2000s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 2)

An ongoing project to survey the best films of individual decades, genres, and filmmakers
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John Cope
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#76 Post by John Cope »

reno dakota wrote: The Best of Youth (Giordana, 2003) – An incredibly absorbing family drama spanning nearly 40 years. It is six hours long, yes, but you’ll hardly care about that once you reach its emotional powerhouse of a conclusion.
I hate to admit it but I honestly can't remember the conclusion at all. Once again though I mark that down more to my indifference to novelistic cinema than any other factor.

So, no one has mentioned Sokurov yet? I assume Russian Ark will make the list but I think I actually prefer both The Sun and Father and Son.

A few more that slipped by me earlier and that I haven't seen mentioned here yet: Gerry, Auto Focus, Timecode, Campion's In the Cut, Altman's The Company (his best this decade by far, imo) and, finally, Henry Bean's simply awe inspiring The Believer, with a performance of equal magnitude by Ryan Gosling. That last one will undoubtedly make my top five.
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GringoTex
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:57 am

Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#77 Post by GringoTex »

zedz wrote: If you want to reconcile the Pialat craving with the 00s theme, you could do much worse than Joachim Lafosse's Private Property.
Great. Added to the netflix queue.
zedz wrote: Cache is a fine place to start (and maybe finish) with Haneke. It's probably his most accessible and popular film, and I'm sure you've seen what he's about. I like some of his work for its formal qualities and despite Haneke's modishly cryptic message-mongering (for masochistic audiences who like their messages delivered in tiny print on the side of a poison pill), but I certainly sympathise with your aversion and I don't think it's anything to do with this particular film.

Apologies for my initial knee-jerk post, but I was utterly repulsed by the film immediately after finishing it. In comparing him to Spielberg, I meant he uses an almost frighteningly effective and polished technique for the purposes of smug, moralizing bourgeoisie navel-gazing. The idea that the ethnic serving classes are rendered suicides or sociopaths by the thoughtlessness of their masters is insulting.
zedz wrote: Glad you appreciated Tsai. Your next stop should probably be Goodbye, Dragon Inn.
I plan to watch all the Tsai I can get ahold of.
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Gropius
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:47 pm

Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#78 Post by Gropius »

As John mentioned Timecode above, one thing that will certainly be making my list is the better (IMHO) film that came after it, Hotel. This is a guilty pleasure of sorts: Mike Figgis's second attempt at a roaming split-screen digital extravaganza finds a film crew (meta-points) trying to make a Dogme-style production of a Jacobean tragedy (Webster's The Duchess of Malfi, a play dearer to my heart than most of Shakespeare) in Venice. It's full of shameless mugging from Hollywood types trying their hand at improv (Salma Hayek, David Schwimmer, etc.), and Rhys Ifans doing his angry Welshman, but one doesn't really go to this for the acting, except for the glorious Julian Sands in a small role as a tour guide, who I like to think is a reprise of his Yves Cloquet from Cronenberg's Naked Lunch.

It is probable that most will hate this, actually (current IMDB rating 4.6, with plenty of outraged reviews). My defence of it is based on a general preference for atmosphere and setting over plot and 'good' acting (and this film has atmosphere, however intermittently ridiculous), and an enthusiasm for anyone trying new visual experiments (the four-way split-screen points to a future of even more fragmented frames). However, I haven't actually seen it for some six years (was there really a subplot about cannibalism involving John Malkovich?), and am afraid to go back to it in case the original ambiance has worn off.
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LQ
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#79 Post by LQ »

...Will anyone be joining me in adding Zoolander somewhere on their list? I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I love it so much but I think it is an excellent comedy, and far less stupid than it lets on. The inspired non-sequiturs, exuberant silliness, and the hilarious performances (especially Will Ferrell's) almost bring me to tears from laughing so hard every time I see it. I don't think I've laughed at a Will Ferrell performance since, but he is terrific as the villainous Mugatu.
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denti alligator
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#80 Post by denti alligator »

Gropius wrote:(Webster's The Duchess of Malfi, a play dearer to my heart than most of Shakespeare)
OT: did you see that the Arden Shakespeare has branched out to Early Modern Drama with The Duchess being their first title? Good news. I hope Bartholomew Fair is next!
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Murdoch
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#81 Post by Murdoch »

Question about eligibility: would the web series Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-Long Blog be eligible? (Waits for crickets, then laughter, prepares noose)
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knives
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#82 Post by knives »

I've been thinking the same thing too. I assume that since it's on DVD and wasn't part of a teevee show it should be eligible.
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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#83 Post by swo17 »

Netflix calls it an "online miniseries." So I say count it.

