1990s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 2)

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Yojimbo
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:06 pm
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#276 Post by Yojimbo »

zedz wrote:
swo17 wrote:
zedz wrote:At least the current rules have the virtue of clarity (like the imdb rule - however dumb it gets, I'm grateful it's there).
At the risk of contradicting everything I've said previously, what about this to resolve all future disputes: if IMDb combines it, then it's one movie; otherwise, no. Then we have:

Berlin Alexanderplatz: 1 release
Dekalog: 1 release
Three Colors: 3 releases
Riget: 2 releases
Chacun son cinema: 1 release
Ivan the Terrible: 2 releases
and so on...
This makes sense to me - except for the breaking up of portmanteau films, which I think should remain an option. As far as I can remember, nobody has voted for something like Rogopag or Eros in their entirety, but plenty of people have voted for individual components of them. Also, imdb is completely inconsistent in this respect (e.g. Antoine et Colette is listed individually but La Ricotta is not; Terayama'sGrass Labyrinth gets its own entry but Borowczyk's L'Armoire, from the same film, doesn't).

The only other casualty will be a handful of two-parters (e.g. Ivan - but this is already problematic, as noted, and it straddles decades). The few genuinely problematic two-part films I've looked up (films shot as one and distributed as two - e.g. Bernard's Les Miserables and Shimizu's Four Seasons of Children) seem to be agglomerated by imdb anyway - at the moment. I can't think of any problem cases in the 80s and 90s (i.e. genuine two part films that hardly anybody would want to evaluate separately) to 'test' on imdb - any suggestions?
I think parts of a trilogy, or multi-parters, which are spread over a number of years, or decades, should be considered individually. Although Kieslowski's 'Colours' films are obviously part of a trilogy, they should be evaluated independently, as they were made in different styles, and genres. But at different times. And the director could not be considered to be the same at the time he was making each part of the trilogy.

In contrast 'Dekalog', the tv series, is definitely one project, although 'Love' and 'Killing' were expanded to feature length so those features should be considered separate.

Where the project was made at or about the same time, as Lucas Belvaux(?) trilogy which was made at or about the same time it should be considered as one film, as this was his intention, and it was a stylistic/genre exercise.

Kill Bill 1&2 was made at or about the same time, but they are two distinctly different type of film, - I much prefer Part 2, for example, - and I believe were always intended to be. So they should be considered as distinct films.

In conclusion, there are no hard and fast rules: you just have to consider each case on its merits
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swo17
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#277 Post by swo17 »

Well, my point was that we all need to be on the same page, and any grouping of films into one entity for whatever reason is going to be somewhat subjective, so let's just rely on the one definitive source, the same one we use for release years, even though it's not perfect. That way we can avoid lengthy discussions about technicalities re: what qualifies for the list (for which I am partly to blame) and get back to talking about the films themselves.
ineedyoubad
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#278 Post by ineedyoubad »

Here are some of films from `90, that will rank high on my list.

Strangers in good company ( 1991 ) - Cynthia Scott
Olivier, Olivier ( 1992 ) - Agnieszka Holland
Matinee ( 1993 ) - Joe Dante
The remains of the day ( 1993 ) - James ivory
Vanya on 42nd street ( 1994 ) - Louis Malle
Clockers ( 1995 ) - Spike Lee
American buffalo ( 1996 ) - Michael Corrente
Walking and talking ( 1996 ) - Nicole Holofcener
Oscar and Lucinda ( 1997 ) - Gillian Armstrong
The last days of disco ( 1998 ) - Whit Stillman
roujin
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:16 pm

Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#279 Post by roujin »

roujin wrote:Of course, I still need to see a hell of a lot more.
And maybe I am? Over the last couple of months, I've been catching up with some Hal Hartley films (the only 90s feature I haven't seen is The Book of Life but I'll be seeing that too). Trust is easily the best for me (and will probably be in my top 10 on my list). Simple Men, Amateur and Henry Fool have a chance of making the list for me as well. The last is probably the most ambitious/interesting but it doesn't feel as comfortable and as enjoyable as the other ones which are much more emotional to me (plus I can't make sense of the vomiting/shitting scene in that one). Surviving Desire and Flirt are interesting as well and they definitely benefit from Martin Donovan's presence. Flirt's concept is pretty interesting and I can't really find fault too much with it apart from that it feels so slight (the best thing about it is that it has Hal Hartley as Himself!).

