Is it dusk or dawn at the ending? I'd say dusk. That makes most sense (at least temporally, as Barmy says).
david hare wrote:No it doesn't. For one thing the BoA signage is framed within red and Blue, and the color repetition is only repeated when Daria and Mark return to the "surface" and he's confronted by the cops. At which point Antonioni marks red as the domninant color.
I think A is very precise with the color signalling, paricularly in relation to Mark's scenes in the movie.
I'm not sure I fully understand you but I agree that colours ar important in ZP, and I like Antonioni's use of colour in this film. It's been a while since I read Arrowsmiths Antonioni book, but I think he argued, that the characters in ZP (maybe just Mark - I don't remember) were driven or motivated by the colours present in the scenes rather than by the actions within the narrative.
But I still don't think the colours are more important than 'all the other things' in the movie. The framing of images is very precise in Antonioni's films, as are cameramovements - and montage. And speaking of billboards - these certainly play a role on a thematic level in ZP - often in connection with money.
I like the idea that the final image references the BoA billboard because the film's ending comes just after Daria has seen "the fall" of capitalism. And then we're brutally pulled back to reality - and to capitalism: "The things you can depend on - BoA". Interpreted this way it's a very pointed almost ironic or antithetical ending...
I'd like to point out that based on DVD Beaver's frame grabs, the new Canadian DVD leans toward the "cool" side of the spectrum. Assuming the frame grabs are accurate, this creates a big problem with the "love-in" scene. If you've ever been to the actual Zabriskie Point in Death Valley, the badlands have decided gold and brown hues. It's their most notable feature, and of course the nude bodies look beautiful rolling around in the golden-hued dust.
That scene looks way too blue in the Canadian release--it misses the point of why Antonioni shot the scene there. The French DVD has better color, sorry to say. That is, assuming the frame grabs are accurate and my LCD monitor isn't off, which I don't think it is.
Thank God I still have that letterboxed laserdisc!
I'd like to point out that the DVD in my possession was sent from the United States and has no bi-lingual packaging (as product sold in Canada invariably does). So I don't believe this is a 'Canadian DVD' per-se. I expect it will be the only edition sold in Region 1's thru 4.
and...
Since my uncle did a 5-year stint (for mismatched frame grabs) and he was in the same block as Frechette - he often commented on his decided paleness (especially his 'buttocks'). So if flesh tones are anything to go by - the more orange/yellow/red French colors are less accurate, but the US release seems a bit green to me (something I didn't comment on).
Hmm, it's a difficult question, but if you take flesh tones as indication, then to me Halprin looks very definitely too pale in the US disc, especially in the third cap. The lovemaking scene in cap five looks as if these were two dead people, too.
I haven't seen the film for ages and then only on TV, but I remember it to be a highly psychedelic explosion of colours in many places, and in that respect the French disc looks far healthier to me. I suppose we're very close to the situation of the old Carlton AMOLAD vs the new Sony one. Which means, still no wholly satisfactory disc of "Zabriskie" out there;but now I'm really at a loss whether to pay about twice the price of the German/US disc for the French disc and get a non-anamorphic disc on top of it. Argh.
I'd like to point out that the DVD in my possession was sent from the United States and has no bi-lingual packaging (as product sold in Canada invariably does). So I don't believe this is a 'Canadian DVD' per-se. I expect it will be the only edition sold in Region 1's thru 4.
and...
Since my uncle did a 5-year stint (for mismatched frame grabs) and he was in the same block as Frechette - he often commented on his decided paleness (especially his 'buttocks'). So if flesh tones are anything to go by - the more orange/yellow/red French colors are less accurate, but the US release seems a bit green to me (something I didn't comment on).
I stand corrected re: "Canadian" vs. U.S. release of the DVD.
At any rate, it's possible that the color timing is fine on much (or most) of the U.S. transfer. Perhaps the colors are also a touch "hot" on the French transfer. I'm just arguing that the footage of Zabriskie Point specifically is too blue/green, based on the screen caps. Those badlands have a definite look that Antonioni and his cinematographer would have wanted to reflect in their film. It's an unforgettable location that people from around the world come to photograph. And the lovemaking couples have George Romero zombie-colored skin!
The French DVD may well be boosted. I have a photography question, though--would the strong sunlight in Southern California and Arizona produce a high degree of contrast between light and shadow?
Here's a cap from the laserdisc to match one of the frames Gary uses in his review/comparison:
Of course, the laserdisc lacks the sharpness of the DVDs and has more chroma noise. It matches the French DVD pretty closely, but I think it has an even more pronounced reddish undertone, at least in this shot. However, when I just looked the whole scene on the laserdisc I wanted to say, "That's Zabriskie Point!" The pronounced golden hues of the mud hills around the Zabriskie Point overlook seem about right, as does the overall color spectrum of the landscape. (I drive through Death Valley about once a year visiting family.)
Still, I need to see actual Region 1 DVD on my plasma screen when it gets released. Also, it would help to learn more about the restoration & the print used, what points of reference they used for the new video transfer, etc.
I'm curious about any extra footage on the new R1 Warner(?). According to DVDBeaver the French R2 Warner is 1:46:36 (4% PAL speedup), which in theory means 1:51:03 NTSC. The R1 Warner, however, is 1:53:36. There must be at least 2 minutes of extra footage - unless the trailer for some reason is included in the main feature's playing time?
jsteffe wrote:The French DVD may well be boosted. I have a photography question, though--would the strong sunlight in Southern California and Arizona produce a high degree of contrast between light and shadow?
Yes, if they shot in desert sunlight, probably cloudless, bright hot light.
david hare wrote:I thought the Warner France DVD was OK ( I bought it) but the caps confirm it looks "heavier" and probably boosted, as Gary said. THe R1-4 anamorphic looks better on primaries but I don't like the fleshtones at all.
True - those flesh tones look positively anaemic, while the primaries do look slightly improved...
As Martin says, there's still the extra 2 or so minutes to be accounted for... R1 USA scores on anamorphic transfer but is about 5/8 the bit rate of the French R2 letterbox (realise however that 100% of those bits are actual picture in anamorphic, but includes the black bars top and bottom in letterbox)...
I have the Warner Germany R2 anamorphic on order, and am waiting to see how that looks...
This a production still from Bruce Davidson of Magnum, which may give some idea of the correct colour grading...
For me the problem with the closing music is not so much the absence of the Floyd but rather the presence of that syrupy Orbison crap. But it's just 60 seconds of music at most and the Floyd version is just a reprise of music from the "blow-up" sequence.
The slight lack of detail in the laserdisc is actually what makes it so filmlike. And the colors seem perfect to me.
At some point I will check out the US and French DVDs to see how they compare.
The dude at the Vancouver specialty video shop where I bought this today confirmed that there is no Canadian release of this - this is the US release, which made it onto the shelves here ahead of the official date for no reason I can explain. I've only quickly looked it over, but the colours DO look wrong - too pale, too cool; the Orbison track is an offense and a disappointment; and the lack of any meaningful extras speaks volumes about WB's indifference to this release (or indeed to cinema): there is no commentary track, no interviews with "survivors," no inserted essay with any of the various fascinating stories that can be told about this film - there's just a trailer, which I haven't looked at yet. How can these indifferent corporate slouches do SO BAD A JOB in releasing a film so many people have been eagerly waiting for? This is such a disappointment that people should simply avoid buying it - it's the single worst presentation of a major piece of cinema that I'm aware of since Pontecorvo's BURN! came out a few years ago in the shortened, dubbed cut with the wrong aspect ratio...
Sigh... Please do report, folks, as soon as you know if the German version is any better...
Heheh. Sorry. Seriously: the final image of the proper cut - the one people want, the one Antonioni intended - has Daria drive away in silence, then a reprise of the Pink Floyd "explosion" music over the sunset. The Warner DVD starts the music earlier, of the sappiest and smarmiest sort - this studio-imposed Orbison song, instead of letting us sit for a minute with the image and then reaffirming the rage of the previous scene, as we stare into the setting sun. It takes a powerful final scene and transforms it into something quite embarrassing. It's only a couple of minutes - but it's AWFUL.
There supposedly was also talk of Antonioni shooting a plane carrying a banner that read "fuck you, America!" - or something very much to that effect - which I think was supposed to be seen the end of the film (something recounted in the very informative essays that accompany the 2CD version of the soundtrack, which also deals with the imposed closing song), but maybe someone else can say if that was ever actually shot or screened; my memory on this point ain't so good.
P.
Whoop: edited to add that there's good discussion of the plane stuff earlier in this thread, from kinjitsu. Again, I'm just bitching about the sappy song - I never expect to see this skywriting scene in any version of the film...
kinjitsu wrote:Probably a bit of gossip, rumor, trivia and/or hype, though I seem to recall something to that effect way back when.
Trivia from the Amazon VHS listing:
Michelangelo Antonioni's original ending was a shot of an airplane sky-writing the phrase "Fuck You, America," which was cut by MGM president Louis F. Polk along with numerous other scenes. Louis F. Polk was eventually replaced by James T. Aubrey, who had most of the cut footage restored, but without this final shot.
From a Senses of Cinema interview with Rolando Caputo of the Cinema Studies Program at Melbourne's LaTrobe University:
Saul Symonds: The first thing I wanted to ask you wasn't actually a question, it was more a point I wanted to clarify. I was reading about Zabriskie Point (1970) and this website said that the final scene was originally of a plane skywriting the words, "Fuck you America," and of course it said that the studio made him delete that. I was curious if you're able to verify this.
Rolando Caputo: I'm not sure about the skywriting, but I have heard people say that there was some variation regarding the ending. I believe that the issue was about the female character getting back into the car after the explosion. There was talk that Antonioni wanted to end with the explosion and leave it somewhat ambiguous whether it was a projection of her imagination or whether it had a real status to it. The shot of her getting back into the car makes it appear that it could only have been a fantasy projection of hers. The ambiguity has been removed. But this is pure speculation, I've seen no definitive evidence about alternative endings to the film.
Let me quote a passage from Arrowsmith's book The Poet of Images (1995) - but remember that this book was published posthumously (Arrowsmith died 1992) and contains unpublished essays or lectures probably written from the 1960's to 1980 (some of the texts may have been revised later). This passage is from the Zabriskie Point chapter, p. 142:
The last object to be exploded is, appropriately, a bookcase filled with books [...] These final images of Zabriskie Point are exquisitely beautiful, their images of disintegration as magnificent as the end of the world will probably be. Then the legend - THE END - and the screen goes black, black space, while the frightening music continues, and then stops.
Ted Perry - editor of the Arrowsmith book - adds a footnote to this passage:
Arrowsmith describes the ending as Antonioni intended it, ignoring the material (the Roy Orbison song heard as Daria drives away) that, against Antonioni's wishes, was tacked on by the producers, MGM, for the released vesion of the film. Later the false ending seems to have been removed; it is not on the videocassette available in the United States, for instance.
Antonioni filmed the drive away and sunset, so I question whether he "intended" the screen to go blank with the exploding books in the finished film. That might have been a better ending. Are people saying that MGM inserted the drive-away/sunset footage against Antonioni's will? Why MGM interfered in this whole "issue" is hard to fathom.
There was a lot of hassle and hostility to the filming of this project (even accusations of 'sex trafficking' over state lines, a skewed interpretation of the 'orgy' scene performed by trained dancers). There was doubling up on crew, Antonioni was not able to use his regular Italian crew alone (as on BLOW UP in London) and had to have a full American crew alongside any Italian imports... Needless to say they hardly understood what Antonioni was driving at, while the studio were pretty perplexed and puzzled by way it was going on... And while Daria was a sweetie, MARK was allied to some cult, and was not always in the sanest state of mind - he had history... There are several interesting accounts of the fraught production process, and how the film was perceived as an affront to prevailing moralities, and the way a nervous studio did not know how to handle it...
Instead of boo-hoo-hoo-ing in our consumer martyrdom over the egregious behavior that these corporate heads of state consistently display towards pioneering films like Blow-Up (bare bones DVD as well) and Zabriskie Point - both not coincidentally from maverick Antonioni - let's take matters into our own hands.
If the ZP Antonioni intended exists unadultered, visually-speaking, and our only grievance is with the contentious use of Orbison in the exit music, and we have a timeline from a bootleg verson and/or a script to work from instructing the use of Pink Floyd instead, it would be a simple matter to export the entire Warner Bros. DVD into an Adobe Premiere or Final Cut Pro editing suite, and simply amend the final minute or so of the film with the Pink Floyd track inserted in place of the Orbison. And if a few seconds of black leader film is called for, that's a simple task as well.
It's not like we're having to reconstruct Welles' "The Other Side of the Wind!"
If these pricks at WB and MGM don't give a damn about presenting these films as their makers intended, let's at least make an effort to plug the gaps when we have both the feasibility and resources to do it, as in the case of Zabriskie Point.
I'll update everyone on my attempt to patch up the missing Pink Floyd music, and restore it back into the final film.
James Aubrey was fucking around with everyones' movies but I assume that Zabriskie's negative was cut and cemented by late '69 when Aubrey became president of MGM before the U.S. release on February 9th, 1970.
I applaud Wittsdream for offering to make an alternate edition of the film. And I say that as a big fan of The Big O.
Just to be clear: there is a perfectly acceptable film print circulating with the proper music at the end. I've seen it about five times in as many years in Vancouver - twice at the VIFC, once at a Cinematheque Antonioni retrospective, and once at the same venue as part of the VIFF (in 2002? 2003?). Not sure if it's been exactly the same print each time, or if different prints have been through town, but each time it ended with the Pink Floyd reprise, not Orbison. So Warner brothers either chose not to release the correct version - they COULD have, but didn't have the guts, the taste, or the integrity to do so - or they were too lazy and indifferent to even educate themselves in this matter and discover that there are alternate cuts, one vastly preferred by cinephiles and Antonioni fans. THIS is what pisses me off - that great works of film art end up in the hands of careless, clueless corporate cretins - and this will continue to annoy me even if it's a fairly simple matter to mute the DVD at the appropriate moment and switch the audio to Floyd on the CD player (my lower-tech solution). I'm all for taking matters into ones own hands, and would hope that Wittsdream makes his "restored version" available to others - it's a fine idea - but Warner Brothers still needs to be publicly flogged for botching this. I'm not boo-hoo-hooing; I'm raving mad.
pemmican wrote:Just to be clear: there is a perfectly acceptable film print circulating with the proper music at the end.
I'll also testify to this; I saw the film at Le Champo in Paris a few months ago with the original, Orbison-free ending intact.
And it was great. I don't want no Roy spoilin' my joy.