Also, in case my post a page ago was taken for a joke, I must ask again, what about K Street? I haven't seen it yet (planning to) but I think it brings up an interesting gray area and I want to know if people think it should be eligible.

For: per my understanding, directed with a singular vision by an auteur (Soderbergh); at 10 episodes and about 5 hours in total, it could be considered like a miniseries.

Against: I believe this may have been envisioned as an ongoing series. If it had gone on to more than one season, it would be clear that it was not eligible. But since it only lasted one, it seems like it could go either way.
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souvenir
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#84 Post by souvenir »

Are Keyboard Cat videos on YouTube eligible?
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LQ
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#85 Post by LQ »

If so, screw Punch-Drunk Love... :wink:
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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#86 Post by zedz »

swo17 wrote:Netflix calls it an "online miniseries." So I say count it.

Also, in case my post a page ago was taken for a joke, I must ask again, what about K Street? I haven't seen it yet (planning to) but I think it brings up an interesting gray area and I want to know if people think it should be eligible.

For: per my understanding, directed with a singular vision by an auteur (Soderbergh); at 10 episodes and about 5 hours in total, it could be considered like a miniseries.

Against: I believe this may have been envisioned as an ongoing series. If it had gone on to more than one season, it would be clear that it was not eligible. But since it only lasted one, it seems like it could go either way.
A mini-series is not the same thing as a series that only lasted one season (or I could have voted for The Day Today in the 90s). And "directed with a singular vision by an auteur" does not = a film (and how!)

There will be lots of great TV series / episodes that aren't eligible, but there are also heaps of great 00s novels and albums that aren't eligible as well. If anybody can solve the inherent problems with a television vote (e.g. episode vs. season vs. series), they could organise a separate list.

But aren't there plenty of actual films made in the decade to vote for? My understanding was that the inclusion of television in the first place was intended to allow for the inclusion of works that most people had seen as film rather than on television (e.g. Decalogue, Berlin Alexanderplatz, Elephant, The Kingdom). All of this is academic, anyway, unless there are large numbers of people clamouring to vote for any of the suggested titles .

EDIT: Oh, and I'd say that YouTube videos are excluded as well, on the similar grounds that they're straying far from the original purpose of the project - even though there may be some great stuff there and an enterprising soul could organize a 'My Favourite YouTube Videos LOL' vote.
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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#87 Post by swo17 »

So it sounds like the deciding factor is whether K Street was originally envisioned to stop after 10 episodes, or whether it was given the axe. I don't actually know which is the case. Anyone?

P.S. I promise this is the last time I will bring this up. 8-[
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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#88 Post by zedz »

swo17 wrote:So it sounds like the deciding factor is whether K Street was originally envisioned to stop after 10 episodes, or whether it was given the axe. I don't actually know which is the case. Anyone?

P.S. I promise this is the last time I will bring this up. 8-[
Shouldn't you decide whether or not you want to vote for it first? (And this is just the kind of having-to-hunt-down-studio-records-to-determine-eligibility-for-an-internet-forum-poll litigation I really want to avoid! At least it's better than the having-to-contact-dead-director-through-ouija-board brand of litigation that sometimes prevails around here!)
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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#89 Post by swo17 »

Yes, sorry :oops:
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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#90 Post by zedz »

swo17 wrote:Sorry :oops:
You are forgiven!

From past experience, hardly any of these disputed cases end up figuring in the final vote in any meaningful way, so it's likely to end up wasting energy that could be better used catching up with five-hour Uzbek yak-herding documentaries.

But do watch K Street, by all means, yaks or no yaks!
mikeohhh
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:22 am

Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#91 Post by mikeohhh »

reno dakota wrote: And my swapsie for this round, The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada (Jones, 2005) – If you’re a fan of Cormac McCarthy, then be sure not to miss this one. It is certainly one of the most striking films I’ve seen about male friendship, loyalty and grief, and it is immensely entertaining as well.
D'oh, this was going to be my swapsie! Now I need a new one. I think Estrada's greatest strength is in re-staging the western genre and its questions about borders and the "others" that exist behind those lines in the era of Lou Dobbs and the Minutemen (not the band).

