highly recommended

[Yojimbo]

Its probably unfair on Alfred Werker, who's given sole directorial credit for 'He Walked By Night', that one tends to assume that all the best directorial elements of the film are down to Anthony Mann's uncredited efforts, but, then, given that so much of the best elements of this film reminded me of 'T Men', the Mann-Alton collaboration of two years earlier, one could be forgiven for doing so.

My memory of a too-long-ago viewing of 'T Men' suggests it might be the better film, but then it didn't have Richard Basehart, a favourite noir actor of mine, who is astonishingly good here in an early role, as the title character.

John Alton's gorgeous Expressionistic lighting assault us almost from the get-go, and its almost amusing thinking of him and Basehart competing tigerishly for film 'MVP',throughout, but while they're far and away the best elements of the film, its not fair to say that its not also a fine example of the serial killer 'policier' variant, even if it occasionally flags among police procedural detail.

I was particularly pleased to see that ever-reliable character actor, Whit Bissell, - always reliable in solid citizen and caring professional roles, - given extended screen time as the unwitting business partner for Basehart's character's activities, and he rose to the occasion, splendidly.

I was also chuffed at being able to spot John Dehner, who I remembered from a boyhood fave tv series, 'The Virginian, - and who I don't recall seeing too often in favourite films, - and that an actor with whom I share my 'real' name was listed among the bit parts.

If for no other reasons than Alton's, Basehart's, - and yes, Whit Bissell's, - involvements, this one has booked its place in my 50

[Yojimbo]

I didn't really know what to expect with 'Murder By Contract', the one remaining film of the 'Columbia Noir, Volume 1' set I hadn't previously seen: in fact the only thing I'd known about it in advance of watching it was the mini-blurb on the box, so it caught me totally unawares.
I'm not sure that it could , strictly speaking, and even by the loosest of definitions, be considered 'noir', but who cares, because its a beautiful little film which breaks so many genre rules its not true: already I'm looking forward to Lerner's 'City of Fear' on my soon-come 'Volume Two' box-set, if only for the fact that its by the same director.
Going solely by its year of release, I'm thinking Lerner and his writers may have been influenced by Melville's 'Bob Le Flambeur'.
And that perhaps it at least partly influenced 'Branded To Kill', 'Blast of Silence', 'Shoot The Piano Player', 'Bande A Part', and probably a number of other oddball or quirky films right up through 'Consequences of Love'
(and could it just be possible that the fun-loving, insistent Spanish guitar riff was inspired by similar from my guilty pleasure, 'Mesa of Lost Women' ).
And I kept thinking Samuel Beckett must have been an influence, not least in the shenanigans of the hapless minders

Its just a pity I didn't see this one in time to include it in my Top 1,000 list.
Because its the kind of film that I'd have been honoured to include

[knives]

Love Murder by Contract. It really is the connective tissue between borderless action and noir. A nasty intense psychology that takes a unique road. The lead performance is great too. Glad it's getting talked about. It's been a short time, but I remember the look being great. Different enough for one to take notice, but still distinctively noir. That ending with the girl and tunnels is especially well done.
I have no clue where to stand on Lady in the Lake though. The gimmick is interesting and down well. The performances are excellent too, but the script leaves a lot for me to desire. The commentary, which I'm listening to now, is helping me sort it, but damn if I know what to think.

[Yojimbo]

Love Murder by Contract. It really is the connective tissue between borderless action and noir. A nasty intense psychology that takes a unique road. The lead performance is great too. Glad it's getting talked about. It's been a short time, but I remember the look being great. Different enough for one to take notice, but still distinctively noir. That ending with the girl and tunnels is especially well done.
I have no clue where to stand on Lady in the Lake though. The gimmick is interesting and down well. The performances are excellent too, but the script leaves a lot for me to desire. The commentary, which I'm listening to now, is helping me sort it, but damn if I know what to think.

Its funny about the tunnels, because I'd just watched 'He Walked By Night' last night which had Richard Basehart's killer making similar use of them, and him being undone by the gas, firstly
(as was Edwards' contractor)
And then there's the tunnel chase in 'The Third Man', and the insistent zither score which many compare to 'Murder's' score.

I'm not a huge fan of 'Lady in the Lake', but its got Audrey Totter in it, which is generally enough for me.
And probably Lloyd Nolan's best ever performance, and a very fine one at that.
So I guess that clinches a place for it

[Cold Bishop]

Lady in the Lake is entertaining, but Ride the Pink Horse is where Robert Montgomery really shines. It's about as tough and no-nonsense as ...Lake is gimmicky and frivolous. Plus, its one of the original films maudits. Well worth tracking down. I'll probably write an appreciation for it when I get the chance to rewatch it.