Which of his shorts is worth watching? The Opera one has Shelley so I'll probably watch that. I know nothing of the other ones.
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Yojimbo
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#280 Post by Yojimbo »

ineedyoubad wrote:Here are some of films from `90, that will rank high on my list.
Vanya on 42nd street ( 1994 ) - Louis Malle
I was disappointed with 'Vanya', particularly after loving 'My Dinner With Andre'.
But, since you like 'Vanya', and perhaps Russian literature, you might like to keep an eye out for a Czech /(Slovak?) theatrical distillation of 'Karamazov', in the Malle 'Vanya' style which I enjoyed far more.
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knives
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#281 Post by knives »

Another one I just remembered is from the 90s, thought it was released in 2001, Lost Highway.
For me this is Lynch's finest. The surreal imagery to the wonderful acting from Pullman, Arquette, and of course Robert Blake (even though I suspect he didn't really need much to act out this particular part) seem to be the best of everyone involved.

On a similar note both Benny's Video and Funny Games I think deserve mention, if just for how disturbing they are. Ulrich Muhe's performance is the one thing that excels above all other from the recent remake. Funny Games especially deserves mention if just for the Sandwich making scene.

To prevent more of these random pop ups here's my top ten of the decade in no order:

Lost Highway
Barton Fink
Casino
The Fisher King
Unforgiven
Dark City
Titus
Ed Wood
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
PI
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zedz
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#282 Post by zedz »

knives wrote:To prevent more of these random pop ups here's my top ten of the decade in no order:

Lost Highway
Barton Fink
Casino
The Fisher King
Unforgiven
Dark City
Titus
Ed Wood
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
PI
You are aware that they also make films in other countries, aren't you? (Sorry, couldn't resist - [insert smiley here])
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swo17
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#283 Post by swo17 »

zedz wrote:You are aware that they also make films in other countries, aren't you? (Sorry, couldn't resist - [insert smiley here])
Sure, they make them, but they don't release them on R1 DVD, so they are inherently not as good. :wink:
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Murdoch
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#284 Post by Murdoch »

Currently this is my top five:

1. Chungking Express (1994) – Wong Kar-Wai
2. Crash (1996) – David Cronenberg
3. Time Regained (1999) – Raoul Ruiz
4. Joe vs. the Volcano (1990) – John Patrick Shanley
5. The Wind Will Carry Us (1999) – Abbas Kiarostami

I still want to see more Ruiz and Kiarostami before I make the ones listed as definites.

Time Regained is the only Ruiz I've seen from the 90s, any recommendations for others of his from this decade? After the four I've seen he seriously may becoming my favorite filmmaker.
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knives
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#285 Post by knives »

zedz wrote:
knives wrote:To prevent more of these random pop ups here's my top ten of the decade in no order:

Lost Highway
Barton Fink
Casino
The Fisher King
Unforgiven
Dark City
Titus
Ed Wood
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
PI
You are aware that they also make films in other countries, aren't you? (Sorry, couldn't resist - [insert smiley here])
I agree and to be honest outside of the first three I mentioned none of them deserve to be in an actual top ten of the decade, they're mostly pet films really. It just seems that with a few small exceptions, mostly meh stuff at that, I've seemed to have skipped over all foreign releases from the 90s.
swo17 wrote:Sure, they make them, but they don't release them on R1 DVD, so they are inherently not as good. :wink:
I know I need to get an all region PAL friendly player, just extraordinarily lazy on that front. Also isn't Lost Highway VHS only?
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Camera Obscura
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#286 Post by Camera Obscura »

Perhaps it does make sense to count Riget I separately from part II since the series was originally conceived to consist of just the initial four one-hour episodes. In the end, though, I can only see it as one series, because it just takes off where part I ended and expands the storylines from part I with just a few new characters. Perhaps I'll just place them at the number one and two spot respectively. It's all the same to me, as long as I can put them on my list.

