The BBFC vs. UK Independent Labels

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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#76 Post by MichaelB »

akaten wrote:I certainly wasn't suggesting an absent of any rating system, rather its give and take, and something that is needed both due to the failings of BBFC, viewer habits and the rise of new technology and online means of watching films that make it more difficult to implement.
I'd actually argue that the failings are down to the existing legal system rather than the BBFC, which has generally been pretty sensible and pragmatic since the post-2000 rethink of its overall policy. A fundamental problem is that the Video Recordings Act is even more out of date than the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act and needs wholesale reform (or preferably abolition).

Ironically, the VRA was created in the first place as a response to technological innovation running ahead of legislation (i.e. video recordings not being subject to any kind of censorship), but it's since been superseded by even more innovation, particularly in the increased globalisation of distribution. Which is why many of its provisions are essentially redundant.
The articles suggest the industry will adopt greater role in determining the nature of content rating in exchange for greater powers for the Video Standards Council than the BBFC could ever have hoped to use in the existing system (revoking a publisher license) to ensure compliance and prevent the illegal selling of games to minors.
But it would first have to lobby the government, as the VRA acts as a barrier to any fundamental change in how the BBFC vets films - the games industry is much more flexible here because it's not tied down by statutory requirements in the same way. It also seems to me that the mainstream industry (if not independents like MoC) is generally pretty happy with the present arrangement, since the BBFC is much better equipped as a flak-catcher in case of trouble. And in my experience, distributors tend to be much more conservative with problematic material, cutting out minutes even if only seconds or frames pose any legal problems.
This is what the film industry could do with, a means to rate that is more in line with how films are produced and crucially marketed (the benefits of which are addressed in an interview with Microsoft's Neil Thompson at the site above) and with safety measures to protect all from abuses that could harm the industry.
What's being proposed seems broadly in line with the current system in British cinemas, whereas you can show films without prior BBFC vetting, but with extra hassle (notably getting local authority approval for screenings to go ahead). I've long argued that the system for video releases should be broadly similar - voluntary, but with penalties for non-compliance (albeit penalties that indies like MoC probably won't care about, such as restricted releases in mainstream outlets).
One benefit would be to do away with the BBFC idea of rating according to "broad public opinion," when broad public often has no interest in the films in question, in the same way documentaries are often not rated in the same way as cinema, with a more nuanced system taking into account the nature of the content and its likely audience.
Well, this takes advantage of a VRA exemption that can't be extended to fiction works without a change in the law. But I'm not sure what you mean by "broad public opinion", because the BBFC has long operated a policy whereby it's more lenient (or, if you like, nuanced) to independent films that are unlikely to gain a wide audience - former BBFC head John Trevelyan admitted this way back in 1970 when he conceded that he wouldn't have passed W.R. Mysteries of the Organism for general release, and was very annoyed with its distributor for giving it a wider release than he'd expected! They've had a longstanding tradition of using smaller releases that are less likely to get noticed by the broader public to experiment with pushing the boat out - though now that they pass virtually anything that isn't actually illegal, it's less and less relevant.
akaten

Re: The BBFC and MoC

#77 Post by akaten »

I quoted the phrase broad public opinion from the BBFC policy on their website;

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I cannot in any way offer a detailed counter argument in the same way you have due to your greater insight into its workings, but if BBFC personnel find ways to bend the rules and adopt a loose reading of the existing law doesn't that suggest in everyday practise the existing legislation has outstayed its welcome for the BBFC staff as well?

In which case due to the absent of government interest in direct finance and control of the BBFC, it could publicly lead a call for widespread reform alongside key industry figures, citing laws that are a hindrance in its everyday workings and ensure it is unable to respond to technological innovation and changes of viewing habits.