[Yojimbo]

Lady in the Lake is entertaining, but Ride the Pink Horse is where Robert Montgomery really shines. It's about as tough and no-nonsense as ...Lake is gimmicky and frivolous. Plus, its one of the original films maudit. Well worth tracking down. I'll probably write an appreciation for it when I get the chance to rewatch it.

I thought the Thomas Gomez' character almost derailed 'Horse', and he's normally such a reliable character actor, especially on familiar ground.
Ironically given his name, and presumed association, but I think he overdid the ethnicity, albeit he redeemed himself somewhat in the latter part of the film

[domino harvey]

Cracked into the second Columbia Noir set with Tourneur's Nightfall. This is a pretty slight b-noir and probably won't make anyone's list, but I did like how the film made everyday hulking objects like oil well pumps and snowplows into instruments of violence. The film's plot is too skimpy to really reach feature-length and so we get an entire b-story with the superfluous character of an insurance inspector who ultimately has no purpose whatsoever within the narrative other than to make Ray feel better. Brian Keith and Rudy Bond have fun as the bad guys, with Bond in particular making the most of what little he's given. As for Aldo Ray, he is probably the contract player least-likely to be mistaken for an artist, so start prepping your willful suspension of disbelief now.

PS: Conor Oberst has a cameo!

[Steven H]

I didn't care much for Nightfall. I wasn't thinking about it at the time, but yeah the insurance guy is pretty useless. It was kinda hard to believe Aldo Ray was all that scared of the crooks. I was waiting for him to just reach out and tear them limb from limb (along with the girl, actually. Watching him come on to her in the bar made me worry for her life.) But Ray being out of place wouldn't be so bad if the movie had been meatier (the fashion show scene's tension was so flat that I was more scared for Bancroft losing her job than getting killed). Caged was great by the way. I can't think of anything to add to what's already been said except to especially applaud Betty Garde for "Kitty."

In regard to "What is noir" would anyone here consider Mr. Arkadin one? It *is* an expressionistic seedy detective film, but probably more of a globetrotting adventure. If it was all happening in L.A., and Arkadin was played by Raymond Burr or someone instead, I wouldn't have any doubts. As it stands, I'm on the fence.

[Yojimbo]

With all the negative comment about 'Nightfall', I'm particularly looking forward to seeing it again.
My only viewing, of almost 20 years ago, was a relatively favourable one and I want to confirm my memory of it or see why everybody else seems so down on it.
Of course the first I plan to watch is 'City of Fear' after being bowled over by 'Murder by Contract': it doesn't seem to have as good a reputation as 'Murder', but if its only half as good it'll be a winner

[Yojimbo]

Leaving aside discussions of individual films for a moment, does anybody else have favourite noir actors/directors/dps that you expect will dominate your list.

I've already listed John Alton and I expect that I'll be including every one of his films that I'm able to see.
Of the directors Lang, Siodmak, Otto Preminger, Anthony Mann , Edward Dmytryk, Sam Fuller, and perhaps even Don Siegel will feature prominently.

Obviously Mitchum will dominate the actors list, with Dana Andrews, Gloria Grahame, and Claire Trevor also prominent.

But my two special favourites, among the less-feted stars, are Richard Basehart and Audrey Totter
(who of course starred opposite each other in the wonderful 'Tension')

[Steven H]

For directors, of course all the Dassin and Hathaway noirs are worth watching (and most will make my list). As for actors, William Bendix makes about everything he's in usually a notch or two better than it would've been without, and at least watchable. My list will have a lot of Bendix, Robert Ryan and Ida Lupino (can't really think beyond that).

[Yojimbo]

For directors, of course all the Dassin and Hathaway noirs are worth watching (and most will make my list). As for actors, William Bendix makes about everything he's in usually a notch or two better than it would've been without, and at least watchable. My list will have a lot of Bendix, Robert Ryan and Ida Lupino (can't really think beyond that).

Forgot about Bob and Ida,....and Henry Hathaway, come to that, although not all of his films are essential noir
(and if colour noirs are permitted, then 'Niagara' will join 'Slightly Scarlet' on my list).

I'm not so much a fan of William 'monkey music' Bendix although I'm sure plenty of films he featured in will make it.

[domino harvey]

Bendix is the king-- his Blue Dahlia is number two on my provisional Noir list!