The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Yojimbo]

Embarrassed to say I haven't seen it, or most classic noirs for that matter. That's why this is a good exercise I suppose. Won't really be in my element until we get into one of the horror genres.

I look forward to that one, too

[zedz]

the protagonists have the appearance of nothing so much as scurrying laboratory rats under a microscope.

That must be a hell of a microscope! (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Looks like I'm going to be alone in avoiding any and all French, Japanese, German, Italian and Kenyan films. But I've got more than enough to work with.

I made a quick list last night, based simply on what I could see on the shelves as I wandered around the room and dividing them into three tiers, and came up with the suspicious total of 49 films that had to be on my list, and this was leaving off anything which I didn’t actually possess on DVD (so The Window at least would get me to 50).

But the most interesting thing about the exercise was that I found I had really strong opinions about what was and wasn’t noir, even leaving aside elementary distinctions which make things “obviously not noir” for me – non-English language or post-’60 / pre-’40 examples. And those kind of personal distinctions are going to act as a wild card for some titles, I’m sure.

For instance, there’s no way I could consider Rear Window as noir, though for all I know it’s probably canonical for some folk. I can see some basic elements from a noir checklist in there (and in Vertigo, though that seems even further off the mark to me, and I don’t like it as much), but stylistically the film seems pretty definitively its own thing, and a very Hitchcock thing at that. Same goes for Rope. But I’m completely fine with Shadow of a Doubt (likely top ten) and 75% fine with Strangers on a Train. White Heat is another film I adore which some people are likely to vote for, but not me – it seems far more like a part of the whole gangster cycle of the thirties to me (with a post-war edge). And since it’s come up, I don’t really think of The Seventh Victim as noir either, though it’s a much less open-and-shut case than those other ones, so I’ll take this as an excuse to rewatch it.

However – and here’s where things inevitably get screwily idiosyncratic – there are films that will probably be on my list which are non-standard in obvious ways: Pursued of course, Leave Her to Heaven, Reign of Terror.

And I was hemming and hawing about whether or not to include British films – not that there are many I’ll be agonising over – but I figured that since Night and the City was, for me, incontrovertibly noir (though not on my shortlist), they’d have to be acceptable. So I can add The Upturned Glass to the list, at least until I’m overcome by another wave of purism.

[Murdoch]

You're not alone zedz, I'm sticking strictly with the the American noirs of the studio era - with the sole exception of my swapsie because it's the only film that I think expands upon the noir portrayal of women by placing the femme fatale within a contemporary setting while maintaining the genre's philosophy on gender relations.

[domino harvey]

The Line Up has my favorite car chase scene in it. It might not be as real as say Bullitt, but where the camera is placed makes for an exhilarating ride (even in bad back projection). As already mentioned Wallach is insane in this. If you've enjoyed any of Pesci's performances you will love this one. It is definitely my choice for Seigel noir. If all of that doesn't convince you, than just see it for the commentary. It's the most absurd thing of its kind.

The movie is way too uneven with a ton of draggy TV staticness for me to consider a place on my list for it, but Wallach is great and I loved his mistake at the end concerning The Man. I actually listened to the commentary last night and he's obviously going for a Howard Stern lets-see-how-far-I-can-push-this-public-persona thing. I did like how he described a location as being shot on "Polk Street-- that's P-O-K-E"

[domino harvey]

You're not alone zedz, I'm sticking strictly with the the American noirs of the studio era - with the sole exception of my swapsie because it's the only film that I think expands upon the noir portrayal of women by placing the femme fatale within a contemporary setting while maintaining the genre's philosophy on gender relations.

There might be a few British noirs on my list, but it'll be 97% American I wager (if not all). Again, vote for what you think should be included-- I'm not getting involved in any of this. I will also personally stay away from neonoirs (which are almost uniformly terrible anyway), but a couple color films will definitely place (Leave Her to Heaven for sure). And I'm all for creative decisions. I could care less about Huston's Maltese Falcon (ZZZZZZZZ), but his We Were Strangers, a film that doesn't outwardly seem like a noir, actually fits the bill perfectly when looked at retrospectively and will make my list.

[Yojimbo]

the protagonists have the appearance of nothing so much as scurrying laboratory rats under a microscope.

That must be a hell of a microscope! (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Looks like I'm going to be alone in avoiding any and all French, Japanese, German, Italian and Kenyan films. But I've got more than enough to work with.