Two other Danish competitors for my list are Nattevagten/ Nightwatch (1994) and Pusher (1996) by Nicolas Winding Refn. I haven't seen Nattevagten in quite a while, so I'm not sure if I'll be as impressed as I was back then. It might not break any new ground, but as far as slasher/serial killer films go, it's one of the better ones out there I think, and enormously lifted by the first rate cast.

The already mentioned Michael Verhoeven's Das schreckliche Mädchen/The Nasty Girl (1990) is a stand-out in that wasteland of German Cinema in the late eighties and early nineties. Verhoeven uses Syberberg-like backscreen projections in quite a funny and disturbing tale of a young woman's (a phenomenal Lena Stolze) fight against the cover-up of a Bavarian town's nazi-past by the local authorities. That one will defintely make it somewhere in the thirties.

And don't forget Aki Kaurismäki's utterly ridiculous parody of a group of idiotic Parisian Bohemiens La vie de bohème (1992). One of Kaurismäki's funniest. Drifting Clouds (1996) might also make it.
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zedz
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#287 Post by zedz »

Camera Obscura wrote:The already mentioned Michael Verhoeven's Das schreckliche Mädchen/The Nasty Girl (1990) is a stand-out in that wasteland of German Cinema in the late eighties and early nineties. Verhoeven uses Syberberg-like backscreen projections in quite a funny and disturbing tale of a young woman's (a phenomenal Lena Stolze) fight against the cover-up of a Bavarian town's nazi-past by the local authorities. That one will defintely make it somewhere in the thirties.
I'll second that as a terrific film. For a film that is completely drenched in Brechtian alienation effects, it's marvellously involving. Is it out on a decent DVD anywhere?
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domino harvey
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#288 Post by domino harvey »

Arrow released it in R2
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Camera Obscura
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#289 Post by Camera Obscura »

domino harvey wrote:Arrow released it in R2
That's the one. It does have rather obtrusive burnt-in yellow subtitles, but it's the only English-friendly release out there, I think. It also features a 20 minute interview with Verhoeven.

The R2 German Kinowelt-release is in German only. Kinowelt released a Verhoeven-box as well. Again, no English subs.
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colinr0380
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#290 Post by colinr0380 »

I've only just remembered about a great eligible film, Shinya Tsukamoto's Bullet Ballet from 1998. The film expands upon themes from Tsukamoto's previous films (alienation, self destructive urges, fetishisation of weaponry, the difficulty of love or any other connection between two people) by setting it in a more realistic world than his previous sci-fi/horror themed films. Tokyo Fist from 1995 which came before seems to have been the transition film taking themes of bodily mutation from the Tetsuo films and moving them into more 'real world' areas of piercing and boxing, but even this film had the protagonist and his girlfriend being inducted into the strange world of boxing clubs and a love triangle by the return of an old schoolfriend, a world frightening in a different way from the couple's coldly inhumane urban environment (the split between the fleshy, sweaty, sexual world of the boxer and the sterile, cold, high rise world of the couple at the beginning of the film sort of makes Tokyo Fist into Tsukamoto's Crash. Although similar imagery was used in Tetsuo II: Body Hammer which Tokyo Fist makes a good matched pair with - the homoerotic shots of body builders in Tetsuo II gives way to a bleak, blue tinged technological landscape (where a literal nuclear family regins supreme!) and is then played out in reverse in the later film as the characters in a sense regain their humanity, and individuality, against an alienated backdrop). A Snake of June also returned to this idea of an outsider upending a vaguely troubled and unconnecting, but still ticking along, relationship with shattering but also liberating consequences. Tsukamoto himself often played these disruptive outsider figures in the films - often seeming frightening and omnisciently powerful with access to forbidden knowledge at first but soon revealed as being as downtrodden and pathetically vulnerable as the main characters, just with a twisted way of responding to their downtrodden state (whether it is transforming oneself into a human/metal hyrbid monster in Tetsuo, pummelling himself into oblivion in Tokyo Fist, or stalking and trying to sexually liberate the telephone operator who helped with the suicidal tendencies of the cancer sufferer in A Snake Of June)