Rather than having opposed the current overhaul of videogame ratings it should support them as providing an ideal window of opportunity for new laws to allow for wholesale changes in the BBFC remit.
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vogler
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#78 Post by vogler »

No need to worry about the BBFC for the time being since the entire British video classification system has just collapsed. :lol:

In fact it never even existed in the first place.
Adam
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#79 Post by Adam »

MichaelB wrote: Well, I've been rather surprised by some things that have been recently classified '12' - not least the disturbing, sexually explicit La Gueule Ouverte (!) Not that any twelve-year-olds would get much beyond the long-take opening before switching off, so it's not an especially big deal.
The ratings folks probably didn't get past it either...
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zedz
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#81 Post by zedz »

vogler wrote:No need to worry about the BBFC for the time being since the entire British video classification system has just collapsed. :lol:

In fact it never even existed in the first place.
This is positively surreal. The following sounds especially dodgy, however:
timesonline wrote:The Department for Culture, Media and Sport said that it had received legal advice that people who had previously been prosecuted and convicted would be unable to overturn their convictions or seek compensation.
Obviously the government would like to spin it this way, but surely it's out of the question that people convicted under a nonexistent law have no legal remedy?
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Murdoch
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#82 Post by Murdoch »

I get the feeling this blunder will only lead to stronger censorship laws, still funny though.
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#83 Post by MichaelB »

I always wondered where the Video Recordings Act stood in relation to the European Union - and now I know: it didn't!
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Peacock
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#84 Post by Peacock »

so does this mean that retailers, until the act is passed, WILL ignore the ratings law and sell what they want to who they want? or will hmv for example still prevent 10 year olds buying 18s?
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#85 Post by peerpee »

Everyone will toe the line out of fear, as they did for the last 25 years.
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Sloper
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#86 Post by Sloper »

Or we'll just produce a very small generation of extremely corrupt and degenerate youths. An interesting experiment - Channel 4 should make a needlessly exploitative documentary about it.
akaten

Re: The BBFC and MoC

#87 Post by akaten »

Sounds too good to be true, all it needs now is some smart arse teen to bring an age discrimination case against a retailer. In all seriousness I wouldn't be surprised if the discovery came about as they were changing the BBFC remit due to the aforementioned videogame ratings coming into force. We just have to hope that away from press scare tactics that sane minds will prevail, ideally with industry pushing for reform of the entire rating system.

Incidentally doesn't this mean that MOC and other DVD labels could claim back all past BBFC fees, and for that matter are no longer required to submit new films for classification?
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#88 Post by MichaelB »

akaten wrote:Sounds too good to be true, all it needs now is some smart arse teen to bring an age discrimination case against a retailer. In all seriousness I wouldn't be surprised if the discovery came about as they were changing the BBFC remit due to the aforementioned videogame ratings coming into force.
Apparently that's exactly what happened.
We just have to hope that away from press scare tactics that sane minds will prevail, ideally with industry pushing for reform of the entire rating system.
To be honest, I don't think it needs much reform - the present classification system works pretty well. The major change I'd make would be to make it optional, so labels who really aren't that bothered about appealing to under-18s can opt to release their films without BBFC classification at the risk of more limited distribution or advertising (i.e. similar to the situation in the US). The existing criminal law can be used to deal with dodgy material, and conscientious distributors who are worried about things like one-off animal cruelty can always opt back in to the BBFC system for specific releases.

(Speaking from experience, one undoubted benefit of BBFC classification is that you can be reasonably sure your film has been given a thorough legal vetting - and to date no BBFC-approved film has ever been the subject of a successful criminal prosecution).
Incidentally doesn't this mean that MOC and other DVD labels could claim back all past BBFC fees
It would be interesting to see if that held legal water - is anyone going to try?
and for that matter are no longer required to submit new films for classification?
The problem with that course of action is that the government has made it clear that they intend to re-enact the VRA as soon as is realistically practical - three months is the suggested timeframe. Which means that while it might be legally possible to release unclassified DVDs now, they'll all have to be withdrawn as soon as the VRA comes back on stream. So it doesn't make much sense in commercial terms, as potential losses from unsold stock might well cancel out any benefits from not paying BBFC classification fees.
julianw
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#89 Post by julianw »

Anyone know how this change will affect the importation of dvds from Europe. Have been selling arthouse/European films for over 20 years and have alway dreamed of being able to sell any dvd imported from Europe in the UK in the same way as books. Will this be possible?

Also if they amend the system (which I always thought contravened European law of free movement of goods within the union) it would be good if they accepted age classifications from other European Countries, even if this is only for classifications under the age of say 15. This would still make a large number of films accessible for importation.
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#90 Post by MichaelB »

julianw wrote:Anyone know how this change will affect the importation of dvds from Europe. Have been selling arthouse/European films for over 20 years and have alway dreamed of being able to sell any dvd imported from Europe in the UK in the same way as books. Will this be possible?
It already is possible to sell imported DVDs in Britain, provided they qualify for BBFC exemption - documentaries, music videos and the like. Even the big retailers like HMV have plenty of non-UK DVDs lurking on their shelves, often without any warning that they're NTSC.
Also if they amend the system (which I always thought contravened European law of free movement of goods within the union) it would be good if they accepted age classifications from other European Countries, even if this is only for classifications under the age of say 15. This would still make a large number of films accessible for importation.
As I said above, and elsewhere on many occasions, I've been very curious indeed for a very long time about how the VRA was compatible with the European single market, as I understood that free movement of goods and services was pretty much a fundamental principle. And it's certainly possible to buy British DVDs, perfectly legally, in numerous retailers in other EU countries, just as it's possible to buy imported books, CDs and all manner of other notionally copyrighted goods in Britain.

Granted, the VRA was passed before the Single European Act was signed, but that presumably won't apply to the reassessed version, which for obvious legal reasons will have to take EU directives into account. Or is there some kind of formal EU exemption that applies to certain types of recorded media? (If there isn't, this could be a very interesting process!)
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#91 Post by peerpee »

If they have any sense, the EU will point out that British firms are at a commercial disadvantage to others in Europe by being forced to pay to have their films certificated, and they will level the playing field by making it opt-in.

Much like they did with the TV Licence, when the draconian small print had to be rewritten a few years ago.
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#92 Post by MichaelB »

peerpee wrote:If they have any sense, the EU will point out that British firms are at a commercial disadvantage to others in Europe by being forced to pay to have their films certificated, and they will level the playing field by making it opt-in.
Which I assume you'd be happy with?

I certainly would: I think abolishing the BBFC is a non-starter, as the majors would simply create something similar, just as they created the BBFC in the first place because they didn't want to have to deal with the caprices of individual local authorities. And as a parent, I can absolutely see the benefit of a universally-recognised and generally highly workable classification system.

But my major objection to the VRA was that by making BBFC classification compulsory for video (which it never was for theatrical screenings, and indeed still isn't) it would end up clobbering smaller independent distributors by passing on disproportionately greater costs - BBFC classification is a minuscule part of the marketing budget for a Harry Potter blockbuster, but it's a pretty big deal for a smaller concern, especially if there's lots of material on the release.
julianw
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#93 Post by julianw »

MichaelB wrote:
julianw wrote:Anyone know how this change will affect the importation of dvds from Europe. Have been selling arthouse/European films for over 20 years and have alway dreamed of being able to sell any dvd imported from Europe in the UK in the same way as books. Will this be possible?
It already is possible to sell imported DVDs in Britain, provided they qualify for BBFC exemption - documentaries, music videos and the like. Even the big retailers like HMV have plenty of non-UK DVDs lurking on their shelves, often without any warning that they're NTSC.

Yes I know documentaries are exempt, I mean feature films. Films that I have been asked for in the past 6 weeks, Teufels General, Weisse Rose, Claires Knee, Forbidden Games, Manner, Cria Cuervos, Ay Carmela, Los Santos Inocentes, Heimat One, Eternity and a Day, Starmaker, Lost Honour of Katherian Blum( Blue Ray), Sonnenallee and Die bleierne Zeit . In an ideal world I would order them from abroad for a customer, just as I would with a book. Just a shame that UK law forbids this.
Also if they amend the system (which I always thought contravened European law of free movement of goods within the union) it would be good if they accepted age classifications from other European Countries, even if this is only for classifications under the age of say 15. This would still make a large number of films accessible for importation.
As I said above, and elsewhere on many occasions, I've been very curious indeed for a very long time about how the VRA was compatible with the European single market, as I understood that free movement of goods and services was pretty much a fundamental principle. And it's certainly possible to buy British DVDs, perfectly legally, in numerous retailers in other EU countries, just as it's possible to buy imported books, CDs and all manner of other notionally copyrighted goods in Britain.

Granted, the VRA was passed before the Single European Act was signed, but that presumably won't apply to the reassessed version, which for obvious legal reasons will have to take EU directives into account. Or is there some kind of formal EU exemption that applies to certain types of recorded media? (If there isn't, this could be a very interesting process!)
It seems that two EU law apply. One is free movement to goods, the other it an opt out to protect interests in a particular country. (I.e. Video rating system to protect children)
peerpee
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#94 Post by peerpee »

MichaelB wrote:
peerpee wrote:If they have any sense, the EU will point out that British firms are at a commercial disadvantage to others in Europe by being forced to pay to have their films certificated, and they will level the playing field by making it opt-in.
Which I assume you'd be happy with?

I certainly would: I think abolishing the BBFC is a non-starter, as the majors would simply create something similar, just as they created the BBFC in the first place because they didn't want to have to deal with the caprices of individual local authorities. And as a parent, I can absolutely see the benefit of a universally-recognised and generally highly workable classification system.

But my major objection to the VRA was that by making BBFC classification compulsory for video (which it never was for theatrical screenings, and indeed still isn't) it would end up clobbering smaller independent distributors by passing on disproportionately greater costs - BBFC classification is a minuscule part of the marketing budget for a Harry Potter blockbuster, but it's a pretty big deal for a smaller concern, especially if there's lots of material on the release.

An opt-in system, like America, would be ideal for all concerned. I'd love not to have to deal with the BBFC, I'd love not to have their ugly logos all over our packaging, and I'd love to be able to spend the £1,000 per title on the actual disc production instead.
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#95 Post by MichaelB »

julianw wrote:Yes I know documentaries are exempt, I mean feature films. Films that I have been asked for in the past 6 weeks, Teufels General, Weisse Rose, Claires Knee, Forbidden Games, Manner, Cria Cuervos, Ay Carmela, Los Santos Inocentes, Heimat One, Eternity and a Day, Starmaker, Lost Honour of Katherian Blum( Blue Ray), Sonnenallee and Die bleierne Zeit .
I'm fully aware of that - I'm just pointing out that it is perfectly possible, and presumably legal (I'd be surprised if HMV did it otherwise) to sell imported DVDs in Britain provided there are no BBFC issues. So it seems pretty clear that it's purely the VRA that's preventing this, not some other protectionist legislation.
It seems that two EU law apply. One is free movement to goods, the other it an opt out to protect interests in a particular country. (I.e. Video rating system to protect children)
It certainly seems that way, but is this explicitly enshrined in EU legislation? I know plenty of other countries have their own classification systems, but they seem to have no problem selling foreign-label DVDs alongside their own national product, and I'm assuming that this isn't down to an outbreak of continent-wide mass lawlessness. So I'm guessing not, but my ignorance of EU law is pretty close to total, so I'd love to hear an expert view on this.
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#96 Post by julianw »

According to the internet!


Free movement of trade are covered by -

Article 28 EC reflects the obligation to respect the principles of non-discrimination and of mutual recognition of products lawfully manufactured and marketed in other member States, as well as the principle of ensuring free access of Community products to national markets


Article 90 ECT is another provision encouraging the free movement of goods by prohibiting the use or implementation of discriminatory taxation. Article 90, which is directly effective, states that "no Member State shall impose, directly or indirectly, on the products of other Member States any internal taxation… in excess of that imposed… on similar domestic products" and also forbade the imposition "on products of other Member States any internal taxation of such a nature as to afford indirect protection to other products.

Age classification restrictions seem to be allowed under Article 30

Article 30 ECT allows Member States to take measures having an effect equivalent to quantitative restrictions when these are justified by general, non-economic considerations (public morality, public policy or public security, the protection of health and life of humans, animals or plants, the protection of national treasures and the protection of industrial and commercial property).


However a thought on the public morality defence for classification. It seems that all other EU countries have age classifications on their products and I am sure that they roughly conform to our rating system. So not sure why they have to be reclassified again in the UK to protect our morals. It might be that when the UK video act was passed many years ago there was a big gulf in what was available and accepted in the rest of Europe was not acceptable in the UK. However I am sure that we have now caught up with continental Europe and the internet seems to have made this type of moral control almost impossible.

Maybe the battleground of moral standards is no longer on dvd but is increasingly being fought on internet contents.
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#97 Post by MichaelB »

Excellent piece by longstanding anti-VRA campaigner Julian Petley here.
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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#98 Post by MichaelB »

julianw wrote:Article 30 ECT allows Member States to take measures having an effect equivalent to quantitative restrictions when these are justified by general, non-economic considerations (public morality, public policy or public security, the protection of health and life of humans, animals or plants, the protection of national treasures and the protection of industrial and commercial property).

However a thought on the public morality defence for classification. It seems that all other EU countries have age classifications on their products and I am sure that they roughly conform to our rating system.
Italy, Hungary and Poland definitely have video classification systems, and I'm sure the same is true of most other European countries. But I'm not aware of any legal barriers to selling imports.
So not sure why they have to be reclassified again in the UK to protect our morals. It might be that when the UK video act was passed many years ago there was a big gulf in what was available and accepted in the rest of Europe was not acceptable in the UK.
Former BBFC director James Ferman made that point on many occasions, and to a certain extent it's true - swearing is a major classification issue in Britain, but I understand it's largely irrelevant in Ireland. Conversely, films that get 15s for sex/violence in Britain get 18s in Ireland and passed for universal exhibition in France.
However I am sure that we have now caught up with continental Europe and the internet seems to have made this type of moral control almost impossible.
Indeed, which I suspect is one of the reasons why the BBFC has liberalised so much over the last ten years that it's finally become more or less what it claimed to be from the start - a classification rather than a censorship body. Realistically, the market is going to become increasingly global, which is why trade restrictions like BBFC classification are going to be harder and harder to justify - at least on a compulsory level.

Granted, there are other legal issues that come into play where imports are concerned, such as copyright - but do publishers of books and CDs feel threatened by importing? Presumably not, because their own products aren't hobbled at the production stage.
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#99 Post by peerpee »

Oh yes, the internet has rendered them completely ineffectual and toothless. Hurrah!
julianw
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#100 Post by julianw »

Italy, Hungary and Poland definitely have video classification systems, and I'm sure the same is true of most other European countries. But I'm not aware of any legal barriers to selling imports.
It was illegal to sell any imported dvd in the UK without a BBFC age classification, except if the classification was E (Exempt - some documentaries, music fitness dvds etc)

Granted, there are other legal issues that come into play where imports are concerned, such as copyright - but do publishers of books and CDs feel threatened by importing? Presumably not, because their own products aren't hobbled at the production stage.

Book publishers used to divide up the English speaking world for copyright. The USA was one zone. The UK and Commonwealth another. However they have long given up trying to defend this system and they now write contracts with World English Language rights.
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