I made a quick list last night, based simply on what I could see on the shelves as I wandered around the room and dividing them into three tiers, and came up with the suspicious total of 49 films that had to be on my list, and this was leaving off anything which I didn’t actually possess on DVD (so The Window at least would get me to 50).

But the most interesting thing about the exercise was that I found I had really strong opinions about what was and wasn’t noir, even leaving aside elementary distinctions which make things “obviously not noir” for me – non-English language or post-’60 / pre-’40 examples. And those kind of personal distinctions are going to act as a wild card for some titles, I’m sure.

For instance, there’s no way I could consider Rear Window as noir, though for all I know it’s probably canonical for some folk. I can see some basic elements from a noir checklist in there (and in Vertigo, though that seems even further off the mark to me, and I don’t like it as much), but stylistically the film seems pretty definitively its own thing, and a very Hitchcock thing at that. Same goes for Rope. But I’m completely fine with Shadow of a Doubt (likely top ten) and 75% fine with Strangers on a Train. White Heat is another film I adore which some people are likely to vote for, but not me – it seems far more like a part of the whole gangster cycle of the thirties to me (with a post-war edge). And since it’s come up, I don’t really think of The Seventh Victim as noir either, though it’s a much less open-and-shut case than those other ones, so I’ll take this as an excuse to rewatch it.

However – and here’s where things inevitably get screwily idiosyncratic – there are films that will probably be on my list which are non-standard in obvious ways: Pursued of course, Leave Her to Heaven, Reign of Terror.

And I was hemming and hawing about whether or not to include British films – not that there are many I’ll be agonising over – but I figured that since Night and the City was, for me, incontrovertibly noir (though not on my shortlist), they’d have to be acceptable. So I can add The Upturned Glass to the list, at least until I’m overcome by another wave of purism.

I've been known, on more than a few occasions, to be dogmatically 'anal' about my noir definitions: don't ask, you'd probably live to regret it.
But, quite apart from the fact that its the French that originally coined the description, and the emigre Germanic directors and DPs who helped perfect the form in Hollywood, the French, particularly Carne-Gabin, might be said to be the nation that provided the prototype.
I'll probably limit my list to Hollywood films of the 40s-50s as much as possible, but with the door being left open for the likes of those Kurosawa Masterpieces, and the fact that I'll always find a place in any noir list of mine for 'Chinatown', 'The Underneath', and 'Kill Me Again', I'll relax my standards this time for quality control purposes, if nothing else.

But definitely no place for 'Scarface', though: and I consider it one of Hawks' 3 greatest films,....which, by defintion, should merit it a place in anybody's Top 100 list.

What Kenyan, proto-noir, would you recommend?

[Highway 61]

I could care less about Huston's Maltese Falcon (ZZZZZZZZ).

Same here. It definitely won't be making my list. Hammett's novel is immensely readable, but Huston's film fails to capture its sleazy, almost amoral quality. For my money, the Holy Trinity of crime fiction that is Hammett, Chandler, and Macdonald has never been properly adapted (save for Altman's Long Goodbye, which is more Altman than Chandler). Speaking of which, although I'll likely avoid neo-noir myself, is Wenders's Hammett worth watching? I know Coppola recut and reshot it, but this list might provide the impetus to finally watch it.

[Yojimbo]

I could care less about Huston's Maltese Falcon (ZZZZZZZZ).

Same here. It definitely won't be making my list. Hammett's novel is immensely readable, but Huston's film fails to capture its sleazy, almost amoral quality. For my money, the Holy Trinity of crime fiction that is Hammett, Chandler, and Macdonald has never been properly adapted (save for Altman's Long Goodbye, which is more Altman than Chandler). Speaking of which, although I'll likely avoid neo-noir myself, is Wenders's Hammett worth watching? I know Coppola recut and reshot it, but this list might provide the impetus to finally watch it.

you've just reminded me of Dick Richards', and Mitchums-John Ireland's, gorgeous colour remake of 'Farewell My Lovely', and provided the great Jim Thompson with a respectful cameo, which will definitely make my list.
'Hammett' might, also.
But you should check out his 'American Friend'.

As for Hammet adaptations, I take it you've yet to see 'Yojimbo'?

[Highway 61]

As for Hammet adaptations, I take it you've yet to see 'Yojimbo'?

Yes, of course. I meant within the crime genre. Yojimbo and the Leone which it inspired are both great movies. I have not, however, seen the Mitchum Farewell, My Lovely. It's my favorite Chandler novel, so perhaps I should track down the OOP DVD.

[Yojimbo]

As for Hammet adaptations, I take it you've yet to see 'Yojimbo'?

Yes, of course. I meant within the crime genre. Yojimbo and the Leone which it inspired are both great movies. I have not, however, seen the Mitchum Farewell, My Lovely. It's my favorite Chandler novel, so perhaps I should track down the OOP DVD.

although he's obviously too old for the part, Mitchum does a great Marlowe, and all concerned do the novel justice
(my second favourite Chandler, after 'The Long Goodbye').
And the colour cinematography is gorgeous; helps set the mood and tone perfectly
(no need to worry about Sly Stallone's presence, either!)

[knives]

I guess I'm going by the loosest definition of noir here. For it to count for me the film simply has to an existential crime movie. That top part is more important than time or place. Maybe only character trumps it. For me, by that definition, that makes Pickpocket one of the essential noirs and I'll just blab about the movies for their qualities as noirs rather than movies. In the case of Pickpocket it may not be a typical dames and gunfire movie, but I see it as having all of the essential pieces. The lead fighting his (and others perceived) amorality, a crime setting things in a tizzy, a woman that may be his damnation or salvation. Things along those lines that lead to existential questioning.

[Steven H]

I'm sticking within a certain look and timeframe, but since the American noir style was rooted in so many emigres, I'd feel bad leaving out foreign language picks.

[Matt]

I also will not be putting The Maltese Falcon on my list, and I actually like it okay. Just doesn't feel noir to me. As for Hitchcock, Strangers on a Train and Notorious are on my preliminary list, but nothing else. Again, not because of quality, but because of appropriateness. Though maybe I can persuade myself to put Vertigo on the list.

And even though I don't think I need to remind anyone of its existence, because it has not been mentioned yet: The Narrow Margin. This is probably going to end up in my top ten.

[Yojimbo]

I guess I'm going by the loosest definition of noir here. For it to count for me the film simply has to an existential crime movie. That top part is more important than time or place. Maybe only character trumps it. For me, by that definition, that makes Pickpocket one of the essential noirs and I'll just blab about the movies for their qualities as noirs rather than movies. In the case of Pickpocket it may not be a typical dames and gunfire movie, but I see it as having all of the essential pieces. The lead fighting his (and others perceived) amorality, a crime setting things in a tizzy, a woman that may be his damnation or salvation. Things along those lines that lead to existential questioning.

I'd never even considered 'Pickpocket', but perhaps thats what will help make the final list so interesting: the diversity of perspectives.
(speaking of Bresson: what about 'Les Dames Du Bois de Boulogne'?)

[Matt]

My partner suggested Pickpocket yesterday, and I think I will need to rewatch it with this purpose in mind. I don't really see why it wouldn't be appropriate, though. Not sure about Dames, though. In my memory (haven't watched it since the Criterion DVD came out), it seems too... romantic.

[knives]

I'd consider that more of a romance than a noir. There's no real criminal act to set off the existential horror. Instead it feels more to me like a perverted Wilde play (never thought I'd say that in that fashion). Though if you give a good explanation I'd definitely consider it. As for Hitchcock, I'm not sure what, but I've never considered any of his films noir. Criminal yes, but he seemed to go past that aspect and delight in the more scary and humorous aspects of crime fiction.

[Matt]

If you think of Bruno as the femme fatale, Strangers on a Train makes complete sense as a noir.

[Yojimbo]

I'd consider that more of a romance than a noir. There's no real criminal act to set off the existential horror. Instead it feels more to me like a perverted Wilde play (never thought I'd say that in that fashion). Though if you give a good explanation I'd definitely consider it. As for Hitchcock, I'm not sure what, but I've never considered any of his films noir. Criminal yes, but he seemed to go past that aspect and delight in the more scary and humorous aspects of crime fiction.

I hadn't really considered 'Les Dames', myself, but I did seem to recall much conniving and conspiring which might have been enough to merit consideration.
I've never included any Hitchcock film in any noir list of mine and I don't intend to make this an exception.