However Bullet Ballet takes these same ideas and keeps them extremely grounded. The Tsukamoto character who is normally the mysterious peripheral character in the other films becomes the principle figure in this one, playing an advertising executive called Goda who returns home one evening to find his girlfriend has committed suicide for no apparent reason. He becomes obsessed with why she did it and wanting to own a gun, maybe to commit suicide himself or simply just to understand her final actions more clearly by holding a similar weapon to the one she used to kill herself. The initial section of the film focuses on his attempts to get hold of a gun, from surreptitiously paying a criminal for one (but being conned out of his cash for a toy gun weighted with sand!), to trying to build one himself, before finally being provided with the real thing by a mysterious foreign woman in exchange for marrying her so she can stay in the country legally.

This runs parallel with another story strand of a bunch of young gang members trying to prove themselves and move up in their organisation. Their activities are initially violent but childish acts - the one female member Chisato has a death wish stunt of standing on the edge of subway station platforms as trains pass by. The gang initially encounters Goda in an alley and viciously beat him while finding Goda's own lack of concern for his safety, almost numbed following his girlfriend's death, amusing. However the gang paradoxically save Goda because instead of following a suicidal path he moves towards seeking revenge on the gang, initially with his homemade gun, which fails to work properly when he confronts Chisato and the gang leader in an alley behind their nightclub hangout. Beaten again Goda limps away from the scene.

When the gang leader is told by his superior to kill a local policeman in a display of loyalty, the young man remembers Goda's gun and steals it to perform the act, leading to Goda chasing across town to get his gun back before the crime is committed after being alerted to the fact by Chisato. As he runs there and back Chisato herself shows her growing fascination with Goda's lack of fear of death that matches her own by doing a Faye Wong in Chungking Express style tour of his apartment. The pair begin a tenuous relationship but less as potential lovers than as a kind of uncommunicative father and rebellious daughter, while Goda is getting pulled more into the gang's activities as he intervenes during a fight between rival gangs - taking the opportunity to put his violent feelings to a practical and cathartic purpose.

Eventually the gang's childish hijinks have severe consequences in a plotline that touches on elements from Tokyo Fist as one member after talking to a friend in the gym who tells him proudly of the training he is doing for his big boxing match and the great career he has planned out in front of him, casually shoots the boxer. The anger of those abandoned by the world and driven into the underworld gangs or from the mainstream of society feel towards those people who seem to have gotten all the breaks is a big theme of the film - whether it is Goda's ordered life being thrown into disarray by his girlfriend's inexplicable, and maybe preventable, suicide at the beginning of the film; the anger the gang leader feels towards the young policeman he sets out to shoot who has a decent career and family and who looks down on him as being nothing; the same guy's embarrassment at going behind the gang's back and applying for a job at Goda's old advertising agency; or Chisato's despairing look near the end of the film from the roof of a building at other teenagers her age taking exams which will open doors into society that she will never have access to.

Unfortunately the boxer who was killed had connections and someone takes it upon themselves to start killing off everyone within the gang. The film climaxes with Goda aligning himself with the gang at their hideout as they fearfully wait for the arrival of the mysterious killer, who turns out to be the boxer's grandfather, a veteran of the Second World War (someone who experienced real warfare rather than the more childishly flippant gangland stuff of the younger generations, and tellingly someone of a generation older than Goda himself. This killer is played in a cameo by Hisashi Igawa, who played Kurogane in Kurosawa's Ran, with all the samurai connotations that brings with it, as well as the sense of a more venerable and honourable mode of filmmaking that has passed). The gang members treating the situation as a game are swiftly dispatched while those who take the life or death situation seriously are spared with only a vicious beating, including Goda and Chisato.

It is a magnificent film, Tsukamoto's best I feel. It deepens themes from his previous films and ties them together into a powerful coherent statment on love and loss and also touches on the rifts between generations, immigration and foreigners in Japan, the contrast between the safe real surface world and the hidden underworld of gang violence and dark alleys and the difficulties of moving back to the official world once you have become immersed in the darker one, the ways that self hatred can express itself as suicidal tendencies or externalised violence, and the ways that dangerous weaponry only intensifies conflicts that weren't particularly intended to have fatal consequences set against the brisk efficiency of someone without a particular interest in the power of violence but simply driven by vengeance.

In a coda that ties in with the theme from earlier Tsukamoto films of the outsider shaking up a flawed but working situation, in this case the violent gang being destroyed, that acts as a kind of cathartic liberation for those who survive, after burning the bodies the wounded Chisato and Goda go their separate ways in opposite directions, at first walking then running faster and faster into an uncertain future.

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cysiam
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#291 Post by cysiam »

I've followed the last few lists but didn't participate. I think I'm going to jump in on this one, but a cursory glance at my favorites is disappointingly low on foreign films. Any recommendations of non-American films not to miss from this decade? Any info would be appreciated.

Also, thanks to all for the Miami Blues recommendation. What a strange wonderful film. The entire cast is on, especially Baldwin who seems to be having a lot of fun with the role.
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swo17
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#292 Post by swo17 »

I think most of these have already been mentioned if you read through the thread carefully, but what the hell, here's a bunch of foreign films in one place. They might not all make my list but I'm considering most of them:

any Kieslowski
any Kiarostami
any Wong
A Brighter Summer Day (Yang)
La promesse (Dardennes)
Underground (Kusturica)
La ceremonie (Chabrol)
Riget (Von Trier)
Rohmer's Four Seasons
The Lovers on the Bridge (Carax)
Fucking Amal/Show Me Love (Moodysson)
Beau travail (Denis)
Satantango (Tarr)
Audition (Miike)
Sonatine (Kitano)
Food (Svankmajer)
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ptatler
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#293 Post by ptatler »

cysiam wrote:... a cursory glance at my favorites is disappointingly low on foreign films.
Yeah, there's a decided dearth on my list, too. I really want to at least catch up with the Yang film, UNDERGROUND, and anything by the Dardennes. I work two jobs and have two kids under 3, so it's hard to find time for a SATANTANGO (much as I'd love to). In the end, my list will be rather embarrassing given the esteemed company it will be in.

Luckily, my Oughties list will be broader-minded. I've had more opportunities to see foreign and more obscure films the last ten years.

The only film angling for top of my 90s list now is DEAD MAN. I did catch up with SINK OR SWIM, zedz, and was a bit nonplussed. But it's probably a matter of my taste; stock footage married to spacey, ponderous narration isn't usually my cup of tea. I found SANS SOLEIL mostly dull, too.

If anyone is interested, I've compiled a rudimentary Excel sheet of most of the films discussed here thusfar. PM me and I'll email it.
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zedz
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#294 Post by zedz »

swo17 wrote:I think most of these have already been mentioned if you read through the thread carefully, but what the hell, here's a bunch of foreign films in one place. They might not all make my list but I'm considering most of them:

any Kieslowski
any Kiarostami
any Wong
A Brighter Summer Day (Yang)
La promesse (Dardennes)
Underground (Kusturica)
La ceremonie (Chabrol)
Riget (Von Trier)
Rohmer's Four Seasons
The Lovers on the Bridge (Carax)
Fucking Amal/Show Me Love (Moodysson)
Beau travail (Denis)
Satantango (Tarr)
Audition (Miike)
Sonatine (Kitano)
Food (Svankmajer)
I think you can safely add to this list (in terms of consensus recommendations):

Any Hou
Any Tsai (The Hole may be the best starting point)
Irma Vep (Assayas, and L'eau froide, if you can find it)
Van Gogh (Pialat)
The Quince Tree Sun (Erice)

And expand the above recommendations to:

Any Denis (J'ai pas sommeil is available, and Nenette et Boni is on the horizon in R1, I believe)
Any Kitano (excpet for maybe Getting Any and Kikujiro)

And somebody (not me) is sure to scream "Almodovar!" in a crowded theatre in about five seconds.
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Camera Obscura
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#295 Post by Camera Obscura »

Call me a fool, I don't care, but I think L.A. Story (1991) with Steve Martin is gonna make my list. I have a completely irrational love for that film.

Are there are any other list-worthy comedies for the 90s?
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knives
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#296 Post by knives »

Rushmore?
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domino harvey
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#297 Post by domino harvey »

Camera Obscura wrote:Are there are any other list-worthy comedies for the 90s?
I'm glad you asked, because I was looking at my DVD shelf the other day and realized I had forgot to mention one of my favorite underseen comedies, Freaked. Terrific practical special effects and a strong forward momentum help the picture overcome some of its more regrettable instances of bathroom humor. Randy Quaid has at least two of my all time favorite movie quote lines in the picture, but I still fondly remember William Sadler's line as the best of the film:
Spoiler
(Calmly interrupting a board meeting to take the floor) "I'd just like to say that those who oppose us will stand knee-deep in the blood of their loved ones"
It's definitely of a mid-90s aesthetic sensibility and may be too weird for its own sake, but its Mad magazine zaniness generally comes off very well (and makes me wonder why Alex Winter didn't meet the level of success that Reeves found post-Bill and Ted)
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John Cope
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#298 Post by John Cope »

zedz wrote:
swo17 wrote:I think most of these have already been mentioned if you read through the thread carefully, but what the hell, here's a bunch of foreign films in one place. They might not all make my list but I'm considering most of them:

any Kieslowski
any Kiarostami
any Wong
A Brighter Summer Day (Yang)
La promesse (Dardennes)
Underground (Kusturica)
La ceremonie (Chabrol)
Riget (Von Trier)
Rohmer's Four Seasons
The Lovers on the Bridge (Carax)
Fucking Amal/Show Me Love (Moodysson)
Beau travail (Denis)
Satantango (Tarr)
Audition (Miike)
Sonatine (Kitano)
Food (Svankmajer)
I think you can safely add to this list (in terms of consensus recommendations):

Any Hou
Any Tsai (The Hole may be the best starting point)
Irma Vep (Assayas, and L'eau froide, if you can find it)
Van Gogh (Pialat)
The Quince Tree Sun (Erice)

And expand the above recommendations to:

Any Denis (J'ai pas sommeil is available, and Nenette et Boni is on the horizon in R1, I believe)
Any Kitano (excpet for maybe Getting Any and Kikujiro)

And somebody (not me) is sure to scream "Almodovar!" in a crowded theatre in about five seconds.
And I say only because it needs to be said, "any Oliveira".

Seriously, as much as I love many of these other artists and films I could easily commit to a list of nothing but MO's 90's works from Non straight on through to La Lettre without any reservations at all.
Camera Obscura wrote:Are there are any other list-worthy comedies for the 90s?
I have a lot of affection for a neglected little B movie gem from 1991 called Blood and Concrete: A Love Story, which has a terrific cast and lots of great comic scenes. I will confess to a Billy Zane fetish but I still retain enough of a semblance of self- respect to prevent me from recommending, say, Silence of the Hams.
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Murdoch
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#299 Post by Murdoch »

Camera Obscura wrote:Call me a fool, I don't care, but I think L.A. Story (1991) with Steve Martin is gonna make my list. I have a completely irrational love for that film.

Are there are any other list-worthy comedies for the 90s?
Well Bowfinger will definitely make mine, it must be Martin's hypnotic white hair.
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kaujot
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Re: 1990s List Discussion and Suggestions

#300 Post by kaujot »

I love Bowfinger, if for no other reason than Martin's clip-on ponytail.
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