Along those lines, it's a jumbled mess of an ensemble picture, but buried inside Linklater's Fast Food Nation is perhaps the strongest portrayal of "undocumented workers" I've seen, certainly a cut above those unbelievably saintly El Norte kids (I think I actually had this on my '80s list :oops: ). If any of the other threads in this picture worked this well, it would make my list, but as it is, ehh. Still worth checking out however. I think Catalina Sandino Morena is so wonderful and I hope she gets more work in Hollywood or elsewhere (she seems to be stuck in a "Spanish-speaking role in American film" niche that she should break out of: the Latina Zhang Ziyi!)
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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#92 Post by zedz »

mikeohhh wrote: I think Catalina Sandino Morena is so wonderful and I hope she gets more work in Hollywood or elsewhere (she seems to be stuck in a "Spanish-speaking role in American film" niche that she should break out of: the Latina Zhang Ziyi!)
Time for a plug for Maria Full of Grace, in which she is really great. Not sure how the film as a whole has held up, as its impact was due a lot to its slap-in-the-face storyline and her performance.

Another indie that was really carried by its performances for me was Ira Sachs' 40 Shades of Blue. The basic story of this relationship drama is almost generic, but it's got a great backdrop (the Memphis music biz) and Rip Torn and Dina Korzun are blindingly good. This made my list last time and might again if it's held up.

And a film that's really harrowing, and which I haven't managed to dislodge from my head (and which is available in R1, I discover), is Balabanov's Cargo 200, which goes even darker and deeper than Lilya-4-Ever into similar territory while also bringing potent historical and contemporary political resonance into the picture. The film continually flirts with turning into a genre piece (thriller, horror, political expose?) but never reconciles itself to any one of those options, so there's something that's always unsettled and unpredictable about it.
jonp72
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#93 Post by jonp72 »

zedz wrote:
GringoTex wrote: Cache - My first Haneke film and I don't want to see another. He's the Spielberg of current continental European art cinema. He crawls up his own asshole just to take a sniff. I need to go watch a Pialat, any Pialat, to cleanse my palate.
If you want to reconcile the Pialat craving with the 00s theme, you could do much worse than Joachim Lafosse's Private Property. He's clearly a Pialat disciple (like so many of the most interesting French / Belgian filmmakers of the decade), but he handles the camera quite differently, and getting Pialat-level performances in any decade is not a talent to be sniffed at.

Cache is a fine place to start (and maybe finish) with Haneke. It's probably his most accessible and popular film, and I'm sure you've seen what he's about. I like some of his work for its formal qualities and despite Haneke's modishly cryptic message-mongering (for masochistic audiences who like their messages delivered in tiny print on the side of a poison pill), but I certainly sympathise with your aversion and I don't think it's anything to do with this particular film.
As for my experience with Haneke, I was underwhelmed by all the distancing devices used in the original version of Funny Games, but Cache will probably be on my list. I saw it as an incisive j'accuse aimed at all the leftish members of the May-of-'68 generation who now all go secretly vote for Sarkozy. The formally cryptic properties worked for me too, because I saw it as a twist on the husband-avenges-his-family revenge film genre, but in this case, the husband is chasing phantoms of his own hypocrisy.
jonp72
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#94 Post by jonp72 »

Apropos of nothing, I also wanted to put a good word in for some of the films that will probably be on me list.

Head-On (Fatih Akin, 2004) For me, this film was a little like watching Ali: Fear Eats the Soul, if it had been rewritten as a tragedy from the Turk's point of view. The highlight for me was the naturalistic, emotion-laden performances by the two leads, Birol Unel and Sibel Kikilli. In most films, you're lucky if you have one performer who's working emotionally without a net, a la Marlon Brando in Last Tango in Paris, but in this film, you have two star-crossed "lovers" (sort of) who fit that description.

Los Angeles Plays Itself (Thom Andersen, 2003) This is an amazing "essay film" that uses clips from cinematic depictions of Los Angeles (ranging from the silent era to today) to show how the movies both represent and misrepresent life in the City of Angels. Topics range from modernist architecture to trolley cars to how Jack Webb's Dragnet is like Bresson.

Moolaade (Ousmane Sembene, 2004) I'm a big fan of Ousmane Sembene, but this story about how a woman in an African village rebels against the reintroduction of female circumcision may be my favorite work of his yet. A fitting final film for a great director.

I'm not sure how the swapsies work, but I'm thinking of having Moolaade as my swapsie. In addition, if anybody's interested in seeing Los Angeles Plays Itself, please PM me, and I might know where you can get a copy.
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knives
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#95 Post by knives »

I Suppose I should throw the Green Butchers out there (swapsie?). Admittedly it's not the most artistic film of the decade, but the performances and humor is some of the best in recent memory. My top comedy of the decade. It's worth the watch just for Mikkelsen's creepy disgusting performance as a sweaty Walken type.
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colinr0380
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#96 Post by colinr0380 »

Gropius wrote:As John mentioned Timecode above, one thing that will certainly be making my list is the better (IMHO) film that came after it, Hotel. This is a guilty pleasure of sorts: Mike Figgis's second attempt at a roaming split-screen digital extravaganza finds a film crew (meta-points) trying to make a Dogme-style production of a Jacobean tragedy (Webster's The Duchess of Malfi, a play dearer to my heart than most of Shakespeare) in Venice. It's full of shameless mugging from Hollywood types trying their hand at improv (Salma Hayek, David Schwimmer, etc.), and Rhys Ifans doing his angry Welshman, but one doesn't really go to this for the acting, except for the glorious Julian Sands in a small role as a tour guide, who I like to think is a reprise of his Yves Cloquet from Cronenberg's Naked Lunch.

It is probable that most will hate this, actually (current IMDB rating 4.6, with plenty of outraged reviews). My defence of it is based on a general preference for atmosphere and setting over plot and 'good' acting (and this film has atmosphere, however intermittently ridiculous), and an enthusiasm for anyone trying new visual experiments (the four-way split-screen points to a future of even more fragmented frames). However, I haven't actually seen it for some six years (was there really a subplot about cannibalism involving John Malkovich?), and am afraid to go back to it in case the original ambiance has worn off.
While I agree totally with Timecode, I recently sought out Hotel and was left cold by it. I liked the idea but felt it dropped into indulgence and incoherence after a relatively strong beginning (I thought the best part was the pre-credit sequence of Malkovich booking in to the hotel while being eyed up by the staff (including Danny Huston as the clerk), followed by the shock cut to the underground dinner scene where the participants have a very refined conversation all the time passing condiments and meat through the metal bars to Malkovich sitting caged at one end, but seemingly not bothered by his confinement!)

It is certainly a film with many bizarre moments (Schwimmer and Ifans growling at each other, with Hayek giving it a try herself! The Burt Reynolds cameo. The ending which I must admit went inconclusively over my head!), but I did feel that the cutting to the performance of Duchess of Malfi in widescreen to signify it as the play within the film, as opposed to times when the characters are in period dress but the emphasis is more on the filmmaking around the action of the play, was good. I also liked some of the splitscreen sequences though they felt far less motivated, and more arbitrary, than in Timecode - while some worked well to show simultaneous actions occuring in different parts of the Hotel that commented on each other by their pairing together (i.e. the producer's relationship with his wife contrasted with the relationship between the vampiric staff, and the way we follow a plate of tainted food from kitchen creation to the room housing the film crew), sometimes the choice to go into multiple screens felt rather arbitrary and I wasn't exactly sure what the need for such a technique at a particular moment was for, apart from just the use of the technique itself.

There was one sequence near the beginning which I thought was great though which involved nice, fluid seques from groups of characters in the Piazza getting ready for a performance in period garb among the crowds of tourists ("use the crowd! Use the pigeons!"). Ifans plays a parody of a horrible producer, driving one actress to tears and making crude suggestions to the actors to 'inform' their performance. He seems as single minded and purposeful in his approach to the character in the play as Sands' tour guide seems when he passes by the filmmakers (shouting out "the Duchess of Malfi was a slut!"). There is then a nice move into a couple of sequences from the play where the strange idea of period dress against a contemporary crowd actually seems to work, especially when Burrows wanders through the Piazza in her finery. Then there is another shift of tone which follows a passing lady up to the producer's office, where she 'performs' for him while he takes telephone calls, and she herself takes a call from a mysterious stranger, who could be a vampire and also seems to be a hitman with a target in Ifans himself. In this scene I think the film works well and has a bracing kind of fluidity to the action, but otherwise everything felt forced through to me. Saffron Burrows impressed me again after her role in Timecode (though Miss Julie was her best Figgis role, probably because it was her biggest), but she has little to do outside of her Duchess incarnation as the other more powerful and flamboyant personalities take over the verite portions. Though I wonder if that is intended, in order to show that the actress she is playing is separate from the more petty squabbles surrounding the production, similar to the way that her character in Timecode seems apart from the rest of the action to a certain extent?

In the end I felt it was a series of semi-ideas in search of a coherent story. I do not really regret seeing it, but I would likely recommend to others only with caveats, and suggest that ,Timecode should be seen first just to see if they will be interested in that kind of semi-improvised filmmaking, just without even the slight threads of plots that ran through that earlier film. Though I am not familiar with the Duchess of Malfi, which might have been an impediment. I would be very interested Gropius to see how well you feel it adapted the play? Are there aspects of the film that would have been richer from a good understanding of the play?

I'm glad to see though that even this film will have its supporters in the project! It just adds to the eclecticism!

Oh and Mark Kermode fans: since he loves Jason Isaacs (who departs the filming early, to the jealousy of much of the rest of the production, because he's landed a big film role on a Ridley Scott picture!) and cannot stand Julian Sands, I wonder how he would judge this film? Perhaps someone should message him to find out!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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foggy eyes
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#97 Post by foggy eyes »

jonp72 wrote:Los Angeles Plays Itself (Thom Andersen, 2003) This is an amazing "essay film" that uses clips from cinematic depictions of Los Angeles (ranging from the silent era to today) to show how the movies both represent and misrepresent life in the City of Angels. Topics range from modernist architecture to trolley cars to how Jack Webb's Dragnet is like Bresson.
This really is a masterpiece of audio-visual film criticism, and everybody should do their best to track it down. Yes also to the earlier suggestions of The Sun, The Company, Demonlover, L'Intrus, etc.

A few non-obscure mega-essentials:

- Honor de cavalleria / El cant dels ocells* (Serra)
- La libertad / Los muertos (Alonso) + Fantasma immediately after Tsai's Goodbye, Dragon Inn
- Miami Vice (Mann)
- In Vanda's Room / Colossal Youth (Costa)

*not on DVD, but drop me a line if you're desperate.

There's so many great films this decade that I'll have to come back with a longer list - we haven't even scratched the surface in this thread yet!
Last edited by foggy eyes on Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Awesome Welles
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#98 Post by Awesome Welles »

swo17 wrote:So it sounds like the deciding factor is whether K Street was originally envisioned to stop after 10 episodes, or whether it was given the axe. I don't actually know which is the case. Anyone?
Apologies for rehashing this but has anyone actually seen it? I am also very curious especially when discussing Out 1 with Geoff Andrew he joked that he would love to show it again as a double bill with K Street which he said in some strange ways was remarkably similar to the Rivette, which of course had my interest piqued given the high praise for Out 1 around these parts.
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Camera Obscura
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#99 Post by Camera Obscura »

jonp72 wrote:Apropos of nothing, I also wanted to put a good word in for some of the films that will probably be on me list.

Head-On (Fatih Akin, 2004) For me, this film was a little like watching Ali: Fear Eats the Soul, if it had been rewritten as a tragedy from the Turk's point of view. The highlight for me was the naturalistic, emotion-laden performances by the two leads, Birol Unel and Sibel Kikilli. In most films, you're lucky if you have one performer who's working emotionally without a net, a la Marlon Brando in Last Tango in Paris, but in this film, you have two star-crossed "lovers" (sort of) who fit that description.

Los Angeles Plays Itself (Thom Andersen, 2003) This is an amazing "essay film" that uses clips from cinematic depictions of Los Angeles (ranging from the silent era to today) to show how the movies both represent and misrepresent life in the City of Angels. Topics range from modernist architecture to trolley cars to how Jack Webb's Dragnet is like Bresson.
Good call! I planned on watching Los Angeles Plays Itself for ages.

Head-On is a potential candidate on my list as well, but the 'best' German film of the 21th century so far is Die Unberührbare (Oskar Roehler, 2000). Incidentally, the German DVD has English subs as well, so no excuses for not seeing this (actually, I have no idea if this got an R1-release).
Last edited by Camera Obscura on Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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anvilscepe
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#100 Post by anvilscepe »

i'll join in on the fun.

Although an extremely polarizing figure, let us not forget Larry Clark’s finest cinematic achievement Bully. The acting is superb as is the gut wrenching authenticity evoked throughout the film. Nick Stahl couldn’t be any scarier. This will place high on my list. Any other admirers?

Another film that will place high on my list is Wet Hot American Summer. I know there are many Stella/State fans on this board. Let’s all rally behind this pitch perfect comedy.
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