Whatever its noir credentials, and although I might be in a minority here in expressing its greatness, Huston's 'Maltese Falcon' is certainly on my 'shortlist', although I've generally been reluctant to include it in any list of fave noirs

[Titus]

Whatever its noir credentials, and although I might be in a minority here in expressing its greatness, Huston's 'Maltese Falcon' is certainly on my 'shortlist', although I've generally been reluctant to include it in any list of fave noirs

I love The Maltese Falcon, but agree with Matt that it just doesn't feel like a noir to me. The classification of noirs is so slippery and flexible that I tend to go by instinct, and sometimes what I subconsciously categorize as a noir (or non-noir) isn't totally logical. A different private detective film that I also love, The Dark Corner, will probably chart for me despite being, overall, more lighthearted than Falcon. Maybe the presence of Bogie just precludes a film from being a noir -- the strength he projects feels at odds with the genre.

If I were to include a Hitchcock, it'd probably be The Wrong Man.

[zedz]

The movie is way too uneven with a ton of draggy TV staticness for me to consider a place on my list for it, but Wallach is great and I loved his mistake at the end concerning The Man. I actually listened to the commentary last night and he's obviously going for a Howard Stern lets-see-how-far-I-can-push-this-public-persona thing. I did like how he described a location as being shot on "Polk Street-- that's P-O-K-E"

I really enjoyed Ellroy's earlier commentary (I think it was Crime Wave - yet another top ten film for me), but with this one he really was all schtick and not much else, which got pretty tedious.

While I'm here, a few favourites that might be overlooked:

Somewhere in the Night - For me, the ultimate noir-as-bad-dream film. The plot is so outré it could have been slipped into Inland Empire intact, and the whole thing has a stiff, baffling atmosphere I can't shake.

The Thief - The closest noir ever got to Jeanne Dielman, a hypnotic, wordless procedural of spying, stalking and killing.

Shockproof - Who would have thought that Fuller + Sirk would actually work? The material is pretty boilerplate, but those two give some amazing inflections to several sequences.

The Amazing Mr. X - In this case the material is rather wretched, but Alton's photography is so spectacular it carries the entire film, transforming a tawdry little scam into a richly imagined dream vision.

And responding to Matt - it sounds like we're in neighbouring puritanical camps with regards to genre definitions, but I hadn't even considered Notorious, though I'll put that on my 'reconsider (baby)' list too.

[Murdoch]

I could care less about Huston's Maltese Falcon (ZZZZZZZZ).

Same here. It definitely won't be making my list. Hammett's novel is immensely readable, but Huston's film fails to capture its sleazy, almost amoral quality.

Yeah, I have the same opinion. My main problem with the film is it reduces Hammett's novel to farce-like and fails to capture its anti-capitalist undertones and moral ambiguity.

Still have to check out Leave Her to Heaven, although it has some convincing to do since for me color and noir rarely go well together.

[domino harvey]

Still have to check out Leave Her to Heaven, although it has some convincing to do since for me color and noir rarely go well together.

Gene Tierney out-psychopaths every femme fatale I can think of, and all with that New England brittle debutanteness of hers-- chilling!

Somewhere in the Night and Shockproof will definitely make my list. I ordered the Thief earlier and will weigh in once I give it a spin. As far as Hitchcock goes, I guess because they're so well-budgeted, I never thought of them as noirs. But that's not fair, since plenty of noirs had money and work. I'll have to think about why I don't associate his work more readily. Also, I re-watched some of Two of a Kind again today and it might place higher than I anticipated-- I'm still having a total blast with it!

[zedz]

Still have to check out Leave Her to Heaven, although it has some convincing to do since for me color and noir rarely go well together.

Gene Tierney out-psychopaths every femme fatale I can think of, and all with that New England brittle debutanteness of hers-- chilling!

Yep. I think this is a case where one particular ultra-noir element is sufficient to throw all the anti-noir quibbles overboard, just so it can impassively watch them drown. Maybe the same thing could be said for the photography in Reign of Terror.

[domino harvey]

Just throwing this out here, but it might be fun for voters to include, along with their Top 50s, their votes for best Femme Fatale, Good Girl, Guy in the Wrong Place at the Wrong Time, and Bad Guy. Kind of like a movie-version of the Forum Awards? I dunno, just a thought

[antnield]

Maybe the presence of Bogie just precludes a film from being a noir -- the strength he projects feels at odds with the genre.

In A Lonely